The European Parliamentary Elections and the EU in general

[Ken Korda]

Ok, so reading this thread upset me,

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.116602

I always held the assumption that in this day and age, to beleive the EU had not benefit its members was a position only held by the very ignorant and naive. Yet having seen this opinion voiced on the Escapist (a site well known for its intellectual standards) I was unpleasantly surprised.
So, with the elections almost upon us, I put it to you 'Why do you not like the EU?' and as a secondary issue, if you have any questions regarding the functioning of the European Union, I will do my best to answer them.

Please, let me know why you are upset and I will endeavour to put your mind at ease.

(Sorry for being so patronising)

 

[Lord George]

Because they want to try and absorb the UK into part of a larger society, we should stay independent, we should keep our trading rights with them, but apart from that we should stay away from the E.U.

 

[Zac_Dai]

Yeah I support the EU myself and find nearly no one else does.

Its not perfect but its necessary in my view for European countries to compete in a world that's going to be even more dominated by continental powers in the future.

Does anybody think that USA would be better off if it was just 50 independent countries with a trade agreement?

 

[Jharry5]

Because they want to try and absorb the UK into part of a larger society, we should stay independent, we should keep our trading rights with them, but apart from that we should stay away from the E.U.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it in a nutshell.
But my main qualm is that they're trying to impose one rule (on any given subject) on all 27 member countries. Each of the member countries have their own conditions and circumstances, thus making governing them with a 'one rule fits all' mentality is surely not going to work. Thinking that imposing a rule that'd work well in all 27 countries of the EU is naive, in my opinion.

As I said in the thread the OP mentioned, the thoughts behind the EU are noble; all these countries working together to talk through problems instead of fighting them out. But the problem with the EU is that it has become a beurocratic hive, full of people just wanting to grab more power for the EU...

I also think that comparing the EU to the USA is not a good idea; what worked well for one may not work well in another. Circumstances change.

Thanks, but no thanks...

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I do like the EU. I am all for European integration. If only Hitler had won the war ...just kidding. But I am for European integration, at the moment it seems like a glorified trade agreement (agree with what Zac Dai said), but it's early days yet.

There's always going to be some **** in a suit running things and I don't really care where they are from, pretty much any western democracy is good IMHO, it's all basically the same.

 

[Martymer]

Because they want to try and absorb the UK into part of a larger society, we should stay independent, we should keep our trading rights with them, but apart from that we should stay away from the E.U.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it in a nutshell.
But my main qualm is that they're trying to impose one rule (on any given subject) on all 27 member countries. Each of the member countries have their own conditions and circumstances, thus making governing them with a 'one rule fits all' mentality is surely not going to work. Thinking that imposing a rule that'd work well in all 27 countries of the EU is naive, in my opinion.

As I said in the thread the OP mentioned, the thoughts behind the EU are noble; all these countries working together to talk through problems instead of fighting them out. But the problem with the EU is that it has become a beurocratic hive, full of people just wanting to grab more power for the EU...

I also think that comparing the EU to the USA is not a good idea; what worked well for one may not work well in another. Circumstances change.

Thanks, but no thanks...

What he said. I'm all for the idea, but the execution has been awful so far.

 

[Snugglebunny]

Bo-o-ring

This is why living in the US of A rocks!

 

[DannyBoy451]

Bo-o-ring

This is why living in the US of A rocks!

Enjoy your dubious two party system.

Also: WHO'S VOTING ON THURSDAY?!

 

[Zamn]

WHy is the EU crap?
Because we pay more into than we get out. We are pretty much single handedly trying to pull up countries such as Latvia and the old Eastern Block countries.
We are paying for Frances crop subsidies.
We will never turn over to the Euro.
The EU parliament is hilariously shit. Human rights? By that they mean give prisoners PS3's, even when a hard working average Joe may not be able to afford one.
Or claim everything is racist and wipe out all heritage in an attempt not to offend the mentally retarded.

What benefits does the EU have? The EU market, but this doesn't save as much money was we put into it.

This is classic rubbish spewed but the viciously anti-European gutter press in Britian, total uninformed rubbish. Some of these points are just laughable.

Annoyed about having to support Eastern European countries? This is nothing like the amount of money the UK spends balancing the budget of the Northern Ireland and Scottish Governments, yet these same people are utterly opposed to further devolution of power. If they really are so in favour of national self-determination what's the problem with Scottish Independance? There's a fundamental contradiction in ideology here.

