The increasing hostility to games as art, games journalism, the industry, and Mass Effect 3.

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Gennadios

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Well, gaming "journalists" kind of walked into that one in their mad rush to cover the retake ME movement and just shitting all over it without any knowledge of the topics and very often even the endings.

For the record, I've lost respect for game "journalism" long ago, I'm on the Escapist for the forums and features, not the reviews.

I think this particular debacle just solidified feelings that the press is pretty much behind publishers, not the consumers. Or at least it made more people realize the fact.

As far as being annoyed by the "games as art" and "artistic integrity" arguments, we live in a world where features are regularly cut or left out of a game to sell as DLC. It's not artistic when it's a financial decision. Changing an ending or losing DLC sales to PO'd fans that no longer care isn't an artsy move, it's a business move.
 

BreakfastMan

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Jul 22, 2010
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Hammeroj said:
BreakfastMan said:
Hammeroj said:
Nope, sorry. You can toot your own horn with this "I just want everyone to be nice" rhetoric all you want, and have circle jerks with other people as you did in this thread, but I will have no part of it. If you want to picture everyone who's outraged at whatever is happening in the industry as a shit-smearing mongoloid, I can't really stop you from doing that, but if you, and people like you, keep making threads like these instead of trying to debate the actual points that are being presented, we're going to form an image of you as well.
Wow. Some people really just do not get what the hell I was going for with this thread. Despite the fact that I have repeated myself multiple times throughout.

To re-iterate:
I do not want "everyone to be nice". That is asinine. What I want is to not be insulted for having an opinion on something that others might not agree with. What I do not want is to see flame wars started over which internet video series people prefer. What I want is good, reasoned criticism, not mud-slinging.
Good, reasoned criticism already exists. On this site more than many others. The fact that you let idiots muddy the waters for you, which will always happen, is what's asinine.
I know it exist. I want to see more of it. I want to see it outnumber crap by 10,000 to 1. I do not want to see stuff like the Hepler controversy ever happen again. With the way the gaming community is now, that is never going to happen, and I want that to change. I do not want to be associated with the idiots. If you think I am asinine because I care enough about the community to want it to improve and to not be associated with hateful bigots, fine. Your opinion. This is mine.

If there's a strawman anywhere, it's in the very first post of this thread. You're painting everyone as violently raging insult slinging assholes with zero convictions, which is clearly not the case if you'd been part of this forum for even a month. Which you have.
If you want to read that, fine. I did not mean it that way, and nowhere do I think I ever said that. Additionally, I did not mean just the Escapist community. If I did, I would have said as much. I meant the gaming community at large.
 

pure.Wasted

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DrVornoff said:
Iszfury said:
In my opinion, the position that consumer sovereignty should dictate artistic direction is just as silly as "authorial divinity."
This attitude I like.
Agreed.

I've defended games as art before, but never to the extreme some have accused me of. My main problem with the Retake Mass Effect thing aside from the stupid name was how poorly they conducted themselves in public and how angry they got when anyone suggested something like, "Sorry it turned out that way for you, but don't you think you're overreacting?"
Still agreed.

I never bought the, "You can't change art," argument, though I do contend that it's not right to demand it. Go ahead and say it would be better if the creator changed it, but the volition to change should be the creator's own. If they choose not to change it and leave it with a glaring flaw, let them. It's their problem now.
But now, not so sure. A video game in isolation is art, just like a painting in isolation is art. But paying money to see a painting in an art gallery is business, and paying money to play a game is business, too. I'm not going to ask an artist to finish his painting if I don't like it, but I will ask the gallery manager where the hell all of the sculptures are, if the gallery was advertised as containing both sculptures and paintings, but has only paintings. We can quibble over whether demanding a refund would be appropriate in that situation, but the point is the question isn't off the table.

It's a very fine line we have to walk as fans-qua-consumers, especially with a company that so obviously cares as BioWare. (If they didn't care, none of this would have made a dent; look at EA's handling of every single COD release for proof, criticism bounces off them like oil off water) We don't want to jump down their throats... at the same time, if there is an opportunity to genuinely improve the product and make it better - for ourselves, for BW to be proud of, for posterity's sake - and BW, through being so close to it, can't see that opportunity... isn't it our responsibility to make them aware of it? This isn't a TV show like Lost, where you can't do a thing about a crappy ending because it involves people with million-dollar contracts who are now halfway across the world, and because you can't cut scenes out of an episode that exists on my disc. It's a game. They can very well cut crappy scenes out of the game by patching it, and add uncrappy ones by patching it, too.

