The "Family Values" trope.

[Parasondox]

So, why the fuck in the Western world if someone does something a bit taboo, a threesome, swinging, being gay, giving a homeless person money, it breaks "family values" and the sort.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that charity and charitable donations to homeless people breaks family values. Maybe I just don't roam in the right circles to hear such things but still. Never heard that particular point come up.

That bit was a joke. A silly thing I do.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

In fairness, we are part of an active plot to destroy said society. Whoops, did I say that out loud?

That's okay ... even if we get thwarted destroying society, we can at least be safe in our plans for destroying civilization itself by having loving LGBTQ/single parents simply raising children. I have to imagine that in Zontar's head transgender people must be like Rita Repulsa. Which is fun, because I'd totally rock that hat ... but somewhere along the lines loving transgender parent gets trumped by abusive alcoholic who broke their children's teeth ....

That's ... ehhhh. Really, really depressing.

It kind of reminds me of that pastor who was advocating punching children in the face if they came out as gay or acted effetely at all? It's like... You've just proven why you're the most terrible parent in the world, and the reason why we need Child Protection Services in the first place. What healthy parent punches kids? What neuroses do you have that would make you punch children? At the very least why aren't you in a psychiatric facility?

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

Dear Mister K, when people say they want two men (or two women) to be allowed to marry each other, it is not an assault on your freedom to marry a (consenting) woman.

...Aaand, I think that about covers it. If you can accept that sort of principle, then no, we won't have a problem.

Because politically, "family values" has never been about supporting traditional families, it's always been about denying non-traditional families. And tolerance (in this context) has never been about denying traditional families, it's always been about allowing non-traditional families.

Off-topic: Don't forget to quote, please.
On-Topic: I understand all of that. My, lets call it anger, wasn't aimed at people who say that it is not so. It was aimed at those edgelords in this thread that are all like "family is overrated" "I am so much better without my family" "I am superior to those who have a family".

I am a firm believer in equality. In actual equality, without quotas for minorities, without witch hunts, etc, etc. However people that I've already described in my OP (people that say that all men should die, for example) piss me right off. They don't want equality. I am not sorry for sounding sexist right now when I say that when I look at photos of people (mostly women) who scream about genocide based on a gender principle aren't really attractive. They want vengeance. And revenge almost never brings common good. Or they are just morons, who knows. In short, they bastardize my belief in equality.

historically feminist movements have been relatively peaceful. with the exception of soviet russia no country achieved voting rights for women with a revolution and the russian revolution wasn't primariy feministic. in fact after the innitial revolts in petrograd many of the revolutionary soldiers became guilty of rape and sexual assult. while groups like the sufferagettes have existed and possibly exist today they are usually a minority. before WW1 there was a massive peaceful demonstration for vthe vote for women. 500000 people showed up to participate. later the sufferagettes organized a violent mob to go throw rocks at parliment. it consisted of about 500. in general womens rights have been promoted in peaceful and civil ways.

 

[Mister K]

Snip

Yes, I vented yesterday and had slept already. Now I see what you actually meant. I apologise and agree. And I'll be honest: my initial reaction was mostly because of my tiredness and, well, my experience with reading your other posts, which sometimes striked me as a bit too liberal. Again, in this case at the very least, I stand corrected.

Thats fair. I post tired and cranky too sometimes, usually regretting some if not all of what I posted. If it means anything I wouldn't have joined the dogpile on you if not for you specifically citing my post.

Well, don't let it bother you too much. At the end of the day, I am just some random guy on the Internet. I am not, I'll be frank, someone you keep close to your heart (a friend, lover, spouse, coleague), right? So, even if you did say (type) something as a part of "dogpile", in the end, you would not only not wound someone you actually cherish, you wouldn't have wounded a person (me) in general, because both of us, me and you, are strangers to each other. We have crossed our ways here, maybe we'll do so again sometime in the future, but that is it. You can't possibly control what you say (type) at all times. I say it is better to let it go sometimes on forums and calm down, then keep it in and lash out on a friend, or a lover. Or a boss.

