"The Foundry Was Merely A Setback!" - WoW/SWTOR Discussion

[Fappy]

I played WoW for a few years and recently hit 50 in The Old Republic. During my tenure in Azeroth I encountered a countless number of people who constantly complained about how WoW had butchered Warcraft lore with each new expansion and how all these beloved heroes and villains were used, abused and then kicked to the curb. I chalked this up as Blizzard simply using big name characters to keep fans of the franchise subscribed... well, after playing a few weeks of ToR it has become very evident that Blizzard isn't the only one's capable of butchering/perverting their own lore in order to give fan boys boners (or kill said boners).

I am more familiar with the Star Wars EU (extended universe) than most, and believe me I know: there is ALOT of stupid shit in the EU (some almost as bad as the prequels), but I always considered Kotor I & II to be the exception of the rule. Yeah they both had their own problems (II more than I), but overall they were really solid stories and I really hate to see them ruthlessly shat on by the very people that made it so great (seriously Karpyshyn, what the fuck happened?).

For the non-spoiler aspect of the discussion (for those who don't want TOR/Revan novel spoilers) I'll ask: what made Blizzard exploit their lore/characters? Why do you think Bioware is now following in their footsteps (among the other various ways it has copied Blizzard ).

Now for those who know of the fate of Revan and/or those who don't give a shit about ToR spoilers the following is more specific musings over how Kotor's story has been mutilated by ToR:

Spoiler

So if you've played enough of ToR/read the Revan book you probably have a decent idea of Revan's standing in the universe as of the current ToR patch. Lets make a quick checklist of things that happened to him since the end of Kotor I:

- Marries Bastila (canon dictates he is a male, chose lightside and banged Bastila's sexy ass)
- He helped Canderous find Mandelore's mask
- He traveled to the planet that the ToR Emperor force raped and was subsequently captured and interrogated by Sith for 3 years
- The Exile (main character from Kotor II, has a canon name, gender and ending as well), comes to his rescue and is portrayed in Drew's recent novel as a generic fanfic female jedi and displays Drew's misinterpretation of the Exile and Kotor II's story as a whole
- He, the Exile, Darth Scourge (some Sith who befriends Revan) try to stop the Emperor. Scourge betrays them because he has a vision another "champion" is destined to kill the Emperor in the future. Stupid, but roll with it :/
- Revan is imprisoned in some kind of super-magic prison of non-aging that has his mind connected to the Emperor (for reasons never explained) for 300 YEARS. Revan is able to prvent the war for 300 years and even forces the Emperor to make the Treaty of Coruscant.
- A Republic strike team frees him and he has apparently gone completely bat-shit bonkers over the last 300 years. He runs off to "The Foundery", the Star Forge but it makes droids instead (atleast its more creative than rebuilding the Death Star)
- An Imperial strike team finds the Foundry and attempts to kill Revan. He "dies" (aka teleports at 2% HP probably via Rakata bullshit-tech) and will presumably come back at a later point in the MMO's lifespan.

There are a million things wrong with the above and I could go into every minor detail at length if people actually wanted to hear it, but believe me... you don't. First thing's first: they should have kept these characters (minus the droids) in their own era. Let the Kotor games be important from a historical standpoint. If you wanted to use Revan why the fuck does this game have to take place 300 years later!? Its the same backwards logic used when they decided to kill Commander Shepard in the beginning of ME2 just so they have a bullshit excuse to have him/her work for terrorists when they revive him/her five minutes later.

Also... WHY THE FUCK DID THEY RETCON REVAN'S FALL!?!?!?!? This is arguably the most important aspect of Revan's past prior to the events of Kotor I and is vital to his character arc. ToR's retcon dictates that Revan and Malak confronted the Emperor with the intent of killing him and were instead mind controlled, turned evil and sent back to the Republic to test their strength. This is where it gets even more retarded: the darkside was so powerful in them that they FORGOT they worked for the Emperor... in fact, they lost all knowledge of the Empire entirely somehow and thought they were the only Sith out to conquer the Republic. This retcon is so stupid, nonsensical and unnecessary its almost hard to compare it to <insert popular Marvel/DC comic retcon here>. It makes Revan's character arc far less compelling and renders half of the conversations about Revan in Kotor II completely and utterly worthless. I need to stop... I'll go on about this forever if I don't stop here...

Anyway, yeah I am pretty pissed about all this and I know plenty of others are as well. Suffice it to say, I hate to see Revan (and others) dangled in our faces and used as plot devices to sell subscriptions. I hope I am done with this game before Revan inevitably returns Kael'thas style and announces, "THE FOUNDRY WAS MERELY A SETBACK!"

