The European Parliamentary Elections and the EU in general

[Ken Korda]

]

Okay then, here's the perfect way to rain on your little parade. By telling the truth.

Point 1. The money wasn't a major factor there. There was always a chance that any money donated would have simply been spent on the military in each of these East European countries anyway, and so we would have caused problems for ourselves even more then. If they didn't start civil wars and infighting when we sent the money, which would have given them the means to do so, then they wouldn't have done it when we hadn't sent the money, simply because of lack of financial means. And as it happens, the money didn't help much anyway, did it? I should know more than any, my dad's side of the family is Serbian. Ever heard of it? Heard of all the stuff that happened down there, the Balkan War, Kosovo, the fracturing of Yugoslavia into the countries that now make up what it once was? True, some of these happened anyway beforehand, but the money didn't make a bit of difference. Even now there's fighting in East Europe, remember the whole Russia-Georgia thing last year?

Point 2. Fine, the common market is useful for our trading with Europe. However, as it happens we actually trade more with North America, mainly the US to be exact. And before you start, I did study the EU and UK trade at A-Level. Economics is such a wonderful subject. Anyway, ever heard of the CAP? Common Agricultural Policy. Basically, member states all donate towards the CAP funds then the money is used to subsidise farmers in the EU. Guess who pays the most? The UK. Guess who gets the most out of it? France. Now, normally this wouldn't be a problem. However, French farmers have always been notoriously inefficient and the EU knows this, yet they still create a drain on the finances of the CAP by giving money to France. Those of us who actually pay get very little out of it, the countries who get the most from the CAP are actually the countries who pay the least into it. How is that fair? Then we pay even more to buy French imports of goods that we can produce easily ourselves. Goods produced using CAP funds. The CAP is a huge drain on our economy and is in fact doing plenty of damage to our own finances, which in turn leads to higher UK government debt, and thus more borrowing from the Bank of England. This pushes interest rates up which leads to less spending in the UK economy. Which is a bad thing for British businesses, leading to a downturn in the UK economy.

Point 3. Again, 3% of the GDP of the country is still a lot. It may not seem like much money, but do you have any idea how much the UK has to spend on? How many different things the government needs to spend money on? Infrastructure, the Armed Forces, public spending, all sorts. Full details can be found on the Budget Report on the UK Government's website. The EU is actually one of the biggest things that we spend money on, given how many factors need to be accounted for in the Budget Report every year. Therefore your last point isn't quite as airtight as you think.

By the way, what do you think about the single currency? I can find plenty of arguments against that too.

Attractive as 'the truth' may be to you I'm afraid you appear miss informed. I'm sure your A level was well intended but I'm afraid you have either remembered the facts incorrectly or you were given false information

The first treaty in the European integration project was the 1952 Treaty of Rome which created the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC). This organisation removed the control of the coal and steel industries from its members and gave it over to a supra-national body. The idea was that Frnace and Germany would no longer need to fight each other for control as both would now have a say and neither would be entirely in control. Plus it would contribute to post war reconstruction and solodify Germany and Italy's new democratic identity. However, there was always the intention of of further integration; the treaty contained the now famous phrase 'An ever closer Union'. As you did A level politics (or economics) I'm sure you are familiar with both neo-liberal institutionalism and neo-functionalism both were designed to explain the process of state integration and both predicted further integration in the future. I won't patronise you by going into further detail here since I am sure you are aware of the major points of these theoretical perspectives.

As for your rebuttal to my three points:

1.The Eastern European states which received stabilisation funding from the EU are the states which are now EU members. Since you are half Serbian I'm sure you are aware that Serbia is not a member, nor are any of the other post-Yugoslav republics (except Slovenia). This is because in the early nineties when the EU was assessing the post-socialist states for funding and membership Serbia was involved in an extremely bloody and violent war with its neighbours and the Western European states did not want to be seen to be funding the conflict. Admittedly, the EU' peace-keeping was almost non-existent but the last twenty years have seen significant increases in military integration; largely as a response to the failures in the Balkans.

