The Golden Years of Anime

[Casual Shinji]

I love animation like that, but they're rare unfortunately. And it's usually only found in movies.

Check Sword of the Stranger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xryoNr_qhyI *(last battle, don't watch it if you're going to watch the movie.)
Also check 5 cm per second if you want great art.

It looks pretty good, though I've never been a big fan of anime shaky cam.

It's not just anime though. Western traditional animation peaked early too, and then sloped down never to reach that height ever again. You take a look at Pinocchio, specifically the end with Monstro the whale... The fact that all that was achieved with hand drawn frames is mind boggling.

 

[Therumancer]

I'll be honest, "Fan Service" is just fine and honestly one of the things that attracted me to Anime was that they weren't willing to pull punches when it came to the sexuality and violence the way western media did. My only problem with "Fan Service" is when that becomes the entire point as opposed to being something tacked onto an otherwise good work of science fiction or fantasy.

To be honest the golden age of Anime was during the 1990s. The relative newness of it and the expense of getting the stuff brought into the US meant that the people doing so were VERY selective of what made it to a US market, there was a reason why people were paying $30 for a VHS of a couple of anime episodes. As things became increasingly mainstream you started seeing more and more garbage being shoveled onto the market, while it was slow all through the 2000s we saw a ton of this garbage, most of it low grade, enter the market which lead at first to a fan boom, but then to eventually chasing away a fan base that didn't want to pay top dollar for low-grade, badly animated, badly written garbage. It didn't help that by going mainstream what was once ignored, flying under the radar, got attention from goverment censors who started seriously paying attention to the content and pretty much slicing out or softening a lot of the content, removing a lot of the ultra violence, or sexuality from the products. In some cases things going so far as titles like "Puni Puni Poemy" (an Excel Saga spin off) getting involved in legal battles in Canada and New Zealand. Which in turn seems to have lead to further censorship, and even Japan modifying it's work which was one time known for being irreverant in a "I didn't just see that, I really didn't" sense, to a more "acceptable" level before translation gets involved. Basically the international market and popularity having poisoned the well, leading to the degeneration of
the product itself to the point where not as many people even want it.

Such are my thoughts and observations.

I'm one of those people who can honestly say "I was into Anime, before Anime was cool" with an interest going back to the 1980s when I was pretty young (and I mean beyond Robotech), I was there when we started to see it rise during the 1990s, and then followed it after the new millenium for a while as my interest faded along with my abillity to find quality titles. Nowadays I could really care less for the most part. It hasn't gone unnoticed that even now most of the titles people talk about as being "awesome" are ones that were released as much as 10 years ago in the US. When something decent comes along it gets a lot of attention, but remains a flashpoint for anime discussion for a long time because it takes so long for anything else that is decent to come along, I look at say "Gurren Lagann" as an example of this, combined with the fact that I personally just considered it "okay", it mostly standing out due to a drought within the fandom.

I honestly have my doubts as to whether there will be much left of the anime fandom come 2020 unless things change.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The way I see it, it's a combination of two things. The first is that in the 80's and 90's, very little of Japan's animation output was making it overseas, and most of what was was the absolute best. The other thing is the moe explosion, which, while it has far from killed good anime, it has led to a drop in the kind of shows that made it popular in the west in the first place. But I think Sturgeon's law is the bigger issue here -- it used to be that only the best made it over, now the floodgates are open and we're seeing pretty much everything, so a lot of the good stuff is getting drowned out. Incidentally, for those of you living in the US, the Toonami reboot is doing what Toonami was always good at, which is introducing great new shows to its audience. I really hope they never pick up DBZ, because all that would do is fill in a slot that could be used for something new and mind blowing.

[sub][sub][sub][sub]As for the art styles, late 70's through the 80's 4 lyf [/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

 

[WindKnight]

The way I see it, it's a combination of two things. The first is that in the 80's and 90's, very little of Japan's animation output was making it overseas, and most of what was was the absolute best.

'best' is overstating it a touch. 'most attuned to blow a teen males mind and make them think this is the best thing ever' is more accurate. Stuff like MD Geist is one of the worst animes I've ever seen, but its fondly remembered for its 80's sensibilities, gory battles and nihilistic 'hero'

The other thing is the moe explosion, which, while it has far from killed good anime, it has led to a drop in the kind of shows that made it popular in the west in the first place.

