The Final Choice In Mass Effect 2 Is Horseshit: A Diatribe

[Woodsey]

Actually, I'd say blowing up the Reaper has perfectly logical choices behind it.

I base this on what Legion and the Geth do; follow their own technological path. They were offered Reaper technology, and they rejected it. I can see plenty of reasons, none of which have to do with ethics, to do so. The main one being that it is Reaper technology. This has shown numerous times to not only backfire, but turn you into a mindless slave in the process. Raper technology is dangerous and uncontrollable. It could very easily be used against you by the creatures that made it. This is why I always blow up the Human Reaper. It's to unpredictable and could easily lead to your demise. A perfectly logical conclusion that has nothing to do with the fact that it was made from a human smoothie. I just wish they had made Shepard's dialogue different so it didn't sound like he was disposing of it just to be a morally good angel.

However, I do agree that every single character berating you for keeping it is stupid, especially since the game is designed so that numerous characters can support keeping it. It's a huge dick move on the part of the writers.

Firstly, I fought the ridiculous boss (who I will cover in another post because I can not comprehend why a supremely powerful, cold, uncaring machine race would want to make a human reaper to punch spaceships)

I'm one of the few insane people who thinks that was actually a good part of the story, for reasons contained within this huge post;

Spoiler: Long and not entirely relevant to this thread

Many people have wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using organics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and sustain organic food than allowing civilizations to constantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it because the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most advanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.

The Reapers were not just trying to build any ordinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target something other than human colonies. But they specifically wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.

But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse category of sentient lifeforms, with no one species appearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.

If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's because the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.

In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.

"Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength."

I could be wrong but I believe someone (Mordin or Legion, I think) in one of the conversations that "they have no culture." But maybe he was talking about collectors. Or maybe I have a disease that causes me to imagine facts that make me seem correct, I don't know.

I thought EDI put forward the idea that they created themselves to look like the species they were made from.

Or maybe because they're partly organic that's how it "grew" because of the human DNA. No one knows yet.

 

[GLo Jones]

As I said, Shepard has killed about 1.5 Reapers with relative ease and I have no doubt that if Cerberus tried to build a Reaper Shepard could destroy it, and even the threat of Shepard being able to take it down should keep them earnest.

Actually I'd say Shepard has only killed about 0.3 of a Reaper, before it was fully functional. The human-reaper was still in very early stages of development, and (while you could say Shepard was at the spearhead of the assault) Sovereign was killed by the entire collective forces of all alliance vessels around the Citadel, and it was still a close call.

So if one reaper could be that devastating to alliance forces, imagine and entire army of them.

 

[archvile93]

There is a very similar forum post on the ME website and might as well post the similar response here. It is true that if we "do" get the base to function for us, we could use the tech against the reapers. But to me there was TOO much of a risk to use it than there was to gain. Let me put in an example from District 9.
***************************************Spoiler**********************************************
In the movie, the main character tampered with an alien object and ended up transforming himself into the alien species.
****************************************Spoiler End*****************************************
What I am saying is this, if we "tampered" with Reaper tech, that is VERY well known to randomly produce Husks and brainwash mortals what do you think I would believe a fully functional Reaper tampered base would do to ANY alien species? I did not see it as "loosing myself", I saw it as "I have seen what this tech has done to MULTIPLE people. I am not going to give this tech to have an advanced/special ops organization get brainwashed by Reapers."

P.S. I have no idea how to hide spoilers, so if anyone could give me advice I would be happy.

For spoilers use (spoiler)(/spoiler) only instead of parenthesis use brackets.

Also, there is one flaw in your argument. Shepard has Legion on his side, and could possibly get the Geth to help him research it. Since Legion himself said the Geth would be willing to fight against the Reapers. And logically you would want any advantage on your enemy that you can get, and since robots tend to think logically (Legion and EDI have helped further this argument through many discussions with them) Shepard could potentially get the Geth to help research the base.

Plus you have EDI and VI's that could be put onto the base to speed up research, keeping organics away. And you can't brainwash robots.

That way organics don't get corrupted, and we get research.

There's a flaw in your argument. Cerberus is the only organization that can copy the IFF and reach the base to begin with. By the time the Alliance or council could also produce them (asumming you give the original to them) Cerberus would have the area completely secured and keep everyone else out.

 

[zHellas]

SPACEY-SPACE SNIP

No, the problem with giving it to the Illusive Man is that you're giving it to the ILLUSIVE MAN. He's a shady, super-secret, and creepy ************ that's basically pulled your leg like 3 times already(AKA using you as a distraction for danger without consulting you AKA playing with your lives).

While studying the Reaper thingy is quite smart, you're giving it to the Illusive Man. Giving it to the Council(while they might destroy it), is more smart as you know what they'd do. And since they only gave you 2 choices, between destroying it so that no one can use it or giving it to the extremely shady and possibly evil man; the best choice is destroying it(at least in my opinion).

