The final proof...

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Piecewise

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That this whole "Feminist" frenzy, this whole trend of gaming journalists leaping on the kneejerk band wagon for publicity sake, has reach it's apex of idiocy.

So Mr.Schreier, of the fine rag that is Kotaku, comes out and decides that he's gonna complain about how the character in some game is scantily clad. Already, we're in "was this really worth a goddamn article?" territory. But then he goes further and says this:



For reference, this is the character he's talking about:



Now read what he says in there carefully, particularly around the middle there.

"Large breasts...are part of a lolicon fantasy"

Yeah. Outrageously large breasts are clearly what you think of when you think "lolicon" right?

Beyond the fact that he's quite clearly throwing out words that he has no goddang idea what mean, lets look a little bit further:

"Maybe she's a strong, mufti-faceted character with interesting thoughts and ambitions. None of that really matters because [of how she's presented]"

So what he's saying here is that a character cannot be both sexual and well rounded; that if a female character is attractive and dresses skimpy, that SHE AUTOMATICALLY DOES NOT MATTER. Don't we have these things called "Slut walks" that are all about how people should be free to dress however they want and not automatically be considered lesser for it? Isn't this much more chauvinist?

Lets keep reading, shall we?

Oh, in the part in parenthesis he talks about how, apparently, when women are portrayed in skin tight clothing, kicking ass and taking names, it's sexual objectification. But when men are shown in skin tight clothing, kicking ass and taking names, it's a power fantasy. I guess that explains why you never see women cosplaying as one of many scantily clad ass kickers from fantasy. OHWAIT! Here's 100+ images of exactly that!
http://wildammo.com/2012/05/28/comic-con-101-sexiest-female-cosplay/

Here's the thing, this is a double standard and not in the way you're probably thinking. It's a double standard in that it seemingly denies the ability for women to be attracted to fictional depictions of male and female characters. It's saying "Oh well, kitty pride's tight ass is just for guys to spank it over, but batman's rippling muscles, chiseled jaw and brooding attitude? Naw, thats just a male power fantasy. No women out there are into that! Women can't be sexual, they can only be objectified and have sex forced upon them!"

Male heroes are just as sexualized as their female counterparts. They might show less skin, but there's a reason they're all wearing skin tight clothing. And really, what the hell is wrong with the sexualization of characters anyways? Who gives a shit if characters are drawn to be attractive or arousing? Which brings us to the next point:

"This is just another example of an exclusionary chunk of gaming culture."

Yeah. So he appears to be saying that, by having this sexualized character, this game is somehow exclusionary to women. Because apparently in his world, if a girl picks up a game and starts playing as a sexualized female character she will immediately throw the controller across the room and cry in a corner because she is just so goddamn offended that anyone would have the gall to acknowledge that women have boobs. It's like that time I played god of war and noticed that he was wearing a very short skirt and no shirt. I had to scrub myself for days because I felt just so excluded from the whole gaming industry.

Oh wait. No I didn't.

In fact, my girlfriend just finished playing Odin Sphere, another game by the same company. And look at this character that was in it.


But how can this be? Surely she should be excluded from this part of gaming culture by virtue of the fact that that lady isn't wearing pants! Why isn't she outraged by the fact that a fucking CARTOON is drawn in a sexualized manner. Oh, I know, it's because she's not a goddamn idiot. She's a sensible human being who doesn't feel like cleavage is an affront to her gender.


And here's the final thing. The final unspoken kernel of idiocy that underlies this entire goddamn tower of self-righteous indignation. You know that whole argument that bad female characters are detrimental to society? That kids playing mario is teaching them that women are helpless and need to be rescued? Or that your female sidekick helping you out is just teaching them that women are here to do your bidding?

Yeah, thats the exact same argument as "Violence in videogames are to blame for violence in real life." So congrats, if you think that animated tits jiggling around is actually affecting society, rather then reflecting it, then you might as well believe that Doom programs children to murder and that we're just sheep who will do and believe whatever mr.tv tells us to.

So I'm just gonna post this

It's something that a woman replied to the original post by Mr.footinmouth.

And now I'm going to go back to bed. And you can wake me up when this whole stupid mess has blown over and games journalism actually means something again.
 

Smooth Operator

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Oct 5, 2010
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Well thank you mate, because we haven't got enough sexism wars here you bring some from Kotaku of all places...
You are really just fueling their need for drama, but the only way to win with these people is to exclude them from discussion until they get their shit together and act appropriately.
 

piinyouri

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Mar 18, 2012
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Yeah.


Honestly, Dragons Crown is a beat-em-up in the style of Golden Axe.
The characters don't even have personalities, and what little they may have, it's unimportant.

Just a guy actively looking for a molehill.
 

CloudAtlas

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Mar 16, 2013
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Piecewise said:
That this whole "Feminist" frenzy, this whole trend of gaming journalists leaping on the kneejerk band wagon for publicity sake, has reach it's apex of idiocy.

