Can you elaborate? What was the hook, what makes it beyond comparison for you, and that you feel other people are missing out on and should appreciate?
Well, first off, while being JRPGs, they tend to deconstruct common JRPG cliches and turn them into meaningful and compelling plot points. For example, Suikoden III shows the beginnings of a war from three different viewpoints, one from each side, and a third person acting as a outside perspective on the coming conflict. There are rarely what you might call 'bad guys' in the story, just people with differing opinions on how best to do what is right, and these opinions lead to conflict. Even those who identify as 'evil' are shown as products of their own psychology and traumas, making them into tragedies rather than villains.
The games, as a whole, ask very difficult but potent questions to the player: How do you balance the need for social change with the military and political power often required to bring about that change? and how do you avoid becoming corrupt even if you succeed? as this power corrupts even the most forthright people. Pertinent, even today with the US on the brink of war with Syria.
As my favorite filmmaker Terrence Malick said: "the difference between art and entertainment is that art always respects its audience." Suikoden games respect their audience at all times. How many games can you really say that do that?
*edit
Oh, yes. So many add Deus Ex to their list of greatest stories ever told, however, I will give them one guess as to the series that is Warren Spector's favorite, and inspired him to make Deus Ex as deep and complex as it was.
Dark Souls, because even with all of the hard facts you can get, the only way to get a cohesive story out of everything is to use your imagination. Which means everyone will have a different take on what transpired. A shared but different experience for every player. Pretty cool.
I agree with this. Frankly, I'd argue that FFX had the best characters in the entire franchise, but I know that not everyone agrees. (usually pointing to Tidus' early whiny nature - which he overcomes - and the usually taken out of context laughing scene - which is meant to be awkward. Plus it has the single strongest female character in any video game - Yuna.
Eh, the laughing scene did not bother me. Matter of fact, I had no idea it was even a controversy until this year when a Youtube video said it was. Yay internets.
But I am going to disagree with you in regards to that group being the best characters in the entire franchise. I agree Yuna is a powerful female protagonist but, as I have not played every female protagonist to date I would not claim she is the strongest either.
Red XIII from FFVII is easily a stronger character, with a more compelling arc than Kimahri. Which is a shame for me, as Kimrahri was the one I wanted to like the most. But his plot line is weak and his growth consists of one battle on the side of a mountain. At least Red XIII continues to grow as the journey leads up to and after discovering the truth of his father.
So I gather from your opinion that you feel FF X was the greatest story you have come across in gaming?
As a little white-boy westerner not particularly fond of Final Fantasy (which is strange, as I love story in games more than anything) I'm afraid I can't join in on much of the conversation thus far. I'd say for sheer backstory powers I'd have to throw in another chip for Dark Souls. It really doesn't seem like a whole lot of story when you play (fun fact: there really isn't a story when you play) but it has the deepest subtext I know of in a game. There's a series on Youtube I've was watching when I first played it a month or two ago (I think it's called Prepare to Cry, but I could be wrong) in which one guy really delves deep into a lot of the tragedy involved in each individual character. It's really depressing, and really great because of it.
For sheer reversal I'd have to note Cry of Fear but keep it honest with Metro 2033. I speak more of the novel than the game (which to it's credit had an incredibly powerful moral point system first time playing) which was 400 pages of build up to the last 4 paragraphs. I wouldn't spoil it for people who don't already know the story, but it blew my little tenth-grader mind when I first read it.
I'm going to outright say that my opinion on this changes almost every day.
I don't think there could be a 'best story' in all honesty, but I have to throw another Dark Souls note in here. The way that game uses setting and context to build the world, while giving very very few actual info dumps is amazing. The mysteries surrounding it (Gwyn's firstborn, Priscilla's mother etc) leave something to the imagination which I think is crucial in making a memorable world- keeping the air of mystery.
I think a perfect example of this is the story of Kirk the Darkwraith. You are attacked by him multiple times throughout the game, and you assume he's just another "Dickwraith" out to selfishly steal humanity and don't give him a second thought.
However, if you pay attention, it seems pretty clear that he's collecting humanity for the sake of Quelaan. A character who is dying and needs humanity to live. Her previous source of said humanity was her sister, whom you murdered early in the game. This drives Kirk to work harder and harder for the daughter of chaos, eventually ending up dead.
It turns out, Kirk managed to trick Kaathe out of a Red Eye Orb and use it not to further the agenda of the serpent, but to help one who could not help herself. And you killed him, dooming her to her fate unless you take up the mantle and commit murder to help heal Quelaan. (but is it really murder if you are 'killing' undead? Was Kirk really out of line?)