[sub][sub][sub][sub]As for the art styles, late 70's through the 80's 4 lyf [/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Again, 'moe dominates all' is a misconception. Moe anime dont rate that well in japan. They do however, to repeat myself, laser-target a specific audience who can drop money on boxsets that cost peanuts to make.

Virgin-Fighter Mune-Chan might make little to no impact on the airwaves with only 500 fans, but if the producers know those 500 fans will lay down $500 for a complete boxset if they include a cd, art booklet and a replica of Mune-Chans battle bra, their golden.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The way I see it, it's a combination of two things. The first is that in the 80's and 90's, very little of Japan's animation output was making it overseas, and most of what was was the absolute best.

'best' is overstating it a touch. 'most attuned to blow a teen males mind and make them think this is the best thing ever' is more accurate. Stuff like MD Geist is one of the worst animes I've ever seen, but its fondly remembered for its 80's sensibilities, gory battles and nihilistic 'hero'

The other thing is the moe explosion, which, while it has far from killed good anime, it has led to a drop in the kind of shows that made it popular in the west in the first place.

[sub][sub][sub][sub]As for the art styles, late 70's through the 80's 4 lyf [/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Again, 'moe dominates all' is a misconception. Moe anime dont rate that well in japan. They do however, to repeat myself, laser-target a specific audience who can drop money on boxsets that cost peanuts to make.

Virgin-Fighter Mune-Chan might make little to no impact on the airwaves with only 500 fans, but if the producers know those 500 fans will lay down $500 for a complete boxset if they include a cd, art booklet and a replica of Mune-Chans battle bra, their golden.

I'll give you the first point, but I think with the second point you're the one who's laser targeting here. I'm not talking about Ecchi, I'm talking about shows like The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and K-On. Not exactly niche stuff.

 

[MSfire012]

For me there is no such thing as "The Golden Years". Yes, there is a lot of highschool, moe and fanservice anime nowadays. But fanservice has always been around and even thought nowadays Highschool slice of life and moe are the most common genres in anime, in the 80s and 90s there were other genres that were insanely common, like action shows.
Other thing: Back there there was no internet, and most anime simply stayed in japan. Very few anime were brought to the US, and they only brought ones that were marketable(and by that I mean marketable to children and teenage males). Now, with the internet and fansubs, people get to know every anime that comes out, and this makes people have contact with all the soulless generic trash that comes season after season.
Anime is not viewed as an art form and an way to tell deep and amazing story lines by the creators and studios(Most of the time), and that's why you see so much fanservice and moe stuff around. Since it sells, other people will make similar stuff to get money.
Final thing: Despite all of that, there is still a lot of fantastic (or at least very good) anime coming out nowadays. Even we are limiting to only 2006 onwards there is Death Note, Baccano!, Gurren Laggan, The Girl Who Lept Through Time, Kara No Kyoukai, Rebuild Of Evangelion, Madoka Magica, Fate/Zero, Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, Higurashi, Monogatari Series, Kids on the Slope, Spice and Wolf, The Haruhi Movie, Mawaru Penguindrum, Summer Wars, the list goes on and on.
Not saying that the 80s to the early 2000s anime were worst, god no. In fact, most of the anime I consider to be the best of all time were released in that time. The original Fullmetal Alchemist, Spirited Away, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Utena, Grave of The Fireflies and Princess Mononoke just to name a few, but that anime as a whole was better? No.

 

[Defeated Detective]

Macross Plus, which he considers one of the greatest animated series of all time.

But that's wrong, the greatest animated series of all time is Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

You might call this "opinion", and that pretty much correct, but it is undeniable that no anime can ever have a story that can match the scope and plot of LoGH, it is the biggest AND the best an anime can ever get, it features not only space, the final frontier, but also how politics and strife is eternal, it even tackles the difference between democracy and monarchy and how what ultimately makes a government good are the people who run it and the people they govern.

And did I mention how realistic the characters in this show feel? Even the characters in this series that have the smallest roles have their own personalities, no one is placed on where they are or the sake of convenience, every one of them, whether they're good or bad, have a purpose.