I trust the council/alliance as much as I trust the elusive man. Just because Council "represents" all species does not mean they make great choices. Though to be honest I hate the alliance the most. The second Shepard becomes a spectre, they send him/her out to multiple locations to clean up their mess. Are you KIDDING ME!? I finally gain some ground for human kind and you make me your ****ing janitor!? Ungrateful alliance pricks.
At least with Cerberus, you already know they are fishy. While the Alliance uses pretty uniforms to fool you into believing they are good people. Yeah, I didn't like Admiral Hackett. Not because I believe he is a bad character, but because he used me as a janitor more often than Cerberus did. All under the flag of "for humanity".

So... What's your point?

 

[Paranoid 6679]

Ive played both Mass Effect games and really do think their great, all things considered, while the events leading up to the end 2 choices do make you feel limited in your actual level of control over the plot, youve got to remember that games are still limited, I for example would love a Zombie RTS game that would actually work or a Halo (4) that would make any sense without needing to call a francise a continuation or remake (quadrillogy).
but, in Mass Effect I had a full paragon character but decided to leave the base intact, now I did this for all the right reasons...like 'how the f*** will we defeat an advanced Machine race that could have harvested the galaxy so many times its second nature to them?' But because the organisation you work for are so bad they will give every species in the universe AID's, it comes across as being the wrong choice, and thats where it all becomes a bit limited.
I still think M.E. is a great game regardless of it limits.

 

[Rarhnor]

I think you haven't gone over the loading screens...

Teory:
ME3 is under development. It will take off from where the 2nd ended. This choice will probably have an effect on the next game, and based on the paragon and renegade decisions respectively, handing over the technology will surely be abused in ME3 , and therefore it is presented as a renegade action.

+ It amused me quite a bit that your thoughts was exactly like a supervillian. "This isn't wrong! It others just don't understand it...". Sort of like lawful evil, but only lawful to himself due to his own logic.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I'm one of the few insane people who thinks that was actually a good part of the story, for reasons contained within this huge post;

Spoiler: Long and not entirely relevant to this thread

Many people have wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using organics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and sustain organic food than allowing civilizations to constantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it because the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most advanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.

The Reapers were not just trying to build any ordinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target something other than human colonies. But they specifically wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.

But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse category of sentient lifeforms, with no one species appearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.

If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's because the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.

In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.

Spoiler: I'm pretty sure the reasonings behind the Reaper you find at the end are explained inside the game

During the final mission somebody tells you that they are making the Reaper out the genetic matter of the most promising species at the time they come back into the galaxy. I don't really understand how blended humans can be turned into a giant spaceship, but I'm willing to chalk that up to Sci-fi jargon. So anywho I don't really think that the human Reaper was created for cultural reasons, I mean the Reapers don't really have much of a culture, but it rather just being what the Reapers do. We haven't seen to many Reapers yet so far but I imagine that many of them look different because they were created from different species. Sovereign looks like a squid-thing probably because he was built from squid things. I imagine that many of the other Reapers also look like different species from millenia past, although I'm guessing a lot of the original Reapers (the ones that kicked off this whole fiasco) look pretty much the same.

So in conclusion, the reapers aren't really creating a Human Reaper because their really impressed with Humanity. They're just doing what they always do: Wait a really long time for intelligent species to arise, come in and find the best species, make Reapers out of them so that any lost will be replaced, kill everything else, go back out into "Dark Space", repeat cycle. It isn't really elegant or anything but they are machines. Freaky organicly made machines, but machines none the less.

Of coarse part of this is just speculation on a game whose ending I haven't seen in a while. My memory might not be entirely correct.

 

[direkiller]

Can you name a science fiction movie where tinkering around in an ancient alien vessel has led to a -good- thing?

Seriously, if a dead reaper can make a science team go crazy and kill each other, why wouldn't it not happen again? If anything, I thought the silliest decision was -not- blowing it up.

Roboteck

Edit: Homeworld 1 you got a hyperspace core , homeworld 2 you get nice things from messing around in the forge-ship gets you sajjuk's little brother the dreadnot

(HW cataclysm it kinda went south on them)

 

[Irridium]

There is a very similar forum post on the ME website and might as well post the similar response here. It is true that if we "do" get the base to function for us, we could use the tech against the reapers. But to me there was TOO much of a risk to use it than there was to gain. Let me put in an example from District 9.
***************************************Spoiler**********************************************
In the movie, the main character tampered with an alien object and ended up transforming himself into the alien species.
****************************************Spoiler End*****************************************
What I am saying is this, if we "tampered" with Reaper tech, that is VERY well known to randomly produce Husks and brainwash mortals what do you think I would believe a fully functional Reaper tampered base would do to ANY alien species? I did not see it as "loosing myself", I saw it as "I have seen what this tech has done to MULTIPLE people. I am not going to give this tech to have an advanced/special ops organization get brainwashed by Reapers."

