The Escapist Community is a tad too toxic

[Johnny Novgorod]

Nothing against The Escapist, that's just how the internet works.

If you're automatically sure that you know what reality is and who and what is
really important - if you want to operate on your default-setting - then
you, like me, will not consider possibilities that aren't pointless and
annoying. But if you've really learned how to think, how to pay attention,
then you will know you have other options. - David Foster Wallace

And then he killed himself :/

............................................. Well that ruined my night ............ didn't know he killed himself. ...
Wow that .. .. hmmm . ... . .. .. . I pray he rests in peace then. His writing is still inspirational to me, though it makes me wonder how he fought depression for that long while making such optimistic messages such as this.

Sorry man. I read This is Water too and believe me, I was just as disappointed as you are now. Although I don't think it necessarily takes away from the writing.

 

[Strazdas]

I have not read Ms Marvel nor do i care who got a Hugo award but i do care about the wellbeing of this forum considering i have made it my home for the last 5 years.

What i state here is my observations and since i am not omnipotent it is obviously possible i may be wrong here. but this is what it looks like for a forum regular whos been reading almost daily for years.

There is a group of people on this forum that seems to post with the sole reason of baiting attacks and generally disturb the flow of the forum as much as they can get away with. Then there is another group that seems to be hell bent on stopping the first group. Ironically due to the second group being more blunt about it, they seem to be getting banned for it. Then whenever i see a neutral talk about this.... forum war.... they usually get a warning as well. So this leads to a lot of bad blood between the users and moderators which only increases the tension on the forums. Then of course there is other things that forum rules does not allow me to talk about, which in itself causes problems on the forums. So the forums are stuck in war mode which creates a lot of problems for people that dont want to fight.

 

[Creator002]

Suggesting that it won because 'diversity' seemed to be the main point. It's hardly like we have to pretend that certain people aren't always quick to claim that people do things for 'diversity' and complain about it.

I agree with the OP's statement that the forums are a bit too toxic, but for this reason. It seems almost anything can be turned into a debate about race (though I haven't seen this much, personally, for a bit), sexism or diversity at the drop of a hat. Not to mention the number of actual threads about those topics.

 

[vallorn]

What attempts were made to be more inclusive?

How about the decision to allow GG threads to exist on the Escapist?

I imagined that wasn't an attempt at inclusivity so much as it not being against the rules and them not being willing to take the step to say they didn't want it.

Because of course if one personally doesn't like something one should ignore all the rules and become a dictator. Obviously a benevolent one since one knows better than all the uncivilized proles with different opinions. /s

Back on point, There's nothing in what you wrote there which stands up to evidence based scrutiny. I refer to the GJP leaks where we see Ben Kuchera, failed head of the PA Report and professional hack, leaning on Greg Tito, a high ranking employee of one of his competitors, to try and get him to swing in with the narrative that the professional bullies, charlatans and arseholes, who mostly made up the GJP mailing list, were spinning. If the staff were as close to banning GG from the forums as you imply then the level of peer pressure felt by employees like Mr Tito would easily have enabled them to justify banning it somehow, that it was not banned seems to suggest that the staff at this marvelous website were not close to banning it but the records do show that they and the moderation team here policed the topic heavily for any rule breakers so as to keep the topic under control.

These are not the practices of a website who was barely allowing something, they are the practices of a website who are not going to punish innocent forumgoers and consumers of it's content because of some lies printed by their competition.

 

[Zhukov]

I find that to be the source of the toxicity. An OP posing a question, or making a statement, and the majority of posters latching onto one sentence that they personally take issue with. They ignore the rest of the OP, or more often the main point, in order to focus on something irrelevant to the discussion as a whole. I could find more examples but your already on the site. Just look around.

*reads thread*

That thread went to shit because many people are familiar with the OP. He's constantly doomsaying about political correctness.

So when he makes a thread claiming that a comic about a female Muslim superhero didn't deserve an award people start maaking some obvious conclusions. Especially when he ends his post with, "It just seems to me it got an award for "diversity" rather than actual merits which makes me wonder what the fuck happened to our culture." People latched onto that sentence because it was the crux of his issue and the main thrust of his argument.

That said, you're not wrong about the forum having essentially divided itself along battle lines. A lot of the activity is the same set of faces repeatedly clashing over similar topics. Hell, I'd probably be one of them if I posted more often.