Paying for French crop subsidies? France is a net contributor to the EU budget, same as the UK, they're putting in more than they're getting out as you complain so much about.

Never turn over to the Euro? Maybe not, personally I'd rather be able to spend the same money when I go on holidays than have a pretty picture of the Queen on my money, but that's just me.

Human Rights? The EU has done a huge amount for human rights in many countries, for instance the European Court of Justice forced the Irish government to end discrimination against homosexuals


If we're going to be honest about it, Britian's opposition to the EU is based on a somewhat pathetic clinging to the colonial past. Britian desperately needs to think of itself as a great power even though that day is long gone, and so is fiercly opposed to any encroachment on its independance from the non-Anglophone world, but is still prepared to act as a lapdog for the United States in Iraq as cooperation with the US is less offensive to the memory of the British Empire than cooperation with Europe.

/essay over

 

[hypothetical fact]

This is an example of the liberal bullshit of the EU courts. If you have nothing to hide, then everyone's DNA should be on a database in case a crime is committed, not when the crime is committed, keep a record, because it's too bloody late.

If you have nothing to hide you wouldn't mind a camera glued to your head and a tracking chip under your skin. It would also be far too easy to abuse because people wouldn't take their children to get their dna analysed. The only way to make sure people that would rather not be on the register get caught is to make the database compulsory. But then I would have to get out my V for Vendetta mask.

Your logic fails to consider that some laws are corrupt and govts do fuck up (like the EU) but if we are all monitored how can there be a protest? Police could arrest the protestors before they start on conspiracy to commit felony charges.

 

[Ken Korda]

This is classic rubbish spewed but the viciously anti-European gutter press in Britian, total uninformed rubbish. Some of these points are just laughable.

Annoyed about having to support Eastern European countries? This is nothing like the amount of money the UK spends balancing the budget of the Northern Ireland and Scottish Governments, yet these same people are utterly opposed to further devolution of power. If they really are so in favour of national self-determination what's the problem with Scottish Independance? There's a fundamental contradiction in ideology here.

Paying for French crop subsidies? France is a net contributor to the EU budget, same as the UK, they're putting in more than they're getting out as you complain so much about.

Never turn over to the Euro? Maybe not, personally I'd rather be able to spend the same money when I go on holidays than have a pretty picture of the Queen on my money, but that's just me.

Human Rights? The EU has done a huge amount for human rights in many countries, for instance the European Court of Justice forced the Irish government to end discrimination against homosexuals


If we're going to be honest about it, Britian's opposition to the EU is based on a somewhat pathetic clinging to the colonial past. Britian desperately needs to think of itself as a great power even though that day is long gone, and so is fiercly opposed to any encroachment on its independance from the non-Anglophone world, but is still prepared to act as a lapdog for the United States in Iraq as cooperation with the US is less offensive to the memory of the British Empire than cooperation with Europe.

/essay over

There is a slight difference between supporting people in the UK, and having your tax money go to a far off country as a compulsory charity.
Okay, maybe we are not paying for the French, but we are getting less out than we are putting in...Surely that seems like a rather big ***** issue.
The euro is a nice idea, but if you were around during the last currency change, it's just a way to hike prices up, and again, I doubt the UK economy will ever reach the same standards of Latvia, unless something like 28 Days Later occurs.
The EU Court has a mix of ups and downs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7764069.stm
This is an example of the liberal bullshit of the EU courts. If you have nothing to hide, then everyone's DNA should be on a database in case a crime is committed, not when the crime is committed, keep a record, because it's too bloody late.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murray_v._United_Kingdom
The guy was as guilty as OJ, but because he was allowed to remain silent and nothing can be inferred from that, regardless of how obvious the situation was, he was awarded £15,000. Fair? Hardly.
Plus there is the possible ruling that would allow employers to discriminate against white men and choose either coloured or disabled people, instead or souly going on who is best for the job. I hope this doesn't get past as it's clear discrimination, put passed of as another term (tired & forgotten the term, some pc bull).

I think what people don't like about the EU is we put in more than we get out of it:
Going on 2007-2013 figures, we'll have a net loss of 57%
57%!!! That's absurd! We put in 103 billion and get out 46 billion euros (on estimates). Anyone who thinks that's a good idea is a lunatic. I'm pretty sure we could spend 57 billion euros on something better than Poland or Romania, like, I don't know, the NHS?