All of this is conveyed without explanation. Most people who play the game will never think about the whole sad story of Kirk, Knight of Thorns.
It's already been mentioned briefly in the thread, but there's a youtube series called "Prepare to cry" that elaborates on some of the unclear, or simply unexplained characters and the tragedies central to the story.
I'm going to outright say that my opinion on this changes almost every day.
I don't think there could be a 'best story' in all honesty, but I have to throw another Dark Souls note in here. The way that game uses setting and context to build the world, while giving very very few actual info dumps is amazing. The mysteries surrounding it (Gwyn's firstborn, Priscilla's mother etc) leave something to the imagination which I think is crucial in making a memorable world- keeping the air of mystery.
I think a perfect example of this is the story of Kirk the Darkwraith. You are attacked by him multiple times throughout the game, and you assume he's just another "Dickwraith" out to selfishly steal humanity and don't give him a second thought.
However, if you pay attention, it seems pretty clear that he's collecting humanity for the sake of Quelaan. A character who is dying and needs humanity to live. Her previous source of said humanity was her sister, whom you murdered early in the game. This drives Kirk to work harder and harder for the daughter of chaos, eventually ending up dead.
It turns out, Kirk managed to trick Kaathe out of a Red Eye Orb and use it not to further the agenda of the serpent, but to help one who could not help herself. And you killed him, dooming her to her fate unless you take up the mantle and commit murder to help heal Quelaan. (but is it really murder if you are 'killing' undead? Was Kirk really out of line?)
All of this is conveyed without explanation. Most people who play the game will never think about the whole sad story of Kirk, Knight of Thorns.
It's already been mentioned briefly in the thread, but there's a youtube series called "Prepare to cry" that elaborates on some of the unclear, or simply unexplained characters and the tragedies central to the story.
See, that kind of stuff is amazing. Not because it is amazing, but because of the meaning it bears to the individuals who discover it.
I think it is important to consider that the question was not "What was the best story of all time to everyone, and prepare to defend your response!" I simply asked what people feel the greatest story of all time was to them. I have no intention, nor do I hope anyone else does, of claiming they are wrong, or that their story is stupid.
Gaming is a culture that includes the elaborate telling of stories, be it through text, music, or even the sheer act of gameplay. So in that respect, our favorite games and moments in games speak to us on a level beyond the visual. You have found moments and messages within a game that stand out to you, and make that the best you have come across. That is perfectly acceptable.
I know that I would easily consider the story behind "Shadow of the Colossus" to be up here, but I have never played the game, only heard retellings of the poignancy of it's plot. I could never claim it as the greatest to me, as I have never experienced it.
Everyone's experience is valid, in more things than just gaming, and that is what I am attempting to get to the heart of. Out of all of the stories, obvious or discovered, what has been the greatest to you?
Can I say the Saints Row series? Would that be gauche?
It really was a story about taking the real world for what it was, accepting one's self in the same way, and moving past all the pretense and societal norms that hold us down. It was about being so true to yourself that nothing, not gang bangers, not corrupt corporations, not the government, not even aliens could stop you from doing what YOU wanted to do. It was a game about freedom. And it was glorious.
Isn't that the problem we have in the world today? There are so few of us really willing to stand up for everything we believe in so readily and without thought of fear, and it has led to a perceptually silent society, afraid to challenge the status quo even when everyone knows it's wrong.
Stories don't exist in a vacuum and shouldn't be judged in one. It is for this reason, I think Saints Row is and always will be the greatest story ever told. Forever standing as the truest example of how to be a badass and give no fucks. Beautiful. Unflinching. And damn important.
Personally I really enjoyed Okami, I'm not sure if I would call it the greatest story, but I think it's certainly deserving of a high rating. I would say it earns a lot of points for originality to say the least.
Hmm suppose I would go with FFVII as its the one that stuck with me the most I also love almost all the characters at least in that game when they took some of them to other games they sorta ruined them imo. I like FFIV, VI and Xs story as well but VII was the one that I thought was (is) the best with the best cast overall.
Valkyria Chronicles would also get a vote for its fantastic story the way it is presented in the context of the game and its tackling of themes that I have seen very few other games do.
Persona 4 Arena was actually superb I was amazed how they crafted such a great story into a genre that usually has none or at least only a token story (because fleshing it out can weaken the story imo aka SF looking at you here).
The longest Journey just an awesome story I dont really like adventure games but holy damn this kept me hooked and then there was Dreamfall which was good but not as good and that ending WTF I am glad they are working on the next (last?) part now I want to see what happens.
