The Evil Option

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Unsilenced

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(This might get a bit long-winded, so there will be a TL:DR at the bottom.)

Evil options are often weak points in open-ended games. It can be hard to find a reason to want to be evil, especially when doing so cuts you off from other parts of the game. If an evil option destroys a town or permanently turns a faction hostile, the game world contracts and becomes more restricted as opposed to opening up to new possibilities. If you're being evil for the lulz, you might end up just not being able to do much as the world shuts down on you.

Fallout 3 was the first really open-ended game I ever played. I had played one or two sandbox games, but none that let you, say, shoot someone in the face after talking to them just because they wore a bad suit. It was a smash hit, an instant favorite that completely revolutionized my taste in games, but what did I do with my new-found power? I was a hero. I helped people in need. I destroyed Paradise Falls and helped freed slaves. I fought the Enclave and brought fresh water to the wasteland. It was all very fun.

But then I went back after beating the game and decided I would take a different route. I decided to be evil. I made a character that looked like the Joker and decided I would try to raise as much hell as possible. I was totally going to rip the wasteland a new one and watch everything burn to the ground.

It didn't work.

A few hours and a handful of quests later, I had moderately good karma and was on my way to Arafu, where I probably would have resolved the situation peacefully.

What happened?

Well, every time I was faced with an evil option, I had to think about what I knew about the game. I had played it through before, and knew where most things went. The real, obvious evil options such as Nuking megaton or killing someone over a debt collection were almost always dead ends.

If I save Megaton, then I'm a hero and my reputation grows. People love me and my story is carried throughout the waste; a prequel to my great deeds yet to come. I make friends and allies in the city, and can start interactions there that last for the entire game.

If I destroy Megaton, there's no more Megaton. Tenpenny kind of likes me or something but whatever. I lose a valuable trading spot and numerous interesting characters. I am cut off because I destroyed part of the game, and I can never come back.

Even playing as an evil, sadistic freak, I don't want to completely destroy the game world because I live there.


As a counter-point to Fallout 3, I am going to use Skyrim; the first open ended game where I was an evil bastard on my first playthrough. I did not start up Skyrim intending to be evil. I don't usually intend to do anything with first characters. I just do whatever occurs to me at the time. In Skyrim, it was becoming an assassin and a thief.

To be fair, I started the game as a khajiit, so "noble axe warrior" was probably never in the cards, but I could have been a fire mage.

Still, I played through a good portion of the game being little Mrs. Helpful, running errands for the locals and slaying dragons. I stayed that way until a certain little boy asked for a very particular favor, and I obliged. From that moment on, my character was ruthless. She killed for profit without a second thought. She was completely mercenary, willing to do anything for anyone with the gold.

So why was she so different from my characters in other games? What had changed? Why was I more willing to kill and destroy than I had been in other games?

It took me a while, but I finally figured it out: I wasn't. I had always played mercenary characters. From Fallout to Mass Effect to Bioshock to Red Dead Redemption, I hadn't done what was right: I had done done what was interesting. By killing or pissing off characters, I would have closed off opportunities. Pressing the "renegade" button to take a shit on someone's desk may have been funnier at the moment, but would probably mean less quests for them later. Being good had an objective, I was building something from it. By being consistently good, I would achieve the best possible end result. Evil on the other hand was just destructive. There was nothing that I could achieve only through evil in the way I could achieve through good.

Skyrim changed that for me. With the Dark Brotherhood, you are building something out of evil actions. There is a goal, and you get there by being evil. While killing a girl for debt money in Fallout might net me some low-level loot in exchange for probably having to fight my way out of town, killing for money in Skyrim got me new equipment and interesting interactions with likable characters.

Sure I was still killing off a massive number of NPCs, but now I had a reason to. It was going somewhere. I might have been sealing off some quest lines by killing important people, but at the very least I knew I would always have new ones from the Dark Brotherhood. My story was expanding with my foul deeds, not contracting.


TL:DR/Summary: In order for there to be a proper karma/morality system in a video game, there needs to be a reason for a player to want to do evil beyond just loot and the spoils of war, because there are plenty of bad people they can kill for that. It's not enough that games just let players burn the world down; there should be a reason to do it, and it should be interesting to watch.