And that girl was totally asking for it, everyone knows she is a slut anyways, right?

Uh huh. Internet forum arguments and sexual assault. Totally comparable situations. Shall we start making holocaust analogies next? First they came for the shitposters...

Whatever someone's personal feelings towards the OP of the tread may be, coming into it just to attack them instead of at least trying to use the topic as it was intended, to be discussed, is just wrong. There is no excuse, and that sort of justification perfectly highlights the issue. It happening time to time is one thing, but this is a frequent issue.

Someone latching onto that sentence after jumping to a conclusion really makes it come off as arguing in bad faith. It demonstrates taking a topic and turning it into a petty personal battleground, and really just makes this OP's point for him.

The forums are more toxic then they have been, and the habit of some users to join a thread just to shit it up and post petty jabs or derail for personal political pedantry is a large reason why. It breeds hostility and between that and the general issue of passive aggression in the forums, it is no wonder so many in the community are not happy with things.

People didn't latch on to some random sentence and berate him over it. That was the core of his argument. They were addressing his argument.

Fact: Ms Marvel won an award.
Opinion: I do not think Ms Marvel merits this award.
Conclusion: The award was only given because of diversity and political correctness.
Addendum: Society is doomed.

There wasn't anything else there to discuss.

 

[Shock and Awe]

I agree, I've been coming here damn near a decade, and when I first started coming it was a bit pretentious, but still fairly accepting as long as you upped your game compared to other forums. These days though its incredibly judgmental regarding anything concerning politics.

 

[VanQ]

What? Escapist is one of the huggiest hugboxes on the internet. Good luck finding a place that suits your needs, have you tried NeoGAF? They'll ban people for going against the hivemind/groupthink over there. Might suit you better if you can't handle discourse or people disagreeing with you.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Ironically the various attempts to be more inclusive have only driven people further apart.

What attempts were made to be more inclusive?

Various attempts? General talk about how the community needs to be more welcoming and accepting?

I mean what actual attempts because I am utterly unaware of any.

General talk isn't exactly an attempt at anything...

I didn't mean active attempts - it's not like the Escapist's been putting out recruiting booths on the streets. But there's definitely been a tonal shift on this site and in gaming in general about including everyone.

That's kind of ironic because a lot of the changes that happened in that name have driven a lot of people away from the site.
Many of them from fringe groups that are generally marginalised in society anyway, but it's certainly been something I saw a lot of.
(Because a lot of them were my friends, for one.)

Making a big song and dance out of your supposed inclusive policies isn't worth much if the actual actions taken merely end up driving a lot of people that were here already away.

Still, I don't know what to make of the forums here anymore.
They feel vastly more hostile than I remember them from years back, but at the same time I've also become substantially more sensitive and easy to upset, so that may be a little misleading.

(Arguably though what makes me upset basically amounts to a form of PTSD as far as I can tell. It's kinda sad you can get even mild PTSD merely from certain incredibly toxic things that can happen online - no of my issues were caused by this site, I might add - but it would seem to be true... Being triggered, in the actual sense, not just the jokes people like to make is really no fun at all. And then there's the random nerves and anxiety that come not from running into something that will upset you, but merely from the thought that you might run into something that upsets you...)

The real question though is, what can be done about it?

How can we hope to undo some of the damage that seems to have been caused?

 

[McElroy]

And I just want to scream...

[HEADING=1]MAYBE PEOPLE LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS THAN YOU![/HEADING]

I mean holy shit is that so hard to understand that people simply like/hate things you don't like/hate, no it has to be some political motive!

You know who also liked different things than me? Hitler. And... um, Kim Jong-un! And ISIS too.

Okay, I often follow the flame trails in the forums. There's a lot of fun reading here. With experience it has become much easier to recognize flamebait, liars and trolls, and the best part is that you're not allowed to call them out - which in turn leads to a lot of passive aggressiveness. Activity as a whole is whittling away nevertheless.

 

[dragoongfa]

Imho the chief problem with these forums isn't the toxicity but what causes it.

There are only so many ways to call bullshit on something without breaking a loosely interpreted forum rule. If someone's aggravation can't be vented then that someone will become toxic eventually.

