The increasing hostility to games as art, games journalism, the industry, and Mass Effect 3.

Recommended Videos

BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
4,367
0
0
So, ever since the ME3 ending thing, I have noticed something.... Different about the gaming community. Mostly that there is a huge increase in hostility to nearly every damn source. Their was already some hostility to game journalists before, but it was only increased to an insane degree with the ME3 ending. Same with devs. I can't walk two feet without someone hating pubs or Bioware. Those who label "games as art" have suffered a similar fate. They are called "pretentious snobs", "anti-consumer", "stupid", and less nice names.

And you know what? AM I SICK OF IT. ALL OF THIS DAMN HOSTILITY. I BLOODY HATE IT WITH A FIERY PASSION. People cannot bloody take opposing views to them anymore. Even people who are considered "big names" in this community are acting more snobbish, elitist, and hateful than the people they love to decry. Why can't we clean up our act? When did we become a community filled with hateful, cynical trolls? I love games. I really do. And I want to share that love with people who have similar passions and feelings to me. But so many are making it so damn hard to want to be part of the fecking community.

Let get it out of the way: I think games are art. I think it would be nice for the culture at large to consider them that, but I don't care all that much. I do not think pubs are evil. I do not think that games journalism is evil and inherently corrupt. Nor do I hate those who have different opinions to mine. Troll me and flame me all you want. I don't give a crap. Because I find it hard to care about what the gaming community thinks any more.

/rant

For discussion's sake: Do you feel the same as me? If so, when do you think the hostility of the gaming community reached boiling point? If you do not feel the same as me, why? Do you see something that I might be missing, that redeems the community?
 

Hal10k

New member
May 23, 2011
850
0
0
It's the internet. We have the collective attention span of a cocker spaniel on meth. Trends like these last two months, tops. By then we'll have moved on to the next big crisis and the general attitude will have dissipated.
 

BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
4,367
0
0
Hal10k said:
It's the internet. We have the collective attention span of a cocker spaniel on meth. Trends like these last two months, tops. By then we'll have moved on to the next big crisis and the general attitude will have dissipated.
I don't know. It is coming up on 2 months already, and these trends show no signs of disappearing. Hell, the ME3 things has died down, but these remain still very prevalent. I would not have made a thread about it otherwise. :/
 

Hal10k

New member
May 23, 2011
850
0
0
BreakfastMan said:
Hal10k said:
It's the internet. We have the collective attention span of a cocker spaniel on meth. Trends like these last two months, tops. By then we'll have moved on to the next big crisis and the general attitude will have dissipated.
I don't know. It is coming up on 2 months already, and these trends show no signs of disappearing. Hell, the ME3 things has died down, but these remain still very prevalent. I would not have made a thread about it otherwise. :/
We just need another attack dummy for the internet's hostility to manifest itself towards. These trends usually last two months or so because by then the internet moves onto the next target. Something else in the industry is bound to go kaboom at some point, and I'll be waiting with a deck chair and various unhealthy snacks.
 

Rawne1980

New member
Jul 29, 2011
4,144
0
0
I disagree with you slightly.

I don't "hate" any publisher or developer because I wasn't a fan of any to begin with. I am a fan of games I don't care who makes them as long as they keep on coming. I have no "loyalty" to any specific developer mainly because I can't name one developer that has a flawless track record.

You brought BioWare up so i'll use them as an example. I liked KOTOR and the 2 Baldurs gates. I liked NWN. I liked DA:O and ME1.

That is all.

The rest of their games I didn't enjoy so I can't say i'm one of their fans. Same with the others.

And that's also why I have no issue buying used games. I don't buy games to keep developers happy I buy them to keep me happy. Selfish? Yes. Does it concern me? Not in the slightest. If developers want me to spend my hard earned money on their games then they need to make them worth it or give me the money to buy them.

If I may act like a small boy for one second, it's my money and i'll do what I want with it so ner ner.

Now, as for games as art....

Nope, I don't see them as art I see them as a product I purchase to enjoy. I have no problems with people that do see them as art but i've been gaming for close to 30 years and I don't feel like changing my opinions ... because i'm stubborn ..... and because I couldn't possibly dredge up enough emotion to give a toss about what people think of how I pass my time. If people view gaming as "for kids" then i'm more than happy with that.

Why?

Because my body may be getting old but I still feel young in my head so if people want to say i'm immature for playing games then they are more than welcome to. Just like Peter Pan i'm staying young forever ... ignore the grey hairs.

As for when all this reached boiling point....

About the same time some journalists starting calling people "babies" ... See the "official" Playstation magazine. And words like "entitled" being thrown about like a used tennis ball.

I really dislike that word, it annoys me when I see people use it.

We all know certain journalists are biased towards certain publishers/developers it happens and it isn't really a big deal. Some of us are quite capable of forming our own opinions about things without the aid of a review. When you read so many reviews telling you how great something is only to find out that pulling your own teeth would have been less painful you learn to stop listening.

You also have to bear in mind the internet is full of people that all have their own opinions. We will never agree on anything entirely or at all.