 

rhyno435

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That's a very good point. I always play my first playthroughs as a good guy (mostly because I'm a pansy and can't bring myself to be evil even in a game). Then I do an evil playthrough just for the trophies or to see what happens, but it never leads to the same kind of expanded story as the good playthrough.
 

drudail

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I agree, I generally go for the good option, not because I'm squeemish about doing evil, I could care less about that. I do it because I can see that this random person may eventually have some useful function and I don't want to prevent future quests. Also, in both the Fallout and Elder Scrolls series, doing that evil thing has far reaching consequences. Clearly destroying Megaton closes off a ton of things, but even killing a random person resulted in pissing off the locals, which still prevented further quests.

I will say that I have yet to play Skyrim, so I have to fall back to my experiences in Morrowind and Oblivion, but I do like the fact that the Thieves Guild and Assassins guilds have extensive quest lines. The problem is that they can still often result in closing off other quests and there just aren't enough of those dark-sider quests to make it worthwhile to me. Generally when I joined those guilds I would create an alternate save so I could continue with the proper sequence. Perhaps that is one of the great things about the GTA series. You can be good or evil, both have benefits but neither have horrible consequences. It allows you (even encourages you) to be as evil as you want and it's still within context of the character and doesn't limit gameplay.

Perhaps the biggest problem with creating games which reward the player regardless of which direction they choose is that games which promote an evil side get a horrible public image, as seen in GTA. The fact that those options exist doesn't seem to be a problem for the general public, as long as there are consequences for the actions. Basically, a bit of morality can go a long way. Should we care what the general public thinks of games and gamers? That is a discussion for a different post, but I think that it is important for the industry for more broad acceptance of our hobby, regardless of whether or not they partake. Either way, freedom does lead to consequences, in games and in life. A lack of consequences in games can lead to real consequences for the industry as a whole.
 

him over there

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Revenge is the best motivation I can think of for revenge. A terrible act that only serves to aggravate more evil yet is perfectly justified and enjoyable to the person seeking vengeance. Aside from that I think that evil for the sake of evil can be a thing in videogames. Mostly from a rebellious perspective. the thing is with video games a legitimate motivation isn't always needed because the players enjoyment can be just as much a motivator as any story. people can be evil just because "lol I'm evil and that isn't typical die filthy peasants".
 

Jedoro

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The Dark Brotherhood was always a good way to be evil in a game. Most of the time when I play games, I've got to be the good guy. I usually can't be evil even if it means achievements. Every time I play through Fallout: New Vegas, Caesar gets several bullets to the brainpan.

But the Brotherhood always changed it. I never had a problem killing someone for money because a guy told me some woman's ghost said someone else wants the guy/gal dead, but I couldn't figure out why. Maybe it's because I was part of a, well, brotherhood of assassins who care about each other and genuinely regard themselves as family. Dread Father, Night Mother, door brother- it's a family of deviants and outcasts, and I always loved it.

If that mindset were to carry over to the real world, I shudder to think about the implications and my resulting behavior. I sincerely hope I'd never take such an opportunity if it were extended in reality, but it's always been genuinely fun to experience in a game.
 

w9496

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I know what you mean. I'm missing like 200 gamerscore from Fallout New Vegas because I'm not going to do the Legion quests. Ever.

The only reason to be evil in that game is to be an asshole, and I'd like to think that I'm not an asshole.
 

The_Lost_King

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Well I always have fun being evil. killing some shmook cause he look at me wrong sure. I am not really a COMPLETE ALL THE QUESTS! guy so it really doesn't matter if I do kill someone(plus bethesda games usually don't let you kill of major character(even if they are generals that have no story importance what so fucking ever)). Plus unless it is something like poisoning the water on Manaan or blowing up megaton I usually don't lose quests(or atleast I don't lose interesting quests).
 

Smeatza

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Bethesda games, while being RPGs, are crap for role playing.

Like in Skyrim, if you want to interact with the thieves guild, your only option is essentially an evil one.
Or in Fallout 3, where you cannot kill Liam Neeson.
 

Unsilenced

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Since a few people have brought it up: The Legion is a pretty good example of evil choices done wrong (though there are some good ones in FNV). If you chose to work for the Legion, you tend to find yourself cut off because most of the game takes place in NCR territory. The legion also happens to be stupid and hypocritical, but that's a different complaint.


him over there said:
Revenge is the best motivation I can think of for revenge. A terrible act that only serves to aggravate more evil yet is perfectly justified and enjoyable to the person seeking vengeance. Aside from that I think that evil for the sake of evil can be a thing in videogames. Mostly from a rebellious perspective. the thing is with video games a legitimate motivation isn't always needed because the players enjoyment can be just as much a motivator as any story. people can be evil just because "lol I'm evil and that isn't typical die filthy peasants".
The thing is though, if you kill peasants you might interfere with the player's own primary motivation, which is entertainment. Reckless killing ends in a dead game world, which isn't very fun to play around in.