LoGH is one of the few anime that still exists that makes anime WORTH DEFENDING(as a medium). It is undeniably the Citizen Kane of anime, and the closest thing to Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek if it ever had to feature war.

 

[ninjaRiv]

I'm not really an anime fan but I know the stuff that attracts me to it is things like Full Metal Alchemist (to the point where I bought the manga which is not something I do) and One Piece. I love Akira (a fantastic piece of cinema) and Cowboy Bebop, too but not as much as the former two. And those are newer. So, yeah, maybe the classic anime is gone, although I don't think it is because when I look for One Piece, I still see things that pushed me away from it in the first place (most of the 80s and 90s stuff). But even if it is, the new stuff isn't bad. Perhaps people are just nostalgic for what they used to love? I don't say that as a bad point. I mean this stuff was pretty exclusive to those who sought it out and now everyone's into it. But can you really fault ALL of the new stuff?

 

[Casual Shinji]

It didn't help that by going mainstream what was once ignored, flying under the radar, got attention from goverment censors who started seriously paying attention to the content and pretty much slicing out or softening a lot of the content, removing a lot of the ultra violence, or sexuality from the products. In some cases things going so far as titles like "Puni Puni Poemy" (an Excel Saga spin off) getting involved in legal battles in Canada and New Zealand. Which in turn seems to have lead to further censorship, and even Japan modifying it's work which was one time known for being irreverant in a "I didn't just see that, I really didn't" sense, to a more "acceptable" level before translation gets involved. Basically the international market and popularity having poisoned the well, leading to the degeneration of
the product itself to the point where not as many people even want it.

America had been doing this sort of thing with anime since forever though. Sailor Moon got heavily censored, and not just because what might've been deemed inappropriate for children, but also to apparently make it suit the taste of the American audience more. The intro to Sailor Moon is different from the original Japanese version, and so is the one from Maple Town. Heck, the latter even had Shelley Duval added as a narrative frame. Why? Just cuz.

And I've never seen it, but the butchering of Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind is pretty infamous too.

I always prized myself lucky having grown up in Holland. Practically all the kid oriented anime here, like the entire World Masterpiece Theater catalog, was bought over from Germany and France I think, who bought it straight from Japan. Meaning absolutely zero alterations.

 

[Vausch]

DBZ has a ton of really good stuff, and then gets marred down by the sheer amount of padded filling they put in (which I've heard is actually less than the manga series had?) and the convoluted nature of how dying is a serious thing, but only sometimes when the plot dictates.

If you're asking if the manga had more padding than the anime, no. Way off. The anime had to pad out the fights, transformations, everything they could because it was happening alongside the manga. Super Saiyan Goku v. Freeza took maybe 1 to 2 volume of the books to finish while the anime took over a dozen episodes thanks to the constant flashbacks.

Though I'd recommend tracking down DBZ Kai if you can. Most of the filler is removed, pacing and voice acting is a LOT better.

 

[shrekfan246]

DBZ has a ton of really good stuff, and then gets marred down by the sheer amount of padded filling they put in (which I've heard is actually less than the manga series had?) and the convoluted nature of how dying is a serious thing, but only sometimes when the plot dictates.

If you're asking if the manga had more padding than the anime, no. Way off. The anime had to pad out the fights, transformations, everything they could because it was happening alongside the manga. Super Saiyan Goku v. Freeza took maybe 1 to 2 volume of the books to finish while the anime took over a dozen episodes thanks to the constant flashbacks.

Though I'd recommend tracking down DBZ Kai if you can. Most of the filler is removed, pacing and voice acting is a LOT better.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah, I'd heard DBZ Kai abridged a lot of the stuff when they re-did it, never really bothered to watch it though because that was before I actually started watching anime again, which was only just in the last half-year or so.

 

[DSK-]

When I was a kid (7 or 8?) we had Sky with the Sci-fi channel. In the mornings you'd have cartoons like Bionic Six, Defenders of the Earth, Robotech (Macross), Ulysses 31 and other stuff. Then on Friday evenings they'd show anime like Tenchi Muyo, Dominion Tank Police, The Guyver and various movies (I remember watching MD Geist one time, rofl).