P.S. I have no idea how to hide spoilers, so if anyone could give me advice I would be happy.

For spoilers use (spoiler)(/spoiler) only instead of parenthesis use brackets.

Also, there is one flaw in your argument. Shepard has Legion on his side, and could possibly get the Geth to help him research it. Since Legion himself said the Geth would be willing to fight against the Reapers. And logically you would want any advantage on your enemy that you can get, and since robots tend to think logically (Legion and EDI have helped further this argument through many discussions with them) Shepard could potentially get the Geth to help research the base.

Plus you have EDI and VI's that could be put onto the base to speed up research, keeping organics away. And you can't brainwash robots.

That way organics don't get corrupted, and we get research.

There's a flaw in your argument. Cerberus is the only organization that can copy the IFF and reach the base to begin with. By the time the Alliance or council could also produce them (asumming you give the original to them) Cerberus would have the area completely secured and keep everyone else out.

I don't remember anything about them copying the IFF. I know they found it, but after that all the origional people on the Reaper corpse was, well turned into Husks.

The only one that was able to make any sense of the thing was EDI.

 

[Rarhnor]

Can you name a science fiction movie where tinkering around in an ancient alien vessel has led to a -good- thing?

Seriously, if a dead reaper can make a science team go crazy and kill each other, why wouldn't it not happen again? If anything, I thought the silliest decision was -not- blowing it up.

Roboteck

Tinkering with the machine, threw humanity into war

 

[WINDOWCLEAN2]

I'm still incredibly surprised no-one has noticed this fact.

Look at the Illusive Man's eyes. He has FUCKING ROBOT EYES!

Hence my theory te Illusive Man is actually a Reaper and there will be some huge twist in ME3.

OT: I took it for playing the role of a 'Hero'. Plus i had a Female Shepard so the dialogue was Much better.

 

[Fenolio]

My 2 cents

Collector base is reaper tech.
So are the mass relays.
In ME1 we learn that the reaper's built the relays so that civilisation would follow along with that technology, meaning that they would encounter little to no surprise's (dont forget they are like the geth only on a much much much larger scale, for perspective, legion has 1,183 individual programs working in tandem. The average reaper has billions).
If we studied the collector base we wouldnt likely come up with anything that would work against the reapers, the galaxy can then devote its time to researching NEW tech, which WOULD surprise the reapers if they expect us to keep the collector base.

 

[direkiller]

Can you name a science fiction movie where tinkering around in an ancient alien vessel has led to a -good- thing?

Seriously, if a dead reaper can make a science team go crazy and kill each other, why wouldn't it not happen again? If anything, I thought the silliest decision was -not- blowing it up.

Roboteck

Tinkering with the machine, threw humanity into war

it stoped them from having world wars first, United them and advanced there tec

then it tossed them into a war

Edit: also the war would have happened anyway without the tec they got it would have been just an invasion

 

[Internet Kraken]

My 2 cents

Collector base is reaper tech.
So are the mass relays.
In ME1 we learn that the reaper's built the relays so that civilisation would follow along with that technology, meaning that they would encounter little to no surprise's (dont forget they are like the geth only on a much much much larger scale, for perspective, legion has 1,183 individual programs working in tandem. The average reaper has billions).
If we studied the collector base we wouldnt likely come up with anything that would work against the reapers, the galaxy can then devote its time to researching NEW tech, which WOULD surprise the reapers if they expect us to keep the collector base.

I find the comparison between Geth and Reapers to be inaccurate. Reaper appear to be thousands of minds forming into one, sapient organism. Geth are thousands of minds, but each mind is still a single organism with opinion and thoughts exclusive to itself. They just share these emotions and thoughts among other Geth automatically.

I'm still incredibly surprised no-one has noticed this fact.

Look at the Illusive Man's eyes. He has FUCKING ROBOT EYES!

Hence my theory te Illusive Man is actually a Reaper and there will be some huge twist in ME3.

OT: I took it for playing the role of a 'Hero'. Plus i had a Female Shepard so the dialogue was Much better.

Shepard has those same eyes, just red. Does that mean he is a Reaper as well?

I don't get why so many people pick up on this small detail while completley bypassing others. It makes no sense for the Illusive Man to be a Reaper. Nothing he does in the game is to their benefit, while he does hundreds of things to their detriment. I swear nobody would come to this conclusion if it weren't for those eyes. If those eyes are a strong indication that he could be a Reaper, don't you think he would hide them from the people in the game so they wouldn't come to the same conclusion?