Smeatza said:
Bethesda games, while being RPGs, are crap for role playing.

Like in Skyrim, if you want to interact with the thieves guild, your only option is essentially an evil one.
Or in Fallout 3, where you cannot kill Liam Neeson.
Well you can join them, or you can kill them, but you can't make them Robin Hood's band of merry men...
 

him over there

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Unsilenced said:
Since a few people have brought it up: The Legion is a pretty good example of evil choices done wrong (though there are some good ones in FNV). If you chose to work for the Legion, you tend to find yourself cut off because most of the game takes place in NCR territory. The legion also happens to be stupid and hypocritical, but that's a different complaint.


him over there said:
Revenge is the best motivation I can think of for revenge. A terrible act that only serves to aggravate more evil yet is perfectly justified and enjoyable to the person seeking vengeance. Aside from that I think that evil for the sake of evil can be a thing in videogames. Mostly from a rebellious perspective. the thing is with video games a legitimate motivation isn't always needed because the players enjoyment can be just as much a motivator as any story. people can be evil just because "lol I'm evil and that isn't typical die filthy peasants".
The thing is though, if you kill peasants you might interfere with the player's own primary motivation, which is entertainment. Reckless killing ends in a dead game world, which isn't very fun to play around in.
That happens mostly when the "evil" is fucking around with the game world and npcs outside of story/karma evil specific moments. Which makes it a lot easier to fuck things up. i think all that needs to be done is make it so that the absence of evil isn't good. Like in Fallout 3 not destrolishing megaton makes you a hero, instead things should remain neutral because you simply chose to not murder everyone, you didn't really save anyone.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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I agree...and often it doesnt make things enjoyable ot interesting

why the hell would I want to play the game as a petty jerk/sociopath?
Unsilenced said:
Since a few people have brought it up: The Legion is a pretty good example of evil choices done wrong (though there are some good ones in FNV). If you chose to work for the Legion, you tend to find yourself cut off because most of the game takes place in NCR territory. The legion also happens to be stupid and hypocritical, but that's a different complaint.
while the legion are simply put "pure evil", I havnt played them..but I supose if you want to play as somone with that kind of twisted outlook

I think going a "good" option in Fallout NV is alot more interesting in terms of morality

Mr House wantes me to kill the brotherhood, I don;t think thats nessicary....so I'm left with the option of killing him...which made me feel like a bastard...then what to do with the NCR? theyre intentions are good but they are flawed...

Fallout NV had some of the best moral choices because it made you [i/]think[/i]
 

dessertmonkeyjk

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I'm still waiting for a game to give me a quest that I have to appeal to the evil guy by doing evil things first. Then I'll learn all his secrets about his little bad guy club and plan a raid to tear it from the inside out.

You know, pretending to be evil in order to do good in the long term. That can be fun.
 

TheCommanders

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Yeah, this particularly annoyed me in Mass Effect. I thought the schtick was supposed to be:

Paragon- Idealist, kind, always does what's right
Renegade- Ruthless, does what needs to be done, jackass (but usually with reason)

However it seemed like almost every paragon/renegade decision was more just: choose paragon and be successful, or be renegade and ultimately have it bite you in the ass.

It would have been much more interesting if occasionally the forgiving and idealistic Paragon Shepard occasionally had to deal the consequences of their actions, like the crimes committed by the criminal they let live, or the loss of a position that they were unwilling to sacrifice men to hold. However for the most part it was Paragon: Better, Renegade: Worse, which was annoying because that's not how the real world works.
 

DustyDrB

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I will give Knights of the Old Republic credit for this. It's more cartoonishly evil than anything, but Korriban is really fun as a Dark Sider. You can be a totally dominant and confrontational asshole or a manipulative puppet-master. The latter path is my favorite.

w9496 said:
I know what you mean. I'm missing like 200 gamerscore from Fallout New Vegas because I'm not going to do the Legion quests. Ever.

The only reason to be evil in that game is to be an asshole, and I'd like to think that I'm not an asshole.
It's actually a very interesting quest line, though. Give it a try. When I did it, I sort of roleplayed it like my character sided with the Legion more out of fear than anything.
 