It took me many years later to figure out what they were again because their animations styles were so detailed and to mind, gorgeous.

OT: I'm unsure whether there is a Golden Age of anime. Every year has at least a couples of gems, and peoples' tastes differ greatly.

 

[mfeff]

In no particular order... Macross Plus (series and or movie) are both excellent. Outlaw Star is really good (although it is Korean if I am not mistaken). Sword of the Stranger as you mentioned is really good for what it is. Rune Soldier Louie is worth a watch. Battle Fairy Yukikaze is good stuff, Area 88 classic and reboot are also worth a watch. (A lot of stuff that was brought out by Manga entertainment is worth a watch). Saw someone mention Robot Carnival which is modern classic (again it was Manga which brought it to western shores).

Some of the distinctions while I am thinking about it are going to be as follows...

Fantasy New/Old: The older fantasy tropes and pulls heavily from the Dungeons and Dragons paper/dice game... more to the point from 2nd edition or even earlier frameworks. While more modern works tend to pull from video games and late edition role playing game fodder. Thematically it makes some difference, with the older stuff "tending" to have a little more grit and the newer material trending towards a high fantasy setup.

Mecha/Aircraft: Older mecha and aircraft drawing used to be (to my knowledge) material for study in many architecture and design schools in Japan. As time has marched on the importance of industrial and mechanical design has fallen off and as such as representational art, within the anime medium, we see it fall off.

as opposed to lets say... full metal panic...

The good and bad are a little subjective, what I want to focus on is the difference in direction. The full metal panic stuff tends to focus more on the movement rather than the "how" the thing functions. In my estimation this is a shift in science fiction to science fantasy. Which has been a very common trend in media, and not just in the East.

Dragon Age I -> Dragon Age II could be used to illustrate the point as well.

Concept art schools still maintain the tradition for mechanical design, but I don't know how many of those folk are transitioning into the anime film industry and which ones are moving into larger film, toy, or game markets.

I suppose if I had to make a case one way or the other, it is easier and cheaper to keep narratives character focused and the designs simple. Need less specialist to do it, which in turn may make the medium a little stagnant visually.

 

[Risingblade]

I don't really think there are any golden years of anime. There are always 3-4 anime per year that are good while the rest are god awful, it's always been that way.

 

[sextus the crazy]

For a guy who spends his time reviewing some of the absolute crap that was released back in his so called 'Golden Age', Bennett comes off as a little confused.

The very concept of golden years in any form of media is ridiculous to me. The only reason people look back at say, the 70s or the 60s (or in this case, the 90s) and say they were a golden year for anything is because all the lame, forgettable stuff has died and is barely known by anyone. From about the year 2000 to now has been astonishingly good for anime and manga, and consistently astonishing too. Fullmetal Alchemist (the original and Brotherhood), Baccano! FLCL, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzimiya, Eva Rebuild, Paprika, The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, Eden of the East, Death Note, Black Lagoon, Gurren Laggenn, Rahxephon, When They Cry, Elfen Lied, Monster, Code Geass, Hellsing Ultimate, Requiem from the Darkness ... There's a massive list of great anime that's been made in the past ten or so years. Even stuff like Highschool of the Dead was unjustifiably good. If that was made in the 90s, it would be poorly animated, badly dubbed shit.

The 90s did have some classic shows, but things only become classics over time and with hindsight. For every Cowboy Bebop there were a hundred Angel Cop's. You can complain about how modern anime is filled with fanservice, but it's no worse than it was in these so called 'Golden Years'.

Eh, I don't know.

You look at some of the features from the 80's and 90's, like Akira, Neo Tokyo Labyrinth, Robot Carnival, Ghost in the Shell, and Memories, and you see a skill there that doesn't seem to be present in modern anime anymore. This is mostly due to masters like Katsuhiro Otomo and Koji Morimoto no longer being active in the industry anymore, and no new talent really taking their place.

There was a lot of weird crap back then, but that's kinda what made a lot of it so interesting. You never really knew what you were going to get.