 

[runic knight]

seriously dude if there is a Godwin law version of rape that would be it. That was kind of poor taste. There is a time and a place for rape analogy and it isn't when you disagree with someone on the Internet.

Third post on the thread, people mention victim blaming. The most frequent use of the term I have seen relates to issues with rape, so yes, I will use it as an analogy, especially when trying for an obviously hyperbolic one. Maybe I should have gone godwin's though, make it hitler-related somehow.
Poor taste, perhaps, though I italic'd it and all that as well. The fact it is an excessive comparison was intentionally done to hammer the point in.

Beside your complaints about it not being proper though, do you have a complaint against its accuracy? Or despite it being over the top, does the analogy itself work to express the idea of a defense of bad actions because the target they were directed at was not deemed socially acceptable? And was it not done in a way that shocks someone hopefully enough to make them realize what a terrible weak defensive argument it really makes?

That thread went to shit because many people are familiar with the OP. He's constantly doomsaying about political correctness.
"And that girl was totally asking for it, everyone knows she is a slut anyways, right?"

Uh huh. Internet forum arguments and sexual assault. Totally comparable situations. Shall we start making holocaust analogies next? First they came for the shitposters...

If you want to and it fits, go ahead. Hell, "godwin's law" merely relates to the inevitability of such references, it says nothing of their validity, and nor should it. But it seems your complaint is merely indignation at the reference as if that matters in the least to if it works or not. Part of the point, I wanted it to jolt you a little, I had hopes it would make you realize how bad that sort of defense is. I see a lot of pearl-clutching about the analogy, but no one seems to have anything else to say about it. So I guess I must repeat.

Beside your complaints about it not being proper though, do you have any complaint against its accuracy? Or despite it being over the top, does the analogy itself work to express the idea of a defense of bad actions because the target they were directed at was not deemed socially acceptable? And was it not done in a way that shocks someone hopefully enough to make you realize what a terrible weak defensive argument it really makes?

People didn't latch on to some random sentence and berate him over it. That was the core of his argument. They were addressing his argument.

Fact: Ms Marvel won an award.
Opinion: I do not think Ms Marvel merits this award.
Conclusion: The award was only given because of diversity and political correctness.
Addendum: Society is doomed.

There wasn't anything else there to discuss.

Well, lets see. There is the merits or lack there of of the comic as to why it might win in the first place. There is the competition and their merits or lack there of in judging. There was competing stories in the same bracket. There is the controversy about the puppies stuff. There was the fact it is a comic and not a book or short story in a more conventional sense. Really, it had a lot to make a topic out of, some people actually tried to do just that, but others, well, they did what you just described, they saw the poster, leaped at it to take shots at them.

Yeah, the "woe is the culture" stuff is silly, but so what? If people didn't think there was anything on that bone, they should have, as the staff has said many times before, not posted. It still sounds like a weak justification because of how you look at them. Poland was just asking for that invasion, look how weak their military was, amIright?.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

It's not just you noticing. The forum has basically become an even worse version of R&P.

Which is usually the reason that I pretty much avoid opinionated discussion threads. It's like someone farts and either discusses how harmful it is or how pleasant it seems to them. Then, someone else has to fart to compare it to the original and add their two cents in and then, before you know it, everyone is chiming in and the shit stinks so much you just want to avoid the damn thing altogether.

...I think I might have to avoid watching South Park just before I sleep for awhile.

 

[Silence]

I read the OP. Then I read the second post.

Then I just wanted to scream: Get a little bit of self-awareness, please?!

I don't know how it was earlier, but some kind of really existing basement, which contains hostilities. And a strict policy of no talk of politics outside of GID and R&P could work wonders. At least this is what I know from other forums. Also, a lot of people should be more light-hearted. A joke is a joke, and taking offense should not really exist. Especially on the internet.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

This forum is still by far the least Toxic place on the net (hyperbole, I haven't been everywhere on the net). As far as I've experienced the anger seems to dissipate once a thread unrelated to the pressure points is broached. People who in one thread were passionately disagreeing with each other can be pleasant to each other in another. Few people carry disdain and ill will with them throughout the forums, though they have made themselves known by this point.

Go to the any number of chan forums or various reddit subforums, or the underbelly of tumblr... or youtube comments, and that is toxicity. That is vicious mean spirited, nihilistic, disrespectful, egotistical toxicity.