I am not saying that it should be a norm to be disrespectful to others just because we only see avatars and letters. What I AM saying, however, is that what you type on the Internet (on forums with no actual names, at least) doesn't have as much of an impact on others as in real life, so if a person really needs to lose cool, then it is better to do it there. I mean, I am not going to cry if "xxxL33tBettyGOJIRAxxx" will call me an asshole, but I will be sulky if I'll have a fight with a friend.

 

[Mister K]

SNIP

I don't want to open this can of worms again so I'll just say that while I agree with you, in our modern times this seem to be far from truth. Or the radical vocal minority creating an illusion that it is so. Hopefully, it is the latter.

 

[Something Amyss]

The Addams Family is an interesting subject to bring up here. The original premise of it was that they were not a typical family and didn't have the same values as everyone else, yet the all functioned perfectly well and loved each other.

I'd go more into it, but I'm never keen on forum discussions typed on my phone.

Also, yes, that's not quite the sauce I meant.

Yeah, that's not lost on me. However, the image of a creepy girl who beheads her dolls also isn't lost on me, so I went for that one.

*snap snap*

One of the things that always struck me was how romanticised the Addams' lifestyle was, just...flipped on its head.

On the other hand, one of my early musical influences was a man who once turned to dead pigeons on camera and dryly remarked, "you're not eating." So my metric is skewed.

Also, I'm afraid my sauce is weak. Weaksauce, I dub it.

Rita Repulsa

Ooh! Ooh! Dibs on the cone bra!

Though think about the comparison. It means that we're going to be fought by a group of ethnically diverse superheroes. How did we end up here?

but somewhere along the lines loving transgender parent gets trumped by abusive alcoholic who broke their children's teeth ....

That's ... ehhhh. Really, really depressing.

Yeeeeeeeeah. Not surprising, though. I remember these beats from the 90s with gay parents. Trans parents laregely weren't on the radar here, or I'm blocking it out. Probably that second one. Anyway, I remember a fuckton of people defending biological parents while opposing gay adoption, even if the biolkogical parents were awful, like...

It kind of reminds me of that pastor who was advocating punching children in the face if they came out as gay or acted effetely at all? It's like... You've just proven why you're the most terrible parent in the world, and the reason why we need Child Protection Services in the first place. What healthy parent punches kids? What neuroses do you have that would make you punch children? At the very least why aren't you in a psychiatric facility?

Sadly, I bet a lot of them, given the stories I know from LGBT youth in this country.

I suspect part of why he's not in a mental facility is this seems to be normalised in several countries.

And to bring this full circle, this is what I think of when I think "family values." Because I've known many a moral and upright person to kick out or just kick their queer child.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Spoiler

You were about to share some of your saucier erotica with me, I think.

I don't usually get into sauces. I'm more into creams and...that's not what you meant, is it?

Oh yeah, I remember what this thread is about...Family Values.

Spoiler

I adored Wednesday growing up. Which may actually make me a good case for why parents shouldn't split up. In fact, looking back on things, I'd like to reverse my position. Parents, don't let your kids grow up to be like me.

The Addams Family is an interesting subject to bring up here. The original premise of it was that they were not a typical family and didn't have the same values as everyone else, yet the all functioned perfectly well and loved each other.

I'd go more into it, but I'm never keen on forum discussions typed on my phone.

Also, yes, that's not quite the sauce I meant.

It's weird how very normal Gomez and Mortica Addams seem, indeed Gomez is one the most passionately in-love with his wife characters I've ever seen.

 

[mduncan50]

Snip

Yes, I vented yesterday and had slept already. Now I see what you actually meant. I apologise and agree. And I'll be honest: my initial reaction was mostly because of my tiredness and, well, my experience with reading your other posts, which sometimes striked me as a bit too liberal. Again, in this case at the very least, I stand corrected.

Thats fair. I post tired and cranky too sometimes, usually regretting some if not all of what I posted. If it means anything I wouldn't have joined the dogpile on you if not for you specifically citing my post.

Anyone got a peace pipe to pass around?

 

[Leg End]

TL;DR: Family Values, aren't. Your family is not my family and I have some fear for the children raised in a family that actually touts "Family Values" that doesn't solely consist of "being a damn parent".