I also feel that ever since anime went digital it's lost a lot of its visual texture and warmth. You look at shows and movies from the 80's and 90's, and you can really feel the penmanship in the animation and the brushstrokes of the backgrounds. Now it all just feel too clean and sterile. Perfect example are the new Berserk movies. Jesus Christ.

There's still good stuff scattered around here and there, but nothing that truly breaks out and shows us what the medium of animation is capable of. Back in the 80's anime really gave Disney a run for its money in terms of pure animation prowess.

Show me something modern that can stack up to this.

This seems to be similar to the distaste people get when watching computerized special effects. Yes, the art looks different because
the technology is different. This doesn't make them worse animators in any sense, nor does it reduce the quality of the art. The fact that people prefer the art style of say trigun or cowboy bebop over lucky star does not make lucky star or post-90s animation worse. The 90s was only a golden age if you prefer older animation styles. Otherwise, there's just as much good stuff being pumped out today as there was in the 90s. And on the point the berserk movies, the fact that the development studio chose to use ugly 3D does not mean that all of modern animation is terrible. For every good hand-drawn anime of the 90s, there's plenty of stuff that looks like crap and/or doesn't hold up. Like the original Berserk anime.

and for a video response, here's one of the more striking animation moments in madoka magica.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Pretty much this. Anyone who makes an argument about anime's "Golden Years" knows nothing about the medium as a whole. Sturgeon's Law applies and so does subjective opinion. Just because you think something is bad doesn't mean it isn't. 2007 and 2011 are widely regarded by most anime enthusiasts for being some of the best years ever in regards to anime due to the sheer amount of high quality anime from a variety of genres. The industry is thriving after all. Here, have some images that mock such arguments.

So a subjective opinion means that I know nothing about the medium as a whole? Yeah, that's a hyperbolic argument if I ever heard one. I already said that I am not trying to deride modern anime. I have seen a number of shows and films which I regard as decent. I also said that I don't feel the same connection with these shows that I do with some of the older series I have watched. We might live in a time where acquiring good series is easier than ever, but I don't feel the same heart put into stuff nowadays.

After Spirited Away won an Oscar, that was the actual impetus for importing the massive amount of anime we see today. The boom from the 90s was suddenly amplified when western audiences realized that there was more to anime than just ultraviolence or kids shows. It also caught the attention of distributors, who bought up every license they could find in hopes of making the next Spirited Away megahit and strike it rich. That didn't happen, but there was still the massive influx of new shows.

The main problems that I see in modern anime (Yes, I can enjoy something and still be critical about it) is the sense of homogenization it suffers from. While Western Distributors were looking for the next Spirited Away, creators in Japan were looking for the next big anime to make a mark, and then copy the shit out of it. So you get series like NGE or Haruhi Suzumiya, which make a huge impact, and as a result get copied to death. Even venerable franchises like Gundam start adopting these new trends in order to increase the attention they draw from Otaku buyers, and it just feels like it dilutes the variety as a whole.

That is where my big problems lie. We might have gotten fewer shows in the 90s, and there was still a good amount of shit in there, but at least they were different. We didn't have fifty shows aping one show's style, simply because there was less of it out there. With the smaller market, things were more distinct, to the point where even if a show was bad, you could show an interest in it, because it was different enough from everything else out there.

 

[WindKnight]

The main problems that I see in modern anime (Yes, I can enjoy something and still be critical about it) is the sense of homogenization it suffers from. While Western Distributors were looking for the next Spirited Away, creators in Japan were looking for the next big anime to make a mark, and then copy the shit out of it. So you get series like NGE or Haruhi Suzumiya, which make a huge impact, and as a result get copied to death. Even venerable franchises like Gundam start adopting these new trends in order to increase the attention they draw from Otaku buyers, and it just feels like it dilutes the variety as a whole.