/rant

 

[skywolfblue]

what made Blizzard exploit their lore/characters? Why do you think Bioware is now following in their footsteps (among the other various ways it has copied Blizzard ).

Are you talking about the fact that they brought him back as a boss, or the fact that they butchered the lore?

I've never really had a problem with the former. An MMO is powered by progression. The story goes on and a string of bad guys to kill keeps the subscribers paying. It especially helps if bad guys are established figures in the lore. WoW wouldn't have been very good at all without Illidan and Arthas as bosses.

As for the latter, no excuse. There's some times where "butchering the lore" turns out better, (Draenei Retcon). I've not played ToR but I'm guessing from reading the spoiler that this is not one of those "for the better" retcons.

 

[Fappy]

what made Blizzard exploit their lore/characters? Why do you think Bioware is now following in their footsteps (among the other various ways it has copied Blizzard ).

Are you talking about the fact that they brought him back as a boss, or the fact that they butchered the lore?

I've never really had a problem with the former. An MMO is powered by progression. The story goes on and a string of bad guys to kill keeps the subscribers paying. It especially helps if bad guys are established figures in the lore. WoW wouldn't have been very good at all without Illidan and Arthas as bosses.

As for the latter, no excuse. There's some times where "butchering the lore" turns out better, (Draenei Retcon). I've not played ToR but I'm guessing from reading the spoiler that this is not one of those "for the better" retcons.

Its hard for me to argue on WoW's behalf because I played very little Warcraft myself. I was simply echoing much of what I have heard from many other fans of the characters. In WoW's case at least the inclusion of these characters made sense... I.E. WoW doesn't take place 300 years after Warcraft 3.

 

[Jandau]

SPOILERS, I guess...

First to adress Revan's status in the game: This is a combination of two factors, one good and one bad.

1. People want to meet and interact with notable characters from the IP. There's nothing wrong with this, a popular IP draws people in and they would like at least some major characters to show up.

2. Developers are sometimes lazy. The easiest way to accomplish 1. is to toss the major character in as a boss fight and be done with it. No need for clever writing or further character development, just make them a punching bag.

Now, I'm not saying major characters should NEVER be used as boss fights, but WoW really took it too far, to the extent that you murder roughly 90% of the cast of WC1-3(+FT). A better solution is to have the major characters participate in the events, but not as a simple boss fight. Maybe they are helping the players, maybe they are hindering them or competing with them. But just sticking Kael'Thas at the end of an instance and saying "There you go!" was a pathetic end to that character's story arc... or it would have been if they didn't decide to bring back Zombie Kael for the 5-man instance later, which was pretty much just beating a dead horse (well, Blood Elf).

As for Revan, he's MIA as far as TOR is concerned and hopefully he'll come back later in a more competent capacity. Making him an objective of a Flashpoint for Republic players was a cool way to reintroduce him into the story. However, then they turned around and made him a simple boss fight for the Imperials. But what really pisses me off is how they just killed off HK-47...

The retcon was silly. The only reason for it would be to make the whole fall of Revan less moraly ambiguous. "He didn't turn evil because the horrors of war wreak havoc with the minds and souls of all men, he turned evil because of Sith magic!". It's roughly the same principle why Lucas changed the whole "Han shot first" thing, to make the character less morally questionable. It sucks but it was done to make it more "kid friendly" in both cases, I suppose (which is retarded, kids can process such plots perfectly fine, even learn from them). What annoys me more as far as the lore goes is how the Exile is just killed off. I found the KotOR2 protagonist to be a more compelling character than Revan (who is a more cookie-cutter redemption story) and when I heard they just dropped an Anvil on her, I wanted to punch the guy who wrote that plotline.

All in all, the way the lore is being handled isn't really making me hopeful for TOR...

 

[Fappy]

SPOILERS, I guess...

First to adress Revan's status in the game: This is a combination of two factors, one good and one bad.

1. People want to meet and interact with notable characters from the IP. There's nothing wrong with this, a popular IP draws people in and they would like at least some major characters to show up.

2. Developers are sometimes lazy. The easiest way to accomplish 1. is to toss the major character in as a boss fight and be done with it. No need for clever writing or further character development, just make them a punching bag.

Now, I'm not saying major characters should NEVER be used as boss fights, but WoW really took it too far, to the extent that you murder roughly 90% of the cast of WC1-3(+FT). A better solution is to have the major characters participate in the events, but not as a simple boss fight. Maybe they are helping the players, maybe they are hindering them or competing with them. But just sticking Kael'Thas at the end of an instance and saying "There you go!" was a pathetic end to that character's story arc... or it would have been if they didn't decide to bring back Zombie Kael for the 5-man instance later, which was pretty much just beating a dead horse (well, Blood Elf).