2.The EU already has a free trade agreement with the US and the NAFTA states. Joining NAFTA would give the UK access to markets it can already sell to an deprive it of European markets. Regarding the CAP, it has long been understood that when Britain is prepared to give up its rebate France will allow reform of the CAP. However, people believe that the rebate is necessary to 'get our money's worth' or what have you, not realising that it in fact increases the volume of payments to the EU.

3.For the benefits the UK gets from the EU 3% is not a lot. The power the UK gains in trade negotiations by itself would be enough to warrant the expenditure plus there are the legal, legislative, scientific, educational, economic, defence, foreign policy burdens which the UK does not have to pay for itself but which it can share with the other EU members.


Do you know who first suggested the idea of a 'United States of Europe'? Take a guess, I think you'll be surprised.

 

[Nmil-ek]

Bo-o-ring

This is why living in the US of A rocks!

Enjoy your dubious two party system.

Also: WHO'S VOTING ON THURSDAY?!

As opposd to our awsome dubious two party system?

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Oh the hate in this thread is ridiculous and rather amusing. Up until now I had no idea that the UK had economic superpower status.

Seriously people, take your heads out of your asses.

 

[DannyBoy451]

Bo-o-ring

This is why living in the US of A rocks!

Enjoy your dubious two party system.

Also: WHO'S VOTING ON THURSDAY?!

As opposd to our awsome dubious two party system?

The Liberal Democrats will have their day, mark my words.

 

[AdamAK]

And yes, I'd rather have my country sort out it's NHS rather than Lativa get new roads, as I choose to live in the UK, not Latvia or Romania, so why should I pay for a country which I am not living in? Imagine if we suddenly had to pay US taxes, just because.

You're the definition of selfishness. You should also realise that improving the situation in other countries will lead to benefits for ALL countries, including your beloved UK, as a result of increased trade.

 

[Nmil-ek]

We need the EU to survive whatever the future will hold, Britain is gradually declinng and turning our backs to our good allies wont help a thing. Its the same students whinging about there economic situation without a dose of how bad some people live, the same old imperialists and politicians wanting britain to stay seperate. Screw them time the country became a producing economic working class power again, rather than cater to these whinging fuckwits anymore.

 

[Aardvark Soup]

And yes, I'd rather have my country sort out it's NHS rather than Lativa get new roads, as I choose to live in the UK, not Latvia or Romania, so why should I pay for a country which I am not living in? Imagine if we suddenly had to pay US taxes, just because.

Go die in a fire. Now.
You're the definition of selfishness. You should also realise that improving the situation in other countries will lead to benefits for ALL countries, including your beloved UK, as a result of increased trade.

I agree. Also you probably didn't choose to live in the UK, you were born there.

Anyway, I'm certainly going to vote. My party of choice will be the social-democratic 'PvdA' because I agree with them on almost all subjects and think they are realistic and don't just sprout popular and simplistic opinions.

 

[goatzilla8463]

I hope the UK do choose to pull out of the EU. All they have done is hinder our greatness with their attempts to make us accept the metric system and the Euro.

 

[Skeleon]

Actually, I like the EU a whole lot. It's the future of our continent. Our chance to become a unified economic superpower.
I'm glad Germany is part of both the EU and the monetary union (the Euro worked out fine after some initial stumbling and is now more stable than the dollar by a long shot).
As for the UK: Seriously, I don't even care anymore. Stay, leave, whatever.

 

[DeadpanLunatic]

I have removed my words from this site.

 

[EMFCRACKSHOT]

Because they want to try and absorb the UK into part of a larger society, we should stay independent, we should keep our trading rights with them, but apart from that we should stay away from the E.U.

I completely agree with this. The EU constitution is just an attempt to steal our sovereignty and give more power the the brussles super state. Of course, we cant keep the trading rights without staying in the EU. Therefore, we need to make it controlled by the British. With us at the helm im sure we could acomplish great things.

On another note, Labour are going to get absolutely hammered on thursday. I urge you all to get out there and vote against this pathetic excuse for a government. We need to send them a message that we want a general election.

