But why? Why does one dev making stupid excuses automatically reflect badly on all others? Does it not reflect badly on that one dev, and no one else (unless they too use that excuse)?him over there said:
The increasing hostility to games as art, games journalism, the industry, and Mass Effect 3.
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I feel that you are part of the problem. You can't fight hostility with more hostility and expect everything to be all fine and dandy. So please stop makes threads about being angry at people who are angry. Let's all just get along~
I'm also tired with all the recent anger, but I don't like abusive publishers, and the "games as art" thing...
URGH.
You know who gets to write the canon for what art is in society? The art world. Those guys with the museums and galleries and art schools and the likes. Whether you like it or not, if they call it art, the general assumption is that it is considered art by society, even if you're the first to jump up and decry it as bullshit.
But of course, if I dare mention that, I'm suddenly being an elitist ***** and "art is a subjective, personal thing" and all the several thousand hours of my life dedicated to the practice, study of and discussion about art is completely invalid in making such an appraisal of video games as art in society.
I'm not telling you how you what to think about art, I'm trying to tell you why things aren't progressing better in society's perception of video games and what could be done to fix it.
But just fuck this, I'm tired of it.
Bring up "games as art", and people are throwing around whatever they want that's tangentally related to art an video games without having any sort of agenda or attempt to change anything. It seems about as productive as the threads decrying the issues of Halo 3.
URGH.
You know who gets to write the canon for what art is in society? The art world. Those guys with the museums and galleries and art schools and the likes. Whether you like it or not, if they call it art, the general assumption is that it is considered art by society, even if you're the first to jump up and decry it as bullshit.
But of course, if I dare mention that, I'm suddenly being an elitist ***** and "art is a subjective, personal thing" and all the several thousand hours of my life dedicated to the practice, study of and discussion about art is completely invalid in making such an appraisal of video games as art in society.
I'm not telling you how you what to think about art, I'm trying to tell you why things aren't progressing better in society's perception of video games and what could be done to fix it.
But just fuck this, I'm tired of it.
Bring up "games as art", and people are throwing around whatever they want that's tangentally related to art an video games without having any sort of agenda or attempt to change anything. It seems about as productive as the threads decrying the issues of Halo 3.
Games are art, art can be shit and contrary to popular belief; art can be changed.
Movies are a 'confirmed' artform and they constantly undergo screenings that can lead to huge development changes over how it was received. I don't really understand how holding something up as art is a get out of jail free card
Movies are a 'confirmed' artform and they constantly undergo screenings that can lead to huge development changes over how it was received. I don't really understand how holding something up as art is a get out of jail free card
That's how people work. Here's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_psychology] the Wikipedia page on social psychology, you'll recognize a damn lot of things.
Or to put it simply- in a group, people's opinions get amplified together into a jumbled mess of bias and paranoia that become actual beliefs. And what's the single largest group of people in the world, that also happens to lack the usual social barriers that keep people in line?
Yep.
Just take a look at the Bioware forums, people seriously believe that some/most reviewers get paid off and publishers plant moles all over the internet years in advance to clean up PR messes. Alone, they wouldn't believe this for a second, but the internet is an echo chamber, and when it keeps coming around and building up that bias, things like the Bioware forums can happen.
Or to put it simply- in a group, people's opinions get amplified together into a jumbled mess of bias and paranoia that become actual beliefs. And what's the single largest group of people in the world, that also happens to lack the usual social barriers that keep people in line?
Yep.
Just take a look at the Bioware forums, people seriously believe that some/most reviewers get paid off and publishers plant moles all over the internet years in advance to clean up PR messes. Alone, they wouldn't believe this for a second, but the internet is an echo chamber, and when it keeps coming around and building up that bias, things like the Bioware forums can happen.
Yes. I feel the same. I've been watching people go at one another's throats about very stupid things, and it just makes me shake my head in disgust.BreakfastMan said:
I don't know why. Growing pains, maybe? Someone (EC? Jim Sterling?) called this era the "Adolescence of Gaming" and I will say, it certainly feels like it.
I certainly hope it doesn't take gaming another 10 years to grow out of it. Ugh.
Better that people share their opinions about a given subject then having a stagnant wank fest where it eventually turns into a moldy turd.
And I hope they get to keep their opinions and not be silenced by those of thin skins and lack of tolerance.
And I hope they get to keep their opinions and not be silenced by those of thin skins and lack of tolerance.
I like to think of games as art, but I can't think of anything that comes out of EA as art.
They cut out chunks from games to monetize separately, often damaging the core experience, they choke studios with ever-shortening development cycles, not allowing them to further their craft, and they hoard licenses they have no use for, keeping them from people that can do something good with them.
Look at the support CD Projekt provide for their games, not for the sake of avoiding outrage or eeking out money, but because they want to get their product in the best shape possible. Look at the way Valve grows and evolves from within, instead of absorbing other successful enterprises, and the way they and Bethesda support the PC modding community. Look at all the indie projects Paradox give way to.