As for Revan, he's MIA as far as TOR is concerned and hopefully he'll come back later in a more competent capacity. Making him an objective of a Flashpoint for Republic players was a cool way to reintroduce him into the story. However, then they turned around and made him a simple boss fight for the Imperials. But what really pisses me off is how they just killed off HK-47...

The retcon was silly. The only reason for it would be to make the whole fall of Revan less moraly ambiguous. "He didn't turn evil because the horrors of war wreak havoc with the minds and souls of all men, he turned evil because of Sith magic!". It's roughly the same principle why Lucas changed the whole "Han shot first" thing, to make the character less morally questionable. It sucks but it was done to make it more "kid friendly" in both cases, I suppose (which is retarded, kids can process such plots perfectly fine, even learn from them). What annoys me more as far as the lore goes is how the Exile is just killed off. I found the KotOR2 protagonist to be a more compelling character than Revan (who is a more cookie-cutter redemption story) and when I heard they just dropped an Anvil on her, I wanted to punch the guy who wrote that plotline.

All in all, the way the lore is being handled isn't really making me hopeful for TOR...

I read the Revan novel and after watching Drew butcher the character I didn't even care that he killed her... at that point I just wanted him to leave the character alone. What's worse is that (Jedi Knight story spoilers)

Spoiler

Scourge, the guy who killed the Exile because he had a vision he didn't understand joins the Jedi Knight player because he/she was the "champion" in his vision. Funny thing is, you don't actually kill the real emperor in the story. So... Scourge betrayed Revan and the Exile... for no reason. What?

 

[Svane]

I can't really speak for Star Wars lore since I don't know enough about it, however, the Warcraft lore is something that is continued in World of Warcraft. Saying Blizzard is 'butchering' the Warcraft lore is a bit overkill. They're adding stories, events and continuing the Warcraft universe and adding to the lore. I believe those who are saying they're butchering the Warcraft lore do not want the lore to continue, since the good old lore is what people have grown up with and learned to care about.

 

[Jandau]

I can't really speak for Star Wars lore since I don't know enough about it, however, the Warcraft lore is something that is continued in World of Warcraft. Saying Blizzard is 'butchering' the Warcraft lore is a bit overkill. They're adding stories, events and continuing the Warcraft universe and adding to the lore. I believe those who are saying they're butchering the Warcraft lore do not want the lore to continue, since the good old lore is what people have grown up with and learned to care about.

It's not so much a problem of them continuing the lore as it is that the lore is continued by making most notable characters punching bags. Even interesting characters like Kael'Thas are reduced to loot dispensers instead of, you know, CONTINUING THEIR STORY. The list of characters that got this treatment is not short, including Kel'Thuzad, Anub'Arak, Illidan, Kael, Vash, and so on and so forth. If WoW was continuing the lore and developing characters, it would be fine, but they mostly use it as a source of raid bosses...

 

[Nami nom noms]

While I agree that the storyline around Revan and the exile is pretty shocking after the original KoToR games, I do not think it too bad in the way he is used in TOR. It is fan-service, plain and simple.

As for Blizzard and Bioware raping thier lore... Meh, honestly, The exile was the only interesting character (and she wasn't bioware's), and I'm pretty certain they're going to reuse both again in future...
After all, what other lore is there that people know at this time?

 

[Svane]

I can't really speak for Star Wars lore since I don't know enough about it, however, the Warcraft lore is something that is continued in World of Warcraft. Saying Blizzard is 'butchering' the Warcraft lore is a bit overkill. They're adding stories, events and continuing the Warcraft universe and adding to the lore. I believe those who are saying they're butchering the Warcraft lore do not want the lore to continue, since the good old lore is what people have grown up with and learned to care about.

It's not so much a problem of them continuing the lore as it is that the lore is continued by making most notable characters punching bags. Even interesting characters like Kael'Thas are reduced to loot dispensers instead of, you know, CONTINUING THEIR STORY. The list of characters that got this treatment is not short, including Kel'Thuzad, Anub'Arak, Illidan, Kael, Vash, and so on and so forth. If WoW was continuing the lore and developing characters, it would be fine, but they mostly use it as a source of raid bosses...