EDIT: Vote Conservative

 

[Private Custard]

And yes, I'd rather have my country sort out it's NHS rather than Lativa get new roads, as I choose to live in the UK, not Latvia or Romania, so why should I pay for a country which I am not living in? Imagine if we suddenly had to pay US taxes, just because.

Go die in a fire. Now.
You're the definition of selfishness. You should also realise that improving the situation in other countries will lead to benefits for ALL countries, including your beloved UK, as a result of increased trade.

that's a bit harsh. Actually, that's fucking out of order.

I'm not entirely anti-Europe, but I'm hugely opposed to them having any say on how we spend our money or apply our (their)laws. Trading between member states can be beneficial to all, but there's absolutely no reason for anyone else to be telling us how to run our own house.

The problem with Britain is that our own politicians don't give a fuck about us and end up bowing down and kissing the arse of whichever faceless Brussels beaurocrat demands it. Other countries in Europe, such as France, look after number one when it suits them. For example, France held on for years in refusing British beef after the BSE scare......in direct violation of what Brussels demanded. Plus, I remember seeing figures for fishing subsidies a few years back and being completely disgusted. Spain took almost ten times as much as the UK, and they still come into our waters and give our fishermen shit if they go anywhere near them!

Britian is starting to fall apart at the seams. Crime, immigration, healthcare, the justice system, corrupt politicians, education, transport, taxes............all fucked, we could do without the enormous cost and meddling from Brussels whilst we try to sort it out.

Basically, the envisioned Europe is very much like communism..........good in theory, wrecked by the yes men and haves.........suffered by the have-nots.

I'd carry on ranting, but it's pointless. If you're for Europe and the shitstorm it entails then fine, you're happy. I'm not, and we'll NEVER see eye-to eye.

Oh, one other thing, WHY BRUSSELS?? Seriously, I went to Brussels a while back expecting some fancy, cosmopolitan, modern city, something to match the dream of a giant European superstate. What I found was an overwhelmingly dull city with plenty of grime, seedy areas and an overwhelming smell of urine......all whilst being duller than a grey wall with grey trim.

 

[Doug]

Yeah I support the EU myself and find nearly no one else does.

Its not perfect but its necessary in my view for European countries to compete in a world that's going to be even more dominated by continental powers in the future.

Does anybody think that USA would be better off if it was just 50 independent countries with a trade agreement?

I'm sure the richer states do think they'd be better off without the poorest states, and the religious states better off without the liberal ones, etc.

Basically, I don't think the EU, which is from how I understand it is an attempt to unify the various nations of Europe into one big nation, is justifiable. The states of the USA where unified early on in their history, as I understand it, and have been united that way for most of their existance.

As a UK citizen, I hate the idea of foreigners telling me how to live my life, do my job, etc, because they aren't apart of my culture and society - especially the beautcrats, who are frankly traitors to European democracy as a whole (seriously, everyone HAS to agree with the treaty of Lisbon because they say so???). Add to that, states like France and Spain shaft everyone else by breaking EU regulations and don't get punished for it. So what's the point of obeying EU rules if they don't enforce them?

I'm happy with trade and pan-European military forces (NATO), but I don't see why they have a right to force their rules onto us. Even moreso, whilst our MP's have been lining their pockets with 'expenses', the MEP's have voted not to allow their expenses to be made public! Their is no pan-European freedom of information act, so why should we be part of a union that is almost certainly lining its own pockets with our money, and if not their pockets, the French farmers and Spanish government's pockets.

I don't mind foreigners in general, and I think we do need to move beyond the former history of near-constant warfare with each other, but I don't think forcing everyone in Europe to be apart of some single contient government is fair or reasonable.

 

[Doug]

And yes, I'd rather have my country sort out it's NHS rather than Lativa get new roads, as I choose to live in the UK, not Latvia or Romania, so why should I pay for a country which I am not living in? Imagine if we suddenly had to pay US taxes, just because.

Go die in a fire. Now.
You're the definition of selfishness. You should also realise that improving the situation in other countries will lead to benefits for ALL countries, including your beloved UK, as a result of increased trade.

that's a bit harsh. Actually, that's fucking out of order.