- I am talkiing about fucking Ukraine with our cursed to their goddamn bones morons that think that only thing you need to do to make better country is to jump on the main street, wave flags and trash a few foreign banks, and after that back to throwing bottles on the street, spitting on the ground etc., etc., more important examples included. We have a good country and nice people, but many of them (especially the older generation) are so stuck in that socialistic point of view that they don't even understand how to function without big brother and, since they've lost this oh so precious potentially high pension, they tend to automatically think that return to big brother is inevitable and necceccary. Obviously, they spread this idea, which many here (especially young generation, born after Soviet regime) do not agree with. And they also think that lack of big brother means lack of rules and instead of trying to help our society to create proper mechanisms that must exist in normal country, shit on everything and live in their own shit and make others (concequentually) live in shit with them, because they are comfortable like this.
Don't tell me that Canada has the same problems, I won't believe it.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

I had to chime in here after one of your earlier statements. This is why a straight democracy has problems as the majority often buys into bullshit or has misconceptions that end up running the lives of others because the majority believing in something = everyone must live that way. Otherwise, I can reasonably get where you're coming from but it's a problem that forms in pretty much any society. I must note that I know this wasn't your point but I'm an idiot that has to chime in.

To better fit as an actual response, the majority often does want some form of big brother when they can't handle the responsibility of freedom without someone/something else having a hand in their lives. You end up wishing they could just go to their little socialist corner and leave everyone else alone to their own devices.

inb4 I get tagged for the dogpile next.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Ooh! Ooh! Dibs on the cone bra!

Though think about the comparison. It means that we're going to be fought by a group of ethnically diverse superheroes. How did we end up here?

To be fair, there were more diversity in Rita's forces. If anything, Power Rangers is a tale of the many varied peoples loyal to a justly angry person trying to claim a place of the paradise that is Earth, and humanity is greedily keeping it to themselves. Treated like literal garbage, locked away for 10,000 years in inhumane conditions, Rita is merely fighting a revolution against those responsible for such pain and hardship.

And the entire ensemble does hold a lot of appeal. I can't help but think the world would be more fun if people dressed like that normally. Of course by dint of that, you'd need something even funner to make an over-the-top villainous even ... funnerer?

Badass Repulsa-style magical wand is basically the answer to bringing back fashionable canes, I think.

Yeeeeeeeeah. Not surprising, though. I remember these beats from the 90s with gay parents. Trans parents laregely weren't on the radar here, or I'm blocking it out. Probably that second one. Anyway, I remember a fuckton of people defending biological parents while opposing gay adoption, even if the biolkogical parents were awful, like...

Yeah, but it still hurts to see such attitudes. Destroying civilization, indeed. Plenty of homeless kids ... in shelters, orphanages. All of them could use a good home. And given that so many of them are made homeless for being gay or trans, they could really use parents that understand that and be supportive.

Sadly, I bet a lot of them, given the stories I know from LGBT youth in this country.

I suspect part of why he's not in a mental facility is this seems to be normalised in several countries.

And to bring this full circle, this is what I think of when I think "family values." Because I've known many a moral and upright person to kick out or just kick their queer child.

Sorry state of affairs. Though I do maintain a sensible degree of hope. Frankly, I think a lot of it comes from heightened visibility. You get the growing visibility, it enters the common psyche, and the public vitriol grows, but so does the recognition of that hatred. It's no longer behind closed doors. The ugliness is there in full view. Even the average person are confronted with the knowledge that the garbage arguments of the past, like; "The break up of family values..." and recognise what they are for what they are.

Bigoted nonsense to protect a mythical quality that never existed.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

What exactly are American family values? I'm fairly certain my country have much different values, ones that actually seem to have something to do with family.

Nice house, white picket fence. Male Husband, Female wife, 2 kids.

Husband works all day and then comes home to drink, and doesn't get involved in raising children

Wife cooks, cleans, raises kids, and generally runs the house around the husband since she stays home all day

Son plays football and kisses all the girls, only maturing into an adult after marriage once he has a wife to take care of him

Daughter must mature into a grown woman after her first period, spends her youth learning how to be a good wife and how to find a good man to raise and take care of so they can have a nice house with a white picket fence with 2 kids

i fail to see why so many men supported this structure for so long and why there are some who still promote it. they actually did an experiment in a documentary where in a modern family was to live through various historical phases. when they came ot the 50s the man said he was outright bored since he could not participate in housework, help his children with homework or talk to any of the ohter family members for extended periods of time. 50s family values basically means a man lives with a family he barely actually knows as people, having to treat them like exhibits of his success

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

What exactly are American family values? I'm fairly certain my country have much different values, ones that actually seem to have something to do with family.