It's still a lot more fun and cool to actually interact with those characters you've mentioned in combat rather then have to listen or read a dialogue from them and just have them standing around and look pretty. Beside I don't think it would be much of a success if they continued with the characters as a story book that is centred around few characters and have the World (..of Warcraft) be something smaller. World of Warcraft is an enormous world that players can interact with, using the known characters from the lore as a milestone so players can experience and be a part of the lore / story, and make the players be the heroes of the day that marks "The End" making you and I a part of the World... of Warcraft.

 

[demotion1]

Hey people. How can you claim that "my" Revan was not an interesting character? He/she was only boring if you shaped him/her like that.
I always thought Revan did not remember that he was working for the Emperor because his memory was wiped out when Malak betrayed him. In the end of KOTOR it says that he vanished a few years later and actually hinds that he is after the real Sith.
I agree that it is lazy to have Revan in KOTOR's timeline he belongs in a different era. I also agree that the storyline they came up for after the games is lazy and awfull.

 

[Jandau]

I can't really speak for Star Wars lore since I don't know enough about it, however, the Warcraft lore is something that is continued in World of Warcraft. Saying Blizzard is 'butchering' the Warcraft lore is a bit overkill. They're adding stories, events and continuing the Warcraft universe and adding to the lore. I believe those who are saying they're butchering the Warcraft lore do not want the lore to continue, since the good old lore is what people have grown up with and learned to care about.

It's not so much a problem of them continuing the lore as it is that the lore is continued by making most notable characters punching bags. Even interesting characters like Kael'Thas are reduced to loot dispensers instead of, you know, CONTINUING THEIR STORY. The list of characters that got this treatment is not short, including Kel'Thuzad, Anub'Arak, Illidan, Kael, Vash, and so on and so forth. If WoW was continuing the lore and developing characters, it would be fine, but they mostly use it as a source of raid bosses...

It's still a lot more fun and cool to actually interact with those characters you've mentioned in combat rather then have to listen or read a dialogue from them and just have them standing around and look pretty. Beside I don't think it would be much of a success if they continued with the characters as a story book that is centred around few characters and have the World (..of Warcraft) be something smaller. World of Warcraft is an enormous world that players can interact with, using the known characters from the lore as a milestone so players can experience and be a part of the lore / story, and make the players be the heroes of the day that marks "The End" making you and I a part of the World... of Warcraft.

I disagree with pretty much everything you just wrote. I'm not saying you're wrong, though. It's a matter of taste. I just think that it's a waste to just write off major characters from the Warcraft series as simple generic bosses. Arthas got a reasonably good treatment, being made a part of the whole WotLK story. He was made a part of the world and interacted with the players. He felt like a part of the story, not just some dude sitting at the bottom of a dungeon waiting for 5-25 players to come and beat him up for "teh epixxx". I would have preffered more characters got treated the same way. As it stands, it would appear that after the events of The Frozen Throne most of the major characters just found a nice hole to crawl up in and wait for someone to murder them, and that just feels wrong.

 

[Sixcess]

As has been said, writers get lazy and fall back on recognition of Big Names to make encounters feel significant or important.

It's not all bad. The downside of creating new and ever greater menaces is you end up with the old question of "if this enemy is so bad ass why have we never heard of them up until now?"

It's still not necessarily a good thing. City of Heroes got into the habit of wheeling out the high level Arachnos leadership (the big bads) so often they lost all credibility because we were beating them up all the damn time. Familiarity breeds contempt and all that...

 

[Fappy]

I would like to point out that Lucas after originally approving the K2 storyline decided that he didn't like it. In fact, that was almost certainly why there was no KOTOR 3. Apparently the idea that there could be motivations other than good or evil regarding the Force became upon reflection anathema to Lucas. Thus the scrubbing of the Exile character was entirely a Lucas led decision. I imagine that Drew was told to ignore a significant amount of the storyline from K2, which meant he would either have to create a similar character with vastly changed origins, or go with cookie cutter jedi. Since any expanded origin story would have had to go through the approval process with Lucas, he went with cookie cutter.

Do we really need more reasons to hate Lucas at this point? I really hope this is not what happened D:

 

[DustyDrB]

The treatment of The Exile and KotOR II's plot in general in the Revan novel and in what I hear of The Old Republic is a major thing turning me off from playing the game. I can usually just plug my ears and pretend I never encountered information in fiction that I don't like, but it's as if they have contempt for the great story and characters in KotOR II.

 

[RJ 17]

Yeah, gotta say that I become completely uninterested in the The Old Republic storyline when it became absolutely clear that they had no intentions of making KotOR III. That said, upon hearing how they've utterly bastardized the characters and stories that I thought were some of the best SW stories out there...yeah, seems like I made a good decision in my choice to skip over buying ToR.