Katawa Shoujo also had really good short personal stories I thought enough to keep me playing the game anyway because there wasnt much else there beside story.
I have missed off loads ofc but these are ones of the top of my head that stood out.
I find it interesting that you bring up the strength of FFVI characters making the game for you, because that is exactly what killed FFX for me. I have disliked very few characters as much as I disliked Tidus. The way in which his character blunders through everything, stumbling from "deep poignant inner voice", to "overly cocky and ignorant outer voice" just grates upon my nerves. How can he go from deep consideration about the pain of Yuna's quest one minute, to failing to understand/respect the necessity of tradition and seeker history the next. It just hurt my brain on more than a few levels.
I do enjoy the game though, primarily because Auron and LuLu are saving graces.
As for Planescape Torment, I have to confess, I never beat it, so I have no idea where that story heads. Something about the gameplay just crushes me about midway through.
I've theorized, and even wrote a decent essay on my old fried PC, that you could write Tidus out of FFX entirely, and it would change absolutely nothing in the story. The "romance" is haphazardly tacked on, and his (Very few) other moments of contribution could equally be done by Wakka or one of the other guardians
Different games approach story in different ways, and each creates something unique in the process.
Some are good with lore, some are good with characters, and some are good with environmental storytelling. I can't point to one and say it sticks out above all others.
I would at least agree that Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, while not being particularly deep or intellectual in terms, has one of the most elegantly told stories in gaming. It's simple, but has strong characterization to it.
As for the Best story, i couldn't tell really either. It's the same as asking what is the best story in movies. Many different approaches and apples-to-oranges situations.
I was always fond of Remedy's Max Payne Games. It may be bordering on parody, but i still like the genuine sadness, the characters, the (Ragnarok-Type) Apocalyptic Themes of the First Game as well as the Darkest-Before-The-Dawn Type redemption of the second one.
And while i wouldn't say it's that special as a whole, some of the arcs and storylines in the Mass Effect Trilogy are genuinely amazing.
Hotline Miami barely has a story, but it's themes and subtext are genius.
Thomas was alone is equally light on telling an actual story, but the way the narrative elements are woven into the actual gameplay is something i rarely seen, if ever.
I pretty much could find an endless amount of examples of great storytelling without ever giving a clear answer on what i consider best or favorite, so i guess i just st
I think... probably... Kingdom Hearts and Metal Gear Solid. The franchises as a whole, though the inaugural installments stand well on their own merits.
I love the plot of Kingdom Hearts for going large with its events, but staying domestic with its themes. And I think Metal Gear Solid appeals to me by doing the inverse for its plot.
I am personally going with The Last of Us. It manages to tell a typical "end of the world story" with a typical "mankind's last hope" hook and makes it into the personal journey of an unlikable, asshole protagonist and turns the convention on its' head by the turn the ending rolls around.
The end is beautifully orchestrated with its' ambiguous message. Is Joel condemning mankind to extinction by refusing to sacrifice Ellie for his own selfish needs? Or is he saving himself and Ellie and giving them both a chance to be a part of mankind's real chance of a future: to rebuild from scratch, without the baggage from a society that is collapsing upon itself?
I'd have to go with either Silent Hill 2, Spec Ops: The Line.
Both tell stories in a way that only video games could tell. Spec Ops utilizes player agency to yank the rug out on the person playing and instill a sense of guilt. Silent Hill 2 uses twisted imagery and dark metaphors that manifest themselves in the environments you traverse in the game to tell its story.
There are quite a few games that had memorable stories. Silent Hill 2 and MGS2 for having experimental themes and narrative. It's a shame there never have been games quite like this. The Legacy of Kain series for being one of the best vampire stories ever made. Deus Ex Human Revolution for having a unique aesthetic re-inforcing a dose of near-future realism. The Souls games for having intriguing stories without an actual (cohesive)narrative(which is only possible in a videogame). And still many others like Last of Us, Mass Effect 2, the MGS series in general etc. which stories I still remember fondly in one way or another.
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Well, clearly the drive to collect coins while wearing plumber overalls and climbing through pipes is a metaphor for the general drudgery we must all go through on a daily basis in order to make our loved ones happy. After all, what is a day job if not a symbolic scramble through sewer pipes in order to collect coins?[...]
2 Girls, 1 Cup. A story about love, loss and a lot of other shit thrown in there too. Definetly a must watch and the pacing is perfect.
That aside I can't think of anything, generally most recent examples stick out at me the most, but for the sheer scale of it; gotta say Mass effect (including the ending).
Which is more controversial the first or second statement?
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