Nice house, white picket fence. Male Husband, Female wife, 2 kids.

Husband works all day and then comes home to drink, and doesn't get involved in raising children

Wife cooks, cleans, raises kids, and generally runs the house around the husband since she stays home all day

Son plays football and kisses all the girls, only maturing into an adult after marriage once he has a wife to take care of him

Daughter must mature into a grown woman after her first period, spends her youth learning how to be a good wife and how to find a good man to raise and take care of so they can have a nice house with a white picket fence with 2 kids

i fail to see why so many men supported this structure for so long and why there are some who still promote it. they actually did an experiment in a documentary where in a modern family was to live through various historical phases. when they came ot the 50s the man said he was outright bored since he could not participate in housework, help his children with homework or talk to any of the ohter family members for extended periods of time. 50s family values basically means a man lives with a family he barely actually knows as people, having to treat them like exhibits of his success

I suspect it's just a matter of shifted priorities. The kind of people who typically idealize the 50s family style either have an unusual obsession with a specific trait (For men it might be power, or a desire to have a family without the hassle of actually being part of it; For women it might be the desire to give up all control, etc), or, more likely, they simply would cheat if they got what they actually want. I think most people here remember those wonderful politicians who spout 'Family Values' during speeches, and then get caught sleeping with gay hookers.

 

[Mister K]

Snip

Yes, I vented yesterday and had slept already. Now I see what you actually meant. I apologise and agree. And I'll be honest: my initial reaction was mostly because of my tiredness and, well, my experience with reading your other posts, which sometimes striked me as a bit too liberal. Again, in this case at the very least, I stand corrected.

Thats fair. I post tired and cranky too sometimes, usually regretting some if not all of what I posted. If it means anything I wouldn't have joined the dogpile on you if not for you specifically citing my post.

Anyone got a peace pipe to pass around?

I had peace cookies somewhere.
Oh, here they are:

Spoiler

 

[mduncan50]

What exactly are American family values? I'm fairly certain my country have much different values, ones that actually seem to have something to do with family.

Nice house, white picket fence. Male Husband, Female wife, 2 kids.

Husband works all day and then comes home to drink, and doesn't get involved in raising children

Wife cooks, cleans, raises kids, and generally runs the house around the husband since she stays home all day

Son plays football and kisses all the girls, only maturing into an adult after marriage once he has a wife to take care of him

Daughter must mature into a grown woman after her first period, spends her youth learning how to be a good wife and how to find a good man to raise and take care of so they can have a nice house with a white picket fence with 2 kids

i fail to see why so many men supported this structure for so long and why there are some who still promote it. they actually did an experiment in a documentary where in a modern family was to live through various historical phases. when they came ot the 50s the man said he was outright bored since he could not participate in housework, help his children with homework or talk to any of the ohter family members for extended periods of time. 50s family values basically means a man lives with a family he barely actually knows as people, having to treat them like exhibits of his success

Hmm, I wonder what would have happened if they ran that same experiment, except not assuming the 50s family was white. I would imagine he would be less bored and more harassed, beaten, and destitute.

 

[mduncan50]

Snip

Yes, I vented yesterday and had slept already. Now I see what you actually meant. I apologise and agree. And I'll be honest: my initial reaction was mostly because of my tiredness and, well, my experience with reading your other posts, which sometimes striked me as a bit too liberal. Again, in this case at the very least, I stand corrected.

Thats fair. I post tired and cranky too sometimes, usually regretting some if not all of what I posted. If it means anything I wouldn't have joined the dogpile on you if not for you specifically citing my post.

Anyone got a peace pipe to pass around?

I had peace cookies somewhere.
Oh, here they are:

Spoiler

Not to start a new fight...but those look like dog biscuits.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

What exactly are American family values? I'm fairly certain my country have much different values, ones that actually seem to have something to do with family.