 

[TOGSolid]

snip

This is why I hate the entire concept of forced morality in games of all types. The "morality" of the choices you make are dictated by what the game tells you, not your real motivations. A great example would be the ending of Mass Effect 1. You can either save the council and be "the hero" or let them die for whatever reason and be all stone cold'n'what not. I chose to save the council, not because I thought they were important, but soley just so I could keep on shit talking them. My motivations were the complete opposite of heroic or righteous. I was, in fact, a complete and total rotten bastard about it.\
And yet I get +20 paragon points.

Wut?

This is one of the big problems with western RPGs (no, I'm not a jRPG fan boy, I think those are equally retarded). You don't have any real "choice." It's all prescripted and leaves you, the player, essentially playing not a game, but instead the next generation of a choose your own adventure book.

 

[Altorin]

Well first of all, you misunderstood the Human Reaper, but that's ok, it's not explained very well at all in the game.. ALL of the reapers (or at least MOST of them, because I don't care to wrap my mind around the first reaper that started this whole thing) were created in the exact same way as the "Human Reaper".

And in its adult form, it would look like the tentacled dreadnought ship that we've seen in Sovereign and Harbinger. Each Reaper, has within its structure somewhere, a (usually) humanoid shaped form, which is what it grew out from.. There are pictures online that were in the Art of Mass Effect 2 companion to the Collector's Edition that showcase roughly how it works. But you're right, not explained well in the game at all.

I blew up the collector ship just because I had had just about enough of the collectors and wanted to see their technology burned to the ground.

 

[Broken Orange]

To get my point across, I will have a good friend of mine tell you why they should have blown it up. Hicks from Aliens, what do you think?

"Nuke it from orbit, it's only way to be sure."

err, yeah. I think what he meant was that the only way to be sure that the Reaper tech won't back fire, just destroy it. Alright Hicks, you can leave now to get killed in the opening credits of Alien 3.

 

[Kuhkren]

To me the game wasn't really that black and white. For renegade it was efficiency and the ends justify the means, while for paragon it was more compassionate, cooperative, and a little naive (not a bad thing, just more opportunity for exploitation of decisions and morals). I believe the reasons why part of the gameplay is locked off if you are not more paragon or more renegade is to reflect a more stable character standpoint. A character in the middle may not command as much respect from the crew to cease fighting. Rather than a perfectly representative moral system it is more or less a loose script of standpoints/personalities to choose from.

 

[Nfritzappa]

Jeez. You guys don't know how those choices are gonna be reflected until the 3rd game. So why don't we decide how the final choice is after we play #3?

...
Yeah I didn't think so. People love complaining too much.

 

[Beacon]

I'm one of the few insane people who thinks that was actually a good part of the story, for reasons contained within this huge post;

Spoiler: Long and not entirely relevant to this thread

Many people have wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using organics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and sustain organic food than allowing civilizations to constantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it because the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most advanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.

The Reapers were not just trying to build any ordinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target something other than human colonies. But they specifically wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.

But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse category of sentient lifeforms, with no one species appearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.

If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's because the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.

In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.

That's consistent when you take a few pieces of evidence...

Spoiler: Response, but a massive spoiler as well.

Legion asserts that the Reaper known as Sovereign was a composite entity of thousands of minds working as a collective. It's possible that a Reaper is a kind of hive mind constructed of the minds of an entire civilisation. Add in to this that the concept art for the human Reaper showed it being a part of a regular Reaper:

and it's likely that the human reaper is actually the norm for Reapers. Perhaps Sovereign was 'anonymised' so that no one would realise what it was or maybe Sovereign's parent species just doesn't look like anything we'd recognise.

What the hell is Sovereign? Im glad someone finally addressed the question. If all reapers are based on an organism that sovereign squid thing was weird as. I think that they take the most promising race and collect it into a hivemind by which they become a higher form of life or "multiple platforms" as legion puts it. Protheans was no contest but the humans and the other species squabbled and faught for dominance, a councel being the least usefull thing to decide which species is strongest. Would soveriegn not have used the turians? He did select one as his representative and at the end his avatar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaRdcVYTjRw

That's a 5 minute video of Harbinger's quotes in Mass Effect 2...Randomly through it, Harbinger mentions the different species in Shepard's squad...His exact words are "Turians considered...too primitive."


But as far as the final choice goes...I always hand it over to Cerberus. Harbinger, Sovereign, and the rest of the Reapers weren't people in the giant purple squid ships...they WERE the giant purple squid ships. Cerberus couldn't benefit from making it's own Reaper, the best they could do is some fancy new weapons, armor, or ships.

This is the best way I can sum it up...Cerberus and Humanity's destiny are intertwined. Everything that is good for one is going to be good for the other...

But still...Fuck the Illusive Man...