The worst thing you get here are people talking past each other. Occassionaly some nasties arrive but they have short lifespans thanks to a relatively strong moderation group which also allow a plethora of topics to be discussed.

There are a few people who have taken their grievances of this site onto other sites, where they freely talk shit on staff and fellow forum members and (some) have even plotted against said members. Those are toxic people as their entire persona seems to exude malice towards other members. If you are at that point, take a step back and realise what your doing, you're so obsessed with you anger and frustration that you carry it into other forums... that is the definition of toxic.

As for the rape analogy that seems be used by a few folks here... what the actual fuck guys?

 

[Dragonlayer]

To a certain extent, I agree: I've been on bad forums before but there's something particularly aggravating about that special kind of toxicity that drenches parts of this site, that passive-aggressive *technically* not against the rules twattery that crops up in familiar topics, often from familiar posters. Since no-one will listen to my suggestions that we just decimate the site's userbase, my advice is to avoid dangerous thread topics such as "Sex/race/politics/gender/social justice/anything-not-gameplay in gaming" and invest in some stress-balls.

 

[hermes]

Yeah, I agree. I used to spend a lot of time in the escapist in general, but with many of the best content creators leaving, and the community growing a lot more politicized and toxic on itself, I stopped. Now I only come here once a day to check on the news and the threads in the home page.

 

[FalloutJack]

Not at all. You see, everyone on the Escapist has a PH-Balance indicator in their profiles. Once they get to acidic, they get scooped out. It's science! Still, the quality of some people's posts could always use improvement. That's not toxicity. That's just quality control. And where there's control, there's Maxwell Smart, which means that's his responsibility.

 

[Zhukov]

That thread went to shit because many people are familiar with the OP. He's constantly doomsaying about political correctness.
"And that girl was totally asking for it, everyone knows she is a slut anyways, right?"

Uh huh. Internet forum arguments and sexual assault. Totally comparable situations. Shall we start making holocaust analogies next? First they came for the shitposters...

If you want to and it fits, go ahead. Hell, "godwin's law" merely relates to the inevitability of such references, it says nothing of their validity, and nor should it. But it seems your complaint is merely indignation at the reference as if that matters in the least to if it works or not. Part of the point, I wanted it to jolt you a little, I had hopes it would make you realize how bad that sort of defense is. I see a lot of pearl-clutching about the analogy, but no one seems to have anything else to say about it. So I guess I must repeat.

Beside your complaints about it not being proper though, do you have any complaint against its accuracy? Or despite it being over the top, does the analogy itself work to express the idea of a defense of bad actions because the target they were directed at was not deemed socially acceptable? And was it not done in a way that shocks someone hopefully enough to make you realize what a terrible weak defensive argument it really makes?

Oh, I'm not saying your analogy was improper or offensive. I'm saying it was ridiculous.

You're comparing someone starting an argument and having people argue with them to some woman being raped because she was "asking for it".

People didn't latch on to some random sentence and berate him over it. That was the core of his argument. They were addressing his argument.

Fact: Ms Marvel won an award.
Opinion: I do not think Ms Marvel merits this award.
Conclusion: The award was only given because of diversity and political correctness.
Addendum: Society is doomed.

There wasn't anything else there to discuss.

Well, lets see. There is the merits or lack there of of the comic as to why it might win in the first place. There is the competition and their merits or lack there of in judging. There was competing stories in the same bracket. There is the controversy about the puppies stuff. There was the fact it is a comic and not a book or short story in a more conventional sense. Really, it had a lot to make a topic out of, some people actually tried to do just that, but others, well, they did what you just described, they saw the poster, leaped at it to take shots at them.

You mean all that stuff that wasn't in the OP?

OP presented a topic of discussion. That discussion was based on his belief, or at least his accusation, that a comic won an award just due to diversity points. That's it. That's all there was to discuss. And people discussed it. And argued about it. Which is presumably what the OP intended.

The only other thing the OP mentioned was his view that a Deadpool comic was better. Which doesn't seem terribly relevant since as far as I'm aware Deadpool wasn't a nominee.

Let me try my hand at this analogy thing. If I were to start a thread in which I say that, ohhhh, say... the only reason people take up martial arts is because they are compensating for their underdeveloped genitals, am I "victim" if a few resident martial arts enthusiasts decide to take me to task?