It's not a new thing. Some of us have had our opinions about all this for many years.
 

jensenthejman

New member
Aug 22, 2011
75
0
0
I agree to some extent. However, when the whole thing happened, some journalist sites (gamespot, IGN) took Bioware and EA's side, that's when it got heated. Gaming journalism has some apparent corruption. Sorry, but it does. Game sites need ad revenue and good scores mean free review copies. After all, why would a publisher want to send a game to a site where they've been given bad reviews? Now, I may very well be dead wrong about that topic. However, when it came to the ME 3 ending, the gaming press should have known better. They also should have actually listened to our arguments (I'm looking at YOU MovieBob. And don't even get me started on that douche Colin Moriarty at IGN.)
Bioware haven't been doing themselves any favors with their other games either. Dragon Age 2 being a disappointment to most people, and Bioware telling them that they were wrong about it. The Old Republic being WoW with voice acting and coated in Star Wars paint. Not to mention the 'fan service' to KoToR fans, if you could even call it that.
You're right though. There does need to be less hatred within the gaming community. I personally don't care about the games being taken seriously debate, considering that they already are, not just by us gamers. As for the games are art thing: of course they're art. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong in my eyes.
 

OldDirtyCrusty

New member
Mar 12, 2012
701
0
0
Not sure if i see something you`ve missed but with the ME ending uproar it was clear that a gap between consumers and game journalists/developers/publishers exist.

Most so called proffesionals turned down valid points of a big fanbase. They tried to tone it all down as if there was a small group of lunatics attacking the ending and Biowares artistic deciscions(which are out of context regarding the ending - at least to me). The way most "proffesionals" wrote about it seemed biased and the whole discussion showed which writers seemed to be really independent from publishers/developers. Alot of people were pissed over this.

My (former) favorite print magazine lost my trust over the ME3 discussion. I have no plans buying it again.

Gamers are mostly customers of an industrie which is not used to this kind of talk back. Over the last two years more and more bizarre DLC practices are tested. The whole "we have to stop the used sale". Publishers invent game "services" like origin. Offline players are locked out. The complaints were always there it just get`s more because the marcket is bigger than ever. I`m personally sick of feeling like a test subject, i try to find my holes and support what seems worth supporting.

I don`t think it all has reached the boiling point, it`s not that hot, it`s just bitching. Aslong as i`m paying for something it`s my own fault, it was my fault for being uninformed. Only sales are going to make a change.


The sad thing is it usually works - enough people are buying. With ME3 it didn`t worked so well, lot`s of people love this series and saw the bullshit behind the art excuse.

Oh, and videogames are art to me. I don`t like every picture but it`s all art.

Hopefully you get what i`m trying to say (englisch isn`t my naitive language).

EDIT: Damn, i`m so slow. i could have been the second poster.
 

BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
4,367
0
0
Hal10k said:
BreakfastMan said:
Hal10k said:
It's the internet. We have the collective attention span of a cocker spaniel on meth. Trends like these last two months, tops. By then we'll have moved on to the next big crisis and the general attitude will have dissipated.
I don't know. It is coming up on 2 months already, and these trends show no signs of disappearing. Hell, the ME3 things has died down, but these remain still very prevalent. I would not have made a thread about it otherwise. :/
We just need another attack dummy for the internet's hostility to manifest itself towards. These trends usually last two months or so because by then the internet moves onto the next target. Something else in the industry is bound to go kaboom at some point, and I'll be waiting with a deck chair and various unhealthy snacks.
But, I don't want it to be like that. I want gamers to hold ourselves to a higher standard than your common internet troll. But, that does not seem to be happening, and when people do say that we should, they are shot down. It frustrates and annoys me, because I do not want to be associated with these people. But I am because I call myself a gamer. I want the gaming community to be a great place for all to be involved with. But it does not look like it will be anything close to that in the future. :(

EDIT: Also, anyone else notice that the forums have been on the fritz recently? Seriously, this thread had 143 pages at one point, for some reason. :/
 

Terminate421

New member
Jul 21, 2010
5,773
0
0
This site is prone to causing wars over topics like these.

Ideas are up for debate all the time.
 

BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
4,367
0
0
Terminate421 said:
This site is prone to causing wars over topics like these.

Ideas are up for debate all the time.
There is a difference between a good debate and a flame war. I see more of the later than the former.

Also, note: this is for the gaming community as a whole, not just this site.
 

him over there

New member
Dec 17, 2011
1,728
0
0
Mostly it was the realization that the idolized "Games are art and wonderful" thing came crashing down and they saw that developers were using it to tell everyone "If we acknowledge our game is dumb and stupid it's okay for it to be dumb and stupid because it's on purpose."
 