As you have taken the role of the token right-wing, anti-European spkoe-person I'll direct my comments at you. You appear to mainly be concerned about the disparities between the contributions of the UK to the EU and the monetary benefits it receives. There are three points I would like to raise:

1. By contributing money to the post-socialist states in Eastern Europe the Western European countries have increased the stability of their democartic governments. In the early 90's after the end of Soviet rule these countries were attempting to onsturct entirely new systems of government. There was a very real possibility that they could dissolve into dictatorships or civil war; both cases being serious security risks to the West. By contributing money to these countries the West not only saved lives but it also saved a lot of money that would otherwise have to have been spent on the development of new military defence.

2. The EU can act to reistribute money in a more effective manner. By pooling financial resources the states of Europe are able to effectively develop a their economies in the way whihc is most beneficial to pan-European business. Remember, Governments aren't trying to make a profit, they are trying to make life better for their citizens. The Common Market is designed to be advantageous to business thus by contributing to it the UK opens uphuge potential markets for it citizens.

3. Contributions to the EU are capped at 3% of a states GDP. In perspective whilst whatever figure you quoted may sound large it is a very small proportion of the total UK budget.

I admit the EU is not perfect but it is of gret advantage to its members.

Sorry about the long post, as ypu may have guessed I am a complete EU nerd.

And Yes, I will be voting on Thursday

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Really people on here like to hate on it and everything, but they don't realize we'd be in much deeper shit if it didn't exist.

 

[Trivun]

Because they want to try and absorb the UK into part of a larger society, we should stay independent, we should keep our trading rights with them, but apart from that we should stay away from the E.U.

Exactly. The EU started out as a free trade organisation, I studied the EU as part of my A-Level Economics course and the course pretty much said that the EU was meant to be free trade between member states, nothing more. However, beurocracy kicked in and over time the agenda changed to one where it was simply a case of creating a 'United States of Europe'. Best thing we can do is leave the EU for good. We're closer to the US anyway, politically at least, and in fact the North American Free Trade Association (NAFTA) has invited the UK several times to join them, despite us not being within North America. Canada and the US are the big two members there though there are more I believe, and personally I think it would be much better for us to join them. Especially since most of our trade is with the US anyway...

I actually decided to vote Conservative this year (my first year as a legal voter ) but I was seriously tempted for a while by the UKIP...

 

[Trivun]

This is classic rubbish spewed but the viciously anti-European gutter press in Britian, total uninformed rubbish. Some of these points are just laughable.

Annoyed about having to support Eastern European countries? This is nothing like the amount of money the UK spends balancing the budget of the Northern Ireland and Scottish Governments, yet these same people are utterly opposed to further devolution of power. If they really are so in favour of national self-determination what's the problem with Scottish Independance? There's a fundamental contradiction in ideology here.

Paying for French crop subsidies? France is a net contributor to the EU budget, same as the UK, they're putting in more than they're getting out as you complain so much about.

Never turn over to the Euro? Maybe not, personally I'd rather be able to spend the same money when I go on holidays than have a pretty picture of the Queen on my money, but that's just me.

Human Rights? The EU has done a huge amount for human rights in many countries, for instance the European Court of Justice forced the Irish government to end discrimination against homosexuals


If we're going to be honest about it, Britian's opposition to the EU is based on a somewhat pathetic clinging to the colonial past. Britian desperately needs to think of itself as a great power even though that day is long gone, and so is fiercly opposed to any encroachment on its independance from the non-Anglophone world, but is still prepared to act as a lapdog for the United States in Iraq as cooperation with the US is less offensive to the memory of the British Empire than cooperation with Europe.

/essay over

There is a slight difference between supporting people in the UK, and having your tax money go to a far off country as a compulsory charity.
Okay, maybe we are not paying for the French, but we are getting less out than we are putting in...Surely that seems like a rather big ***** issue.
The euro is a nice idea, but if you were around during the last currency change, it's just a way to hike prices up, and again, I doubt the UK economy will ever reach the same standards of Latvia, unless something like 28 Days Later occurs.
The EU Court has a mix of ups and downs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7764069.stm
This is an example of the liberal bullshit of the EU courts. If you have nothing to hide, then everyone's DNA should be on a database in case a crime is committed, not when the crime is committed, keep a record, because it's too bloody late.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murray_v._United_Kingdom
The guy was as guilty as OJ, but because he was allowed to remain silent and nothing can be inferred from that, regardless of how obvious the situation was, he was awarded £15,000. Fair? Hardly.
Plus there is the possible ruling that would allow employers to discriminate against white men and choose either coloured or disabled people, instead or souly going on who is best for the job. I hope this doesn't get past as it's clear discrimination, put passed of as another term (tired & forgotten the term, some pc bull).