In some ways it's a new approach to art, but then again, all media are different, and it's nonsense to ignore that fact. I can't borrow the Mona Lisa out of a library. Games won't follow all the same rules as other art media because there is no single prototype that all art media collectively adhere to.
 

ProtoChimp

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I'm scared to comment now because I get reported and am told I'm trolling for having a different viewpoint. Yes, more often than not I was unintentionally being a dick, but the last 3 times I was just having a different viewpoint and get reported, hell, I hesitate everytime before hittting the post button now, most of the times I decide it's not worth it and I delete the whole post, and I shouldn't think that way on here, the place I once claimed was the best site on the net.
 

Krantos

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BreakfastMan said:
Their was already some hostility to game journalists before, but it was only increased to an insane degree
Well, frankly they asked for it.

The bulk of gaming journalism came down really hard on the people raging over the ending.

"Cry babies"

"Entitled Brats"

"Howlers"

These are the sorts of insults you expect to see on the message boards, but this is stuff the "Journalists" were saying.

When this whole thing started it was just the ragers against BioWare/EA. Personally, I think the whole thing would have calmed down relatively quickly if that had been all. Instead the "journalists" started shooting their mouths off, insulting both the ragers and the gaming community as a whole (yes, several outlets extended the above insults to the entire community).

THAT'S when the shit storm hit. That was, and remains, the only thing about this whole fiasco that I'm upset about. I frankly don't care about the ending; it sucked, oh, well. I also don't care about people bitching about it. This is the internet. People *****.

"Journalists," however, should know better than to insult the very people who read their shit. This is a problem I've had with gaming journalism for a while, but this was the worst display I've ever seen. If you're in the media, you need to have a thick skin. People will say shit that pisses you off. You need to learn to deal with that. If you can't, get out of the business.
 

BreakfastMan

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Jul 22, 2010
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Hammeroj said:
BreakfastMan said:
Hammeroj said:
Good, reasoned criticism already exists. On this site more than many others. The fact that you let idiots muddy the waters for you, which will always happen, is what's asinine.
I know it exist. I want to see more of it. I want to see it outnumber crap by 10,000 to 1. I do not want to see stuff like the Hepler controversy ever happen again. With the way the gaming community is now, that is never going to happen, and I want that to change. I do not want to be associated with the idiots. If you think I am asinine because I care enough about the community to want it to improve and to not be associated with hateful bigots, fine. Your opinion. This is mine.
I, too, want the community to improve. Here's my way of going about it, though. Instead of raging about rage, which is a funny concept to say the least, I try my best to present my frustrations in a reasonable manner, and I try my best to keep the discussions intellectually honest. This approach, however better than others it may make you feel, is anything but constructive on any level.
I have tried and seen many others try (though not nearly enough). I have yet to see it work, and I am frustrated. Hell, I often feel that my voice is drowned out in a shower of awful. Hence, this topic which came out of that. If someone sees this and decides to change their mind, all the better. I will continue to "fight the good fight". But, I seriously believe that if forums all over the internet began to be filled with posts decrying and shaming the stupid, insulting part of the community, that portion would be drowned out by the good bits. Like if Christian churches flooded media outlets, decrying and shaming people like Jerry Falwell and the WBC, we would see a change for the better in the perception of Christians and in the community as a whole.