Those are companies that support video games as art. EA are anti-art. They buried Bullfrog, Origin, Westwood, Mythic, Pandemic and soon BioWare. They bastardized their franchises, while producing nothing themselves but sports shovelware, successful due to their monopoly on professional team licenses.
They deserve nothing but scrutiny and bile.
They cut out chunks from games to monetize separately, often damaging the core experience, they choke studios with ever-shortening development cycles, not allowing them to further their craft, and they hoard licenses they have no use for, keeping them from people that can do something good with them.
Look at the support CD Projekt provide for their games, not for the sake of avoiding outrage or eeking out money, but because they want to get their product in the best shape possible. Look at the way Valve grows and evolves from within, instead of absorbing other successful enterprises, and the way they and Bethesda support the PC modding community. Look at all the indie projects Paradox give way to.
Those are companies that support video games as art. EA are anti-art. They buried Bullfrog, Origin, Westwood, Mythic, Pandemic and soon BioWare. They bastardized their franchises, while producing nothing themselves but sports shovelware, successful due to their monopoly on professional team licenses.
They deserve nothing but scrutiny and bile.
I am trying to change stuff. You can't always change stuff with flowers and roses. :/Risingblade said:
There is a difference between offering criticism and insulting someone. You can disagree with Hepler's ideas, for instance, but not call her a "fat cow". Honestly, I want more the the former, much less of the latter, which I do not see.Chertan said:
See... This hasn't really changed my views on games as art at all, since I consider most peoples views on art to be ridiculous to begin with. The ME3 ending debacle has only confirmed and reinforced my views.
Yes, I see games as art, even after all the crying about dev's artistic integrity. Because I have always considered "artistic integrity" to be objecitivist bullshit. Quality is quality regardless of the source.
Through this whole thing I try to judge each individuals arguments on an individual basis (something very hard to do that I frequently fail at but I try.) Sooo... If someone is talking about "entitlement" or whatever, I ignore them if they are being stupid, and pay attention if they are being smart. This allows me to not get upset at the things you are getting upset at.
Which may or may not be a good thing. Passion is what frequently stirs change, and clearly your passionate about trying to stop stupid people from being stupid. WHICH IS AWESOME!!! Its just... Not something I can give my energy to. So I ignore the stupid people.
Yes, I see games as art, even after all the crying about dev's artistic integrity. Because I have always considered "artistic integrity" to be objecitivist bullshit. Quality is quality regardless of the source.
Through this whole thing I try to judge each individuals arguments on an individual basis (something very hard to do that I frequently fail at but I try.) Sooo... If someone is talking about "entitlement" or whatever, I ignore them if they are being stupid, and pay attention if they are being smart. This allows me to not get upset at the things you are getting upset at.
Which may or may not be a good thing. Passion is what frequently stirs change, and clearly your passionate about trying to stop stupid people from being stupid. WHICH IS AWESOME!!! Its just... Not something I can give my energy to. So I ignore the stupid people.
I think what caused the uproar was that no one was really representing the fans/consumers. Not Bioware, definitely not EA, but most shockingly, not the journalists. The journalists usually are the people siding with the fanbase and consumers, but now they were all fighting against them. The big ones, at least. The smaller ones tried to fight for the fanbase and consumers, or tried to stay neutral in the whole issue [small](and could you blame them?)[/small].
I think this led the fans do one thing: defend themselves. If the journalists couldn't defend them, they could... sorta. The problem was that the only way they knew how to defend themselves wasn't the way that they would be taken seriously by the rest of the public. Not to mention the improbability that they'd get noticed, anyway. They'd need to say some crazy stuff for people to get their attention. Hell, since it would also require every other fan to work together. However, not all of them would agree with smaller issues, which would lead to infighting. In short: RAAAGE!!!
As for the art thing... I dunno, really. Yeah, this came out'a left field for me. Considering how lots of people were trying to convince every other non gamer that gaming is an art form, it was surprising that they decided that games are products and not art. I guess that whole "setting gaming as an art form back ten years" thing made them realize that the whole "games as art" argument could be used against them.
I predicted this would happen: Neither the fans, the journalists, or Bioware/EA came out/are coming out good in all of this. Fans can't keep a level head, journalists didn't side with fans, considering how that's usually how it's supposed to happen, and do I need to explain Bioware/EA?
Yeah, I wish this rage would stop, too. However, considering what has happened, it's hard not to get pissed off along side them, either. I just wish that everyone would have kept a reasonable and level head about this. Like this guy:
... I... I love you.
So yeah, in short, I think there's legitimacy to the rage, considering how there's no one representing the masses, but the way it's being handled throws all credibility out the window. So yes. I'm tired of the rage and needless hate, now. There's no way to be justified anymore. Let's please stop.