I think what people don't like about the EU is we put in more than we get out of it:
Going on 2007-2013 figures, we'll have a net loss of 57%
57%!!! That's absurd! We put in 103 billion and get out 46 billion euros (on estimates). Anyone who thinks that's a good idea is a lunatic. I'm pretty sure we could spend 57 billion euros on something better than Poland or Romania, like, I don't know, the NHS?

As you have taken the role of the token right-wing, anti-European spkoe-person I'll direct my comments at you. You appear to mainly be concerned about the disparities between the contributions of the UK to the EU and the monetary benefits it receives. There are three points I would like to raise:

1. By contributing money to the post-socialist states in Eastern Europe the Western European countries have increased the stability of their democartic governments. In the early 90's after the end of Soviet rule these countries were attempting to onsturct entirely new systems of government. There was a very real possibility that they could dissolve into dictatorships or civil war; both cases being serious security risks to the West. By contributing money to these countries the West not only saved lives but it also saved a lot of money that would otherwise have to have been spent on the development of new military defence.

2. The EU can act to reistribute money in a more effective manner. By pooling financial resources the states of Europe are able to effectively develop a their economies in the way whihc is most beneficial to pan-European business. Remember, Governments aren't trying to make a profit, they are trying to make life better for their citizens. The Common Market is designed to be advantageous to business thus by contributing to it the UK opens uphuge potential markets for it citizens.

3. Contributions to the EU are capped at 3% of a states GDP. In perspective whilst whatever figure you quoted may sound large it is a very small proportion of the total UK budget.

I admit the EU is not perfect but it is of gret advantage to its members.

Sorry about the long post, as ypu may have guessed I am a complete EU nerd.

And Yes, I will be voting on Thursday

Okay then, here's the perfect way to rain on your little parade. By telling the truth.

Point 1. The money wasn't a major factor there. There was always a chance that any money donated would have simply been spent on the military in each of these East European countries anyway, and so we would have caused problems for ourselves even more then. If they didn't start civil wars and infighting when we sent the money, which would have given them the means to do so, then they wouldn't have done it when we hadn't sent the money, simply because of lack of financial means. And as it happens, the money didn't help much anyway, did it? I should know more than any, my dad's side of the family is Serbian. Ever heard of it? Heard of all the stuff that happened down there, the Balkan War, Kosovo, the fracturing of Yugoslavia into the countries that now make up what it once was? True, some of these happened anyway beforehand, but the money didn't make a bit of difference. Even now there's fighting in East Europe, remember the whole Russia-Georgia thing last year?

Point 2. Fine, the common market is useful for our trading with Europe. However, as it happens we actually trade more with North America, mainly the US to be exact. And before you start, I did study the EU and UK trade at A-Level. Economics is such a wonderful subject. Anyway, ever heard of the CAP? Common Agricultural Policy. Basically, member states all donate towards the CAP funds then the money is used to subsidise farmers in the EU. Guess who pays the most? The UK. Guess who gets the most out of it? France. Now, normally this wouldn't be a problem. However, French farmers have always been notoriously inefficient and the EU knows this, yet they still create a drain on the finances of the CAP by giving money to France. Those of us who actually pay get very little out of it, the countries who get the most from the CAP are actually the countries who pay the least into it. How is that fair? Then we pay even more to buy French imports of goods that we can produce easily ourselves. Goods produced using CAP funds. The CAP is a huge drain on our economy and is in fact doing plenty of damage to our own finances, which in turn leads to higher UK government debt, and thus more borrowing from the Bank of England. This pushes interest rates up which leads to less spending in the UK economy. Which is a bad thing for British businesses, leading to a downturn in the UK economy.

Point 3. Again, 3% of the GDP of the country is still a lot. It may not seem like much money, but do you have any idea how much the UK has to spend on? How many different things the government needs to spend money on? Infrastructure, the Armed Forces, public spending, all sorts. Full details can be found on the Budget Report on the UK Government's website. The EU is actually one of the biggest things that we spend money on, given how many factors need to be accounted for in the Budget Report every year. Therefore your last point isn't quite as airtight as you think.

By the way, what do you think about the single currency? I can find plenty of arguments against that too.

 

[DeadpanLunatic]

I have removed my words from this site.