Clearing the Eye

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I've found being evil is always the "best" option. For example, pretend to be nice to a character until you've gotten all you need from them story-wise (they've introduced you to people, given you what you need, told others you're a good person, etc.) then kill them and loot what they were carrying. Kill them too soon and miss out on possible story and hidden features they will show you. Try too late and you might miss your opportunity.

Same reason I wait until I'm completely done in an area to kill all the people there--don't want to miss anything.

I'm pretty pragmatic in my roleplaying ;D
 

Clearing the Eye

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dessertmonkeyjk said:
I'm still waiting for a game to give me a quest that I have to appeal to the evil guy by doing evil things first. Then I'll learn all his secrets about his little bad guy club and plan a raid to tear it from the inside out.

You know, pretending to be evil in order to do good in the long term. That can be fun.
There's lots of that in Neverwinter Nights. One of the first quests you can get from the town in the "starting area" is form a very evil cult. If you have been a good person up until then, they ask why you want to help them and you can attempt to lie and tell them you were working with the good guys to learn their secrets and gain power in their ranks. From there you can worm your way into the cult and then gut it from the inside or actually do what you had said and continue to pretend to be good to play the nice guys for all their worth.
 

Unsilenced

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TheCommanders said:
Yeah, this particularly annoyed me in Mass Effect. I thought the schtick was supposed to be:

Paragon- Idealist, kind, always does what's right
Renegade- Ruthless, does what needs to be done, jackass (but usually with reason)

However it seemed like almost every paragon/renegade decision was more just: choose paragon and be successful, or be renegade and ultimately have it bite you in the ass.

It would have been much more interesting if occasionally the forgiving and idealistic Paragon Shepard occasionally had to deal the consequences of their actions, like the crimes committed by the criminal they let live, or the loss of a position that they were unwilling to sacrifice men to hold. However for the most part it was Paragon: Better, Renegade: Worse, which was annoying because that's not how the real world works.
There was one paragon option that let a terrorist get away, but I don't think he killed anyone after that (game one DLC.) There's also the thing where Zaeed may become permanently disloyal if you're paragon.

Fallout 3, to it's credit, had one mission where choosing the "best" option ended in a massacre. I was pissed at the time, but it was also pretty clever.
 

TehCookie

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What I dislike about the good vs evil is when one path is a lot shorter than the other. When I was choosing things in Skyrim it wasn't a question of good or evil, it was what would let me explore more content and get more items.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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Nov 28, 2010
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Unsilenced said:
(This might get a bit long-winded, so there will be a TL:DR at the bottom.)



Skyrim changed that for me. With the Dark Brotherhood, you are building something out of evil actions. There is a goal, and you get there by being evil. While killing a girl for debt money in Fallout might net me some low-level loot in exchange for probably having to fight my way out of town, killing for money in Skyrim got me new equipment and interesting interactions with likable characters.

Sure I was still killing off a massive number of NPCs, but now I had a reason to. It was going somewhere. I might have been sealing off some quest lines by killing important people, but at the very least I knew I would always have new ones from the Dark Brotherhood. My story was expanding with my foul deeds, not contracting.
If you liked that, dig up a copy of Oblivion. The Dark Brotherhood quest line is, in my opinion, superior to the one found in Skyrim and offers the same general appeal that you are talking about here in your post. Well, to be fair, it is just a bit more artistic and intricate. Where Skyrim has a small superiority on this particular score is the randomly generated NPCs to kill continuously after the main line completion - Oblivion's version lacks that follow up. Still, worth looking at if you enjoyed your playtime. Just throwing that out there.

RE: the fallout NV Legion quests... yeah they make zero sense to ever ally with if you happen to play a female character, which I always do. They kinda shot themselves in the foot with that if you ask me. I might have wanted to go tribal, unity, strength in military might, readiness to suppress the rights of the stupid chem addicted masses... but women as chattel, um, no. Big problem for me right there, and you get leered at when you have to visit their camp and hear the guys wanting to "have a turn on you" ... /shudder. Evil sure, but they didn't have to have been so obvious, it could have been a little more ambiguous and been better for it.

It's a little like the Tenpenny option in Fallout 3- so obviously sinister and shallow that you can't imagine what good it would do you to go along with people like that. Not in terms of world-benefit, per se, but in terms of personal benefit.