Only quibble there is what you describe fits every medium ever. Watchmen blows every comic readers mind? everyone wants dark and gritty heroes. Twilight is a hit? everyone wants a vampire/supernatural romance stories. ER dominates the ratings? everyone wants a medical drama. Halo does gangbusters on the xbox? everyone wants FPS's or games where your the ultra bad-ass space marine. Transformers made a pile of cash at the box office? everyone wants nostalgia and merchandising tie-ins. Nearly everyone chases whats big, usually missing what it was that made the big thing so big. But there is always someone in the shadows doing what they think is awesome, and their passion ignites a spark to light up the medium.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

The main problems that I see in modern anime (Yes, I can enjoy something and still be critical about it) is the sense of homogenization it suffers from. While Western Distributors were looking for the next Spirited Away, creators in Japan were looking for the next big anime to make a mark, and then copy the shit out of it. So you get series like NGE or Haruhi Suzumiya, which make a huge impact, and as a result get copied to death. Even venerable franchises like Gundam start adopting these new trends in order to increase the attention they draw from Otaku buyers, and it just feels like it dilutes the variety as a whole.

Only quibble there is what you describe fits every medium ever. Watchmen blows every comic readers mind? everyone wants dark and gritty heroes. Twilight is a hit? everyone wants a vampire/supernatural romance stories. ER dominates the ratings? everyone wants a medical drama. Halo does gangbusters on the xbox? everyone wants FPS's or games where your the ultra bad-ass space marine. Transformers made a pile of cash at the box office? everyone wants nostalgia and merchandising tie-ins. Nearly everyone chases whats big, usually missing what it was that made the big thing so big. But there is always someone in the shadows doing what they think is awesome, and their passion ignites a spark to light up the medium.

That's part of the reason for concern. This has happened to other mediums. And look what has happened to those other markets. It's slightly worrying to see similar trends that led to the Comics crash taking shape in the Anime industry, isn't it? The anime market is potentially in an even more volatile state than most, because the primary consumer base is much smaller than these other mediums. If the Otaku reject a show, it will fail in the eyes of the creators. The western market is an afterthought. Like someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the Japanese developers are very concerned with keeping their Otakus buying stuff at high prices, so they are actively removing the japanese audio tracks from certain north american releases to prevent the Otaku from getting their shows for cheap via importing.

The problems that I see are the shows continually downsizing to fit the whims of their small consumer base, until one day this bubble might burst in their faces. I think it is a legitimate concern, because a lot of the shows that are taken for granted over here survive only because the Otaku accepted them in Japan.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The way I see it, it's a combination of two things. The first is that in the 80's and 90's, very little of Japan's animation output was making it overseas, and most of what was was the absolute best.

'best' is overstating it a touch. 'most attuned to blow a teen males mind and make them think this is the best thing ever' is more accurate. Stuff like MD Geist is one of the worst animes I've ever seen, but its fondly remembered for its 80's sensibilities, gory battles and nihilistic 'hero'

The other thing is the moe explosion, which, while it has far from killed good anime, it has led to a drop in the kind of shows that made it popular in the west in the first place.

[sub][sub][sub][sub]As for the art styles, late 70's through the 80's 4 lyf [/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Again, 'moe dominates all' is a misconception. Moe anime dont rate that well in japan. They do however, to repeat myself, laser-target a specific audience who can drop money on boxsets that cost peanuts to make.

Virgin-Fighter Mune-Chan might make little to no impact on the airwaves with only 500 fans, but if the producers know those 500 fans will lay down $500 for a complete boxset if they include a cd, art booklet and a replica of Mune-Chans battle bra, their golden.

I'll give you the first point, but I think with the second point you're the one who's laser targeting here. I'm not talking about Ecchi, I'm talking about shows like The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and K-On. Not exactly niche stuff.

Just a parenthesis, everyone talks about Moe like it's the worst thing ever, but K-on is actually good and I liked Mitsudomoe too, usually the fan-base is what sucks.

LOGH

I have seen a lot of anime in my life, my top 5 is really solid. Logh is the only anime I know but haven't watched yet, I still have faith it might get into my top5.
I did watch the first episode already some time ago, but that's barely anything at all.

Well like I said, it hasn't necessarily killed good anime, just made the sort of stories that made anime popular in the west in the first place much, much less common. I haven't actually watched either of those series (I've seen parts of individual episodes, and what I've seen really didn't look all that bad), but I have seen their influence in other shows. They're kind of like the Watchmen to those other shows' Youngbloods, as other people have pointed out in the thread.

Edit: I'm talking about Haruhi and K-on here, never heard of Mitsudomoe before.