And I don't consider you asinine. I consider the idea of pretending like an entire community is little more than a pool of insults asinine. Which, going by your OP, seemed to be the case. After your clarification, ultimately, I consider you naive. People won't start acting nice just because you ask them to.
Some might. And really, what other choices do I have? I want to change it, but I can't control peoples minds much to my dismay. The only option I have is to get upon my soapbox and hope some may listen.
If there's a strawman anywhere, it's in the very first post of this thread. You're painting everyone as violently raging insult slinging assholes with zero convictions, which is clearly not the case if you'd been part of this forum for even a month. Which you have.
If you want to read that, fine. I did not mean it that way, and nowhere do I think I ever said that. Additionally, I did not mean just the Escapist community. If I did, I would have said as much. I meant the gaming community at large.
If there's anything like a gaming community at large, it's nowhere as violent and prone to mindless insults as you'd like to paint it.
Well, I never claimed they were violent. But, from what I have seen, they are certainly prone to mindless insults.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Yeah, I'm sick of it too. Both are far too hostile towards each other ATM.
Part of this comes down to the fact that many are here to debate their opinions IMO, and if someone presents an opposite opinion, they will debate that. However the passions of this debate have increased due to the ME3 ending fiasco, and each side has been painted with different labels due to their stances in the fight.


The "Games as Art" crowd generally are labelled as being anti-consumer as during the ME3 fiasco, many were. Many took the stance of "Its the devs game, they can do what they want with it, and you have to deal with it whether you like it or not because games are art". That IS anti-consumer. Its saying that sure, you purchased this. Sure, its crap and not what you thought you were getting, but its what the creator wanted to make, so you should be happy with it.
Was this the stance of every "Games as Art" crowd member? Hell no, many came out and said that the ME3 ending can't qualify as art as its that bad, or other statements that supported pro enders. Due to the defence of Bioware at the expense of the consumer by many though, they are now labelled "Anti-Consumer".

Likewise, the "Anti-Ender", or "Pro-Consumer" - or whatever you want to call it, these names are stupid - crowd are generally labelled as being entitled and whiny as many stated that they were OWED something by Bioware, and that Bioware HAD to make it for them. They acted entitled, and often came up with nothing but "I want my version of the ending", and thus came across as whiny too.
Did this reflect all [Insert Group name here] members? Again, Hell no.
The Retake movement originally started off quite good. They were not whiny. They did not act entitled. They delivered a perfectly fair Ultimatum - Fix this, or we won't buy your games again - a set of things that needed to be changed to satisfy them, and went about their protesting in a fair way. There was no "I want my specific ending", or "Wouldn't this ending have been better?" stuff, only "This is what us 66,000 people think needs to be changed in the ending. Do whatever you want with the ending otherwise, but these need to be changed". There were problems with some people in the Donation drive, and more recently their billboard idea was probably taking thing too far [Though I like the tagline: "To Clarify: We want a new ending"], but originally they were an organised and reasonable group of people. Many still are.



Honestly, this is one thing I can say with certainty that was bad about the ME3 ending - it has caused an even greater divide than normal within the Internet community. I doubt this will completely go away by the time the next crisis rolls around. Many are feeling intensely betrayed - IMO rightfully so - and will not forget this, or what they've learned from it, for a long time. They will likely bring up these points in future arguments on the subject, and each side will come out of the bombshelters for another war in each thread.
Its sad this has happened, but it has. I agree that people really need to calm down about it, but I don't see this happening across the entirety of the Internet for some time. Hopefully we can make some headway here, and form at least 1 safe haven from it - but only time will tell.



On the subject of reviewers being corrupt - I think its a fair rule of thumb that a reviewer working for a major company like IGN, especially a company with their own staff in the game being reviewed, will be writing a review trying to make it as positive as possible, and delivering a above-what-it-should-be-score, as they have to. There's a precedent for this thing, and its not too hard to see it happening elsewhere. I believe the Escapist did an article on the incident - A game reviewer was laid off because he wrote a negative review of Kane and Lynch 2 and the publisher threatened to pull funding.

You also can't deny that the scores given are waaay too high for what most games actually deserve. Even a lot of 'Hardcore' fans of ME3 - both siding with the ending, and against it - feel that the game deserved at best 7-8/10, whilst over 75 sources gave it 10/10. No matter what you think the game should have been scored, it is completely unreasonable to give it a 10/10 - label it a perfect game, nothing at all could be made better. That is dishonest. Yeah, there's nothing you might have had a major problem with, but there are almost always problems with a game - and ME3 had its fair share of them. A 10/10 should be a mark of absolute excellence, not simply "Above average made by a AAA studio".
 