I'm not entirely anti-Europe, but I'm hugely opposed to them having any say on how we spend our money or apply our (their)laws. Trading between member states can be beneficial to all, but there's absolutely no reason for anyone else to be telling us how to run our own house.

The problem with Britain is that our own politicians don't give a fuck about us and end up bowing down and kissing the arse of whichever faceless Brussels beaurocrat demands it. Other countries in Europe, such as France, look after number one when it suits them. For example, France held on for years in refusing British beef after the BSE scare......in direct violation of what Brussels demanded. Plus, I remember seeing figures for fishing subsidies a few years back and being completely disgusted. Spain took almost ten times as much as the UK, and they still come into our waters and give our fishermen shit if they go anywhere near them!

Very true, sadly. Nevermind, we'll just have to set fire to parliament soon and try again.

Britian is starting to fall apart at the seams. Crime, immigration, healthcare, the justice system, corrupt politicians, education, transport, taxes............all fucked, we could do without the enormous cost and meddling from Brussels whilst we try to sort it out.

Well, I disagree about the immigration situation - without the immigrants, we'd have no one to actually be doctors or nurses as our own lot have basically decided on masse to ignore any real work in favour of 'being a star' as they all think they can be 'reality TV stars'.

Sadly, again, the rest is very true - we have so many people in prison, we need more prisons, and even so, most criminals get away with it, dispite the ridiculously huge number of CCTV camera's around.

Basically, the envisioned Europe is very much like communism..........good in theory, wrecked by the yes men and haves.........suffered by the have-nots.

And the French and Spanards.

I'd carry on ranting, but it's pointless. If you're for Europe and the shitstorm it entails then fine, you're happy. I'm not, and we'll NEVER see eye-to eye.

Oh, one other thing, WHY BRUSSELS?? Seriously, I went to Brussels a while back expecting some fancy, cosmopolitan, modern city, something to match the dream of a giant European superstate. What I found was an overwhelmingly dull city with plenty of grime, seedy areas and an overwhelming smell of urine......all whilst being duller than a grey wall with grey trim.

I assume brussels was picked as a Europe wide way of trying to say 'sorry we've been fighting our wars in your land for centuries', lol.

 

[AdamAK]

So, in other words, you're expecting to benefit from the EU, but you're not willing to give something in return? The purpose of the EU is to create a 'common house' and to get rid of the 'our house' mentality.

Which alternative would you propose as the EU center?

 

[Private Custard]

By 'immigration', I meant illegal immigrants and our leaky borders allowing in almost anyone with a boat/raft/floating bathtub, who then go on to jump to the top of all lists, claim all benefits and then disappear when people start looking for them (or get shot in the head seven times in a misguided and unprovoked attack by the Met on the Underground)

Skilled immigrants are good for everyone........we need a system like Australia or New Zealand.

 

[Private Custard]

Which alternative would you propose as the EU center?

Somewhere that isn't a complete toilet would be a good start!

A vote would solve it. Although democracy in Europe is dead!

 

[Doug]

So, in other words, you're expecting to benefit from the EU, but you're not willing to give something in return? The purpose of the EU is to create a 'common house' and to get rid of the 'our house' mentality.

Which alternative would you propose as the EU center?

No, we want it to be fair. As in, if the French and Spanards get to break the rules and take all the cash, what's the point of joining the EU?

And maybe Luxemborg, not sure.

 

[Doug]

By 'immigration', I meant illegal immigrants and our leaky borders allowing in almost anyone with a boat/raft/floating bathtub, who then go on to jump to the top of all lists, claim all benefits and then disappear when people start looking for them (or get shot in the head seven times in a misguided and unprovoked attack by the Met on the Underground)

Skilled immigrants are good for everyone........we need a system like Australia or New Zealand.

Ah, right. Although we need to sort out our own freeloader problem too then - all those chav scum who've never worked a day in their lives, claim all they can, bring up animals instead of kids, and spend all the money supposed to be for the kids on booze and drugs, and then vote Labour dispite the fact that they've done jack all for the country (the unemployed chavs, that is - I don't want to get in a political row over whether or not Labour are a good government).