I think this led the fans do one thing: defend themselves. If the journalists couldn't defend them, they could... sorta. The problem was that the only way they knew how to defend themselves wasn't the way that they would be taken seriously by the rest of the public. Not to mention the improbability that they'd get noticed, anyway. They'd need to say some crazy stuff for people to get their attention. Hell, since it would also require every other fan to work together. However, not all of them would agree with smaller issues, which would lead to infighting. In short: RAAAGE!!!
As for the art thing... I dunno, really. Yeah, this came out'a left field for me. Considering how lots of people were trying to convince every other non gamer that gaming is an art form, it was surprising that they decided that games are products and not art. I guess that whole "setting gaming as an art form back ten years" thing made them realize that the whole "games as art" argument could be used against them.
I predicted this would happen: Neither the fans, the journalists, or Bioware/EA came out/are coming out good in all of this. Fans can't keep a level head, journalists didn't side with fans, considering how that's usually how it's supposed to happen, and do I need to explain Bioware/EA?
Yeah, I wish this rage would stop, too. However, considering what has happened, it's hard not to get pissed off along side them, either. I just wish that everyone would have kept a reasonable and level head about this. Like this guy:
... I... I love you.
So yeah, in short, I think there's legitimacy to the rage, considering how there's no one representing the masses, but the way it's being handled throws all credibility out the window. So yes. I'm tired of the rage and needless hate, now. There's no way to be justified anymore. Let's please stop.
The idea that "Games are Art" only became unpopular after it turned out to be an inconvenient one; the masses shed that contention once they realized it would backfire if ever addressed.
I enjoyed ME3 - however, disliked the ending, and was initially warmed up slightly to the Retake movement, but after seeing how they conducted their image and their behaviors towards the developers and journalists, I began to diverge a bit. In my opinion, the position that consumer sovereignty should dictate artistic direction is just as silly as "authorial divinity." Kudos to the people that desperately wanted to work with Bioware, not against them. It was a terrible misunderstanding aggravated by sensationalism and hysteria on both sides. I'm looking forward to the Extended Cut, and hope it improves the narrative as much as promised.
Thanks for the post, OP. People need to stop flaring into a maddened blood rage upon learning that contradictory opinions even exist.
I enjoyed ME3 - however, disliked the ending, and was initially warmed up slightly to the Retake movement, but after seeing how they conducted their image and their behaviors towards the developers and journalists, I began to diverge a bit. In my opinion, the position that consumer sovereignty should dictate artistic direction is just as silly as "authorial divinity." Kudos to the people that desperately wanted to work with Bioware, not against them. It was a terrible misunderstanding aggravated by sensationalism and hysteria on both sides. I'm looking forward to the Extended Cut, and hope it improves the narrative as much as promised.
Thanks for the post, OP. People need to stop flaring into a maddened blood rage upon learning that contradictory opinions even exist.
While I don't really care if games are considered 'art' by the wider population, I can see where the hostility is coming from. What I know I don't want to see is an industry where any hack can hide behind the word 'art' like it's some kind of criticism-deflecting force field, and then to have everyone who's anyone in the industry rush to their defense and be unnecessarily disparaging about any fan who dares to suggest that improvements could be made to such a sacred piece of 'art'. This is pretty much what we saw with the ME3 ending.BreakfastMan said:
You see, I don't think it matters whether or not games are art because I don't think it matters if anything is art or not anymore. It's become such an arbitrary term. For example; people kept using the analogy 'You wouldn't ask a painter to change his painting after it's been hung up, so to ask Bioware to change the ending would be to invalidate their art.'
To this, I ask a simple question... Why is the painting 'art' either? I'm serious. What makes a painting, any painting, 'art' by default? Says who?
All that painting is, literally all that it is, is a piece of canvas with some brush strokes on it, encased in a frame and hung on a wall. That's it. That is the sum of its parts. Whether or not this is 'art' depends entirely on who's looking at it, and to call something 'art' is not to attach some new set of rules to it and to how it can be treated. It changes nothing, it means nothing.
Personally, so long as I am entertained, engaged, and emotionally invested in what I am playing, then that's enough for me, because these are real emotions and responses that I can trust in myself. Beyond that I don't give the slightest shit who wants to call what 'art'. But here's the thing, if I criticise a game in the presence of someone who enjoyed it, and they turned on me and said "Well what do you know? You're not an artist. You just don't get it and therefore you have no right to question the 'art', you dirty little pleb!" then that person is a pretentious tool, pure and simple.
This is the response we got from Bioware and the industry at large the moment we even started talking about a new ending. No negotiation, no consideration, no respect. They used 'games are art' as an excuse to exclude us completely from the discussion. Damn right we were gonna flip our shit about that, as well as get pretty disillusioned about the 'games are art' discussion in general. If we had known that calling something you love 'art' actually lowers your status as a fan of it rather than elevates it, we never would have asked for it in the first place.