Nice house, white picket fence. Male Husband, Female wife, 2 kids.

Husband works all day and then comes home to drink, and doesn't get involved in raising children

Wife cooks, cleans, raises kids, and generally runs the house around the husband since she stays home all day

Son plays football and kisses all the girls, only maturing into an adult after marriage once he has a wife to take care of him

Daughter must mature into a grown woman after her first period, spends her youth learning how to be a good wife and how to find a good man to raise and take care of so they can have a nice house with a white picket fence with 2 kids

i fail to see why so many men supported this structure for so long and why there are some who still promote it. they actually did an experiment in a documentary where in a modern family was to live through various historical phases. when they came ot the 50s the man said he was outright bored since he could not participate in housework, help his children with homework or talk to any of the ohter family members for extended periods of time. 50s family values basically means a man lives with a family he barely actually knows as people, having to treat them like exhibits of his success

Hmm, I wonder what would have happened if they ran that same experiment, except not assuming the 50s family was white. I would imagine he would be less bored and more harassed, beaten, and destitute.

true but the experiment was carried out in norway which didn't have significant non-white minorities in it before the 60s. we were thankfully too poor and unimportant to take part in the atlantic slave trade. there were thralls during the viking age but they were mostly slavs or finns and the practice ended in the late middle ages. little significant migration into the country occured because it was poor, cold an sparsely populated and developed. a lot of jews fled here before ww2 but then the nazis invaded and the population was pretty anti-semittic to begin with so jewish property confiscated by the nazi government was never returned and a most of them left

 

[DementedSheep]

I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but here in NZ "family values" and having family in the name of your lobby or political group is code for a regressive anti gay Christian group so noone else with a lick of sense uses that term.

It might even be the same branch of Christianity doing this elsewhere.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I don't know how it is in the USA but here in NZ "family values" and having family in the name of your lobby or political group is code for regressive anti gay Christian group so noone else with a lick of sense uses that term.

It's pretty much exactly the same here in the US. I've never heard I used by anyone but them

 

[DefunctTheory]

I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but here in NZ "family values" and having family in the name of your lobby or political group is code for a regressive anti gay Christian group so noone else with a lick of sense uses that term.

It might even be the branch of Christianity doing this elsewhere.

It's pretty much the same in the USA, where we have...

American Family Association - A group that attacks homosexual equality policies and ideas, non-traditional families, transgenders, and views everything through a 'Christian' lense

Family Research Counsel - Has many colorful 'sources' on it's website, like 'The Top Ten Harms of Same-Sex Marriage' and 'The Top Ten Myths about Homosexuality.'

Family Research Institute - Appears to be defunct for two years, but a casual look at whats still on the website reveals that it has more articles on homosexuality then families, including an article about how protecting gays is protecting pedophiles.

Illinois Family Institute - Again, another family organization that seems more concerned with Christianity and homosexuals then anything else.

Conservatives oppose the inclusion of ?sexual orientation? in anti-discrimination laws for multiple reasons:

-The specious term ?sexual orientation? erroneously conflates homosexuality and heterosexuality, which are, in reality, ontologically distinct. It should be obvious that the term ?sexual orientation? is a political contrivance used to provide cover for the inclusion of homoeroticism as a protected category in law in that no one is ?discriminated against? because of their heterosexuality. In objective terms, all humans are heterosexual.

-Unlike heterosexuality which is constituted by objective conditions (i.e., anatomical structures and biological processes), homosexuality is constituted solely by subjective sexual feelings and volitional acts that are appropriate objects of moral assessment.

-Homosexuality is wholly distinct from other conditions that are included in anti-discrimination laws, like sex, race, age, and nation of origin.

-Homosexuality?constituted as it is by subjective erotic feelings and volitional sexual acts?is, however, analogous to other conditions similarly constituted, and therefore, its inclusion opens the door for claims that polyamory and paraphilias should be included in anti-discrimination law.

-Once conditions constituted by subjective, fluid, erotic feelings and volitional sexual acts are offered special protections, the religious liberty of people of faith will be compromised.

Only fools and liars deny that religious liberty is eroding through the sullied efforts of homosexuals and their ideological accomplices.

Traditional Values Coalition - Just...

Yeah.