So Mr.Schreier, of the fine rag that is Kotaku, comes out and decides that he's gonna complain about how the character in some game is scantily clad. Already, we're in "was this really worth a goddamn article?" territory.
So is this article, consequently, worth a goddamn forum post then?
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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Piecewise said:
Oh, in the part in parenthesis he talks about how, apparently, when women are portrayed in skin tight clothing, kicking ass and taking names, it's sexual objectification. But when men are shown in skin tight clothing, kicking ass and taking names, it's a power fantasy. I guess that explains why you never see women cosplaying as one of many scantily clad ass kickers from fantasy. OHWAIT! Here's 100+ images of exactly that!
http://wildammo.com/2012/05/28/comic-con-101-sexiest-female-cosplay/
I dunno, you're not making a very compelling argument there - I looked at few of those images and here is what I could see - boobs, boobs, boobs, ass, boobs, boobs and ass. And then there were some that I couldn't even see the cosplayer - there was literally just a picture of a girl's ass. Actually two of them - the ass is the most prominent thing - you can't even see the front of them, not to mention the head - that's not in the picture. Or do you seem to believe that "sexy" means "sexual pandering". Can women not be sexy if they show less skin than cloth?

Do I feel nitpicky? Because you do.
 

waj9876

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Jan 14, 2012
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"Has a very childish face that resembles lolicon imagery."

Nope. Done! I'm out, I stopped reading there.

She doesn't. She really, really doesn't. A normal anime-like face isn't lolicon imagery. Just...fuck.
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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All of the Dragon's Crown characters are...pretty out there, I gotta say.


I do like how the Barbarian classes pretty much have the same amount of cloth.
 

MetalMagpie

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Jun 13, 2011
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Not sure exactly why this attention-seeking idiot needed more attention drawn to him.

Remember how your mother used to say "Just ignore them" when the other kids were saying mean things? On the internet, it's very good advice. Idiots like this just aren't worth getting worked up about.

Come back when someone in my government says something like this (i.e. some whose opinion actually affects my life).
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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Kopikatsu said:
All of the Dragon's Crown characters are...pretty out there, I gotta say.


I do like how the Barbarian classes pretty much have the same amount of cloth.
Are the bottom two the barbarian classes? If so, I think the male has more cloth. Well, that's based on my belief that the female is wearing chainmail bikini...somewhere there. The surface of both would be approximately the same, though.

But I feel compelled to ask WHAT'S WITH THEIR HEADS? The female's head is about the size of her fist. I'm not sure if the male either doesn't have a neck or his head is just halfway out of his torso like an indecisive but angry turtle.

Also, the sorceress...is there something wrong with her back? I don't think that's a natural pose, then again, with such a rack I'd imagine she probably has some spine pain/problems, so I guess that'd excuse it.

The knight just looks...unstable, I suppose. Now, I'm not really that good at anatomy or even drawing people but I'm pretty sure that the shoulders and upper torso are at least twice as big as what would be dangerous body proportions. or maybe his upper body is only 1.5/2 times the dangerous level but has really bulky armour which is still too impractical. I'm pretty sure he'll end up resembling a turtle too - just push him back once and he'll be all armoured and stuff but on his back and unable to go back on his feet.

The sorcerer and the...ranger? Seem the most normal. Although the ranger has legs that might put Bayonetta to shame (I think they are close to twice her torso) and...there is something odd about the sorcerer proportions but I can't pinpoint it. I think his head is a bit on the smaller side for his body or maybe his shoulders are a bit to wide. But among the rest he could pass for normal.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Vanillaware Ltd. has been doing its thing for ages now, why is this such big news? Didn't you guys play Princess Crown, Odin Sphere, Grim Grimoire...? Fuck it, watch any damn anime, read some manga. Japs like their big tits on females.
 

go-10

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Feb 3, 2010
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are any of you artist?
have any of you thought that maybe, just maybe this isn't sexism and just the art style the artist was going for. You know an over the top super deformed body types in a fantasy world. This particular art style used to be all the rage back in the 80's and 90's in Japan. Just look at anime/manga from that era, particularly anything by Masami Obari (Bastard, Gowkaizer, Orgun, Voogie's Angel, Dangaizer 3, etc.) he focused on using wrestlers and body builders for the men and super models and porn stars for the girls and put them in fantasy, modern, or sci-fi settings or you can go further back and look at anything by Go Nagai with arms and fist resembling Popeye, sphagethi women, and side burns that would rival the beard of god; its just an art style that within the world and fantasy of where it exist works.

Stop bickering and complaining about everything you are not the holy justice man of women everywhere, even my girlfriend is tired of these men that claim to be against all female objectification and without realizing it objectify women by saying they can't have big boobs or dress in clothes that make them feel sexy. Some girls like dressing like that, my gf is all the rage for the Sorceress and mostly is because of her design, its daring and unique, something most developers, mostly western developers, wouldn't dare do because the are morally correct and all that crap
 

Bug MuIdoon

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They should all look androgynous, wear woolen granny sweaters and be as sexualised my 84 year old next door neighbour, because no one wants to see fantasy in a fantasy game, right?
 

Erttheking

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I have to say I'm starting to reach the point where some over sexualized characters loop around and start to look kinda disgusting to me. C cups are more than enough thank you very much. Really this art style in gaming is just starting to feel kinda immature.
 

Lovely Mixture

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Jul 12, 2011
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I fucking love Vanillaware's art, they make both the men and women look awesome. Been following Dragon's Crown for a while.

GZGoten said:
But the OP is criticizing the attitude you described.
 

Tom_green_day

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Is it wrong that I feel the person from Kotaku makes a pretty good argument? It's a good, well rounded argument that isn't in any way overly feminist, and in my opinion points out a flaw in the industry...