Kahunaburger

New member
May 6, 2011
4,141
0
0
him over there said:
"If we acknowledge our game is dumb and stupid it's okay for it to be dumb and stupid because it's on purpose."
This, in a nutshell. Although it's mostly Bioware, what with the whole "Dragon Age 2 isn't disjointed and riddled with plot holes - it's just a non-traditional narrative. I thought you guys wanted us to change up the formula!" (Although, come to think of it, I've seen this used to justify bad camera/controls in horror games, too.)
 

him over there

New member
Dec 17, 2011
1,728
0
0
Kahunaburger said:
him over there said:
"If we acknowledge our game is dumb and stupid it's okay for it to be dumb and stupid because it's on purpose."
This, in a nutshell. Although it's mostly Bioware, what with the whole "Dragon Age 2 isn't disjointed and riddled with plot holes - it's just a non-traditional narrative? I thought you guys wanted us to change up the formula!" (Although, come to think of it, I've seen this used to justify bad camera/controls in horror games, too.)
I think there is a thin line between being shit adds to the experience and detracting from the experience, usually in regards to controls because it impacts whether we are having an easy or difficult time. Difficulty in turn can be used to exemplify things like an enemy overpowering you or maybe hammer in that you are an incredibly powerful god of some sort. Shitty controls could be used in a portion of a game if you were like wounded or something.

Bioware essentially said "We fucked up bad, but you can't tell us to un fuck up because we fucked up on purpose to make you angry intentionally."
 

Emiscary

New member
Sep 7, 2008
990
0
0
"AM I SICK OF IT"? Well jeez, I don't actually know... if I had to guess I'd say yes.

And I can only speak for myself, but this was the point at which my rose colored glasses came off where games are concerned. I've become a skeptic, and I'm betting alot of other people have followed suit. That's what all this "hostility" you're talking about is, more or less.
 

Dandark

New member
Sep 2, 2011
1,706
0
0
I admit I have had a recent change in attitude toward the whole "games as art" thing recently. Before I didn't really care about it, I thought games were art but didn't care too much about trying to convince other people they are art however I didn't care much if people did.

Now I tend to look on it negativily because of all the people whining and bitching endlessly about the ME3 ending being changed and constantly moaning about people being "entitled" and all that crap. I just got sick of that and the whole argument for games needing to be confirmed as art by the public.
 

Imbechile

New member
Aug 25, 2010
527
0
0
No. This hatred is good, it means the people love and care about gaming. If they didn't say a word, it means they just don't care. If they are angry it's because gaming is changing for the worse.

BreakfastMan said:
And you know what? AM I SICK OF IT. ALL OF THIS DAMN HOSTILITY. I BLOODY HATE IT WITH A FIERY PASSION.
Okay. Can you please leave now?

Do you see the irony. You hate the people that hate Bioware, then you proceed to make a thread in order to express your hatred towards the people hating Bioware.

Do you see how stupid that is ???????

Being hateful and cyni......
BreakfastMan said:
Troll me and flame me all you want. I don't give a crap. Because I find it hard to care about what the gaming community thinks any more.
Ah.... Playing the role of the victim before the discussion even started.
Which means:Troll thread
8/10 - You got me
 

BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
4,367
0
0
him over there said:
Mostly it was the realization that the idolized "Games are art and wonderful" thing came crashing down and they saw that developers were using it to tell everyone "If we acknowledge our game is dumb and stupid it's okay for it to be dumb and stupid because it's on purpose."
Dandark said:
Now I tend to look on it negativily because of all the people whining and bitching endlessly about the ME3 ending being changed and constantly moaning about people being "entitled" and all that crap. I just got sick of that and the whole argument for games needing to be confirmed as art by the public.
Why? Why does stupid devs using stupid excuses change this? Do they stop games from being art forever? Or being considered art? I do not get this. :/
 

BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
4,367
0
0
Imbechile said:
No. This hatred is good, it means the people love and care about gaming. If they didn't say a word, it means they just don't care. If they are angry it's because gaming is changing for the worse.
You can care about gaming without acting like a joyless bastard who insults those who think differently than you.

BreakfastMan said:
And you know what? AM I SICK OF IT. ALL OF THIS DAMN HOSTILITY. I BLOODY HATE IT WITH A FIERY PASSION.
Okay. Can you please leave now?
Sorry, no. I care too much.

Do you see the irony. You hate the people that hate Bioware, then you proceed to make a thread in order to express your hatred towards the people hating Bioware.

Do you see how stupid that is ???????
I do not hate people that hate Bioware. Stop taking my stuff out of context. I hate the attitude that some people have and the stupid stuff that people do. Like the stupid Hepler thing. I hate that there are many who are insulting people for having different opinions. I hate the fact that the gaming community feels extremely unpleasant to be in right now. Get your stuff straight before you start accusing me of stuff I never actually said.
 

him over there

New member
Dec 17, 2011
1,728
0
0
BreakfastMan said:
him over there said:
Mostly it was the realization that the idolized "Games are art and wonderful" thing came crashing down and they saw that developers were using it to tell everyone "If we acknowledge our game is dumb and stupid it's okay for it to be dumb and stupid because it's on purpose."
Dandark said:
Now I tend to look on it negativily because of all the people whining and bitching endlessly about the ME3 ending being changed and constantly moaning about people being "entitled" and all that crap. I just got sick of that and the whole argument for games needing to be confirmed as art by the public.
Why? Why does stupid devs using stupid excuses change this? Do they stop games from being art forever? Or being considered art? I do not get this. :/
It doesn't disqualify games as art. People who play games howeverare discouraged from supporting devs who say theywant games to be art because they feel it is an insincere sentiment to dodge all criticisms.