Joccaren

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Something else I'd like to add:

Many people that are anti-ending or W/E are still Pro games as art.
They just acknowledge that art is also a commodity. If a company wants to sell its games - it needs to give up on the "We can't change because its art" BS, and change because its a commodity.

If they want to make games for free, and for the sake of art - rather than to earn money - then they are 100% entitled to that defence, and I doubt many people would attack them over their decision. If they want to sell their games though, you have to change them to suit what the audience wants, otherwise they're not going to buy the games any more.
 

Dandark

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BreakfastMan said:
him over there said:
Mostly it was the realization that the idolized "Games are art and wonderful" thing came crashing down and they saw that developers were using it to tell everyone "If we acknowledge our game is dumb and stupid it's okay for it to be dumb and stupid because it's on purpose."
Dandark said:
Now I tend to look on it negativily because of all the people whining and bitching endlessly about the ME3 ending being changed and constantly moaning about people being "entitled" and all that crap. I just got sick of that and the whole argument for games needing to be confirmed as art by the public.
Why? Why does stupid devs using stupid excuses change this? Do they stop games from being art forever? Or being considered art? I do not get this. :/
It's not the argument I look down on, it's the people who go on about it. I already think games are art and if I saw people going on about them not beng art enough or whatever then I just wouldn't care. Now due to all the whining throughout forums I tend to instantly think "oh here we go again" whenever someone brings it up.

I usaully do try to look at what they are saying and not make assumptions though.
 

ElPatron

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BreakfastMan said:
Those who label "games as art" have suffered a similar fate. They are called "pretentious snobs", "anti-consumer", "stupid", and less nice names.
And why is that? Perhaps because they value developers higher than the consumer? Because they have spawned pretentious developers who think they are gaming gods (the guy from Braid)?

Or because games being art doesn't matter at all as long as you are playing them?
 

Verzin

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Hal10k said:
It's the internet. We have the collective attention span of a cocker spaniel on meth. Trends like these last two months, tops. By then we'll have moved on to the next big crisis and the general attitude will have dissipated.
This is a true statement, but It's terribly depressing. It begs the question: does it 'have' to be that way?

just from my personal experience with people, I'd say....Probably Yes. It will probably always be this way. At least until it manages to become far far worse.

EDIT(forgot to add this):

Hostility seems to be amplified through the internet and the media. Small things are blown out of proportion and the collective rage of the public seems to shift with every new 'controversy'.
I don't think we can do anything about it.
 

Fidelias

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Look, you can't cast the blame entirely at this website, or gamers in particular, especially when it comes to the ME3 ending fiasco.

You have to understand, almost everyone who goes to this site has gaming as a hobby. We love our games, and we want GOOD games. A lot of us are also sick to death of being called "childish" because society views games as toys, when there are plenty that make some classic movies or books look like shit in comparison.

What really got people riled up with the ME3 issue, is that EA and Bioware's response was basically "Well, it's just too complicated for you to understand", and, "Quit being babies, play our damn game!".
Then they tried to use the games as art argument to say that they couldn't change the ending, because it's ART! This obviously got the ME3 fans pissed because EA was just using "games as art" as an excuse to get away with something.

And now, EA and Bioware, along with many members of this site, are STILL calling ME3 fans childish and stupid, even though it's been ruled a FACT that Bioware used false advertising.

If it sounds like I'm bitter, well I am. I was about to cancel my preorder when the infamous article was shone on this site, stating that there would be at least 16 completely different endings, affected by almost every choice you'd made in the entire series.

Basically, I bought this game because of that. And there aren't refunds for new games.

So that's why everything's so crazy right now. It'll blow over, if we give it time.
 

scorptatious

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I kinda have to agree with you for the most part. While I can understand some people's grievances with gaming as of late. (Mass Effect 3's ending for example) I don't like the direction the gaming community has taken.

We complain about every single little thing that the gaming industry does wrong, we look for things to complain about when a new title has been announced, and we have elitist mindsets that are prevalent on every different kind of gaming community. I guess it doesn't really help that big name publishers and developers have made a few bad decisions as well, which only fuel these fires.

I kind of miss the days when we played games for "fun". Back in my day I didn't worry about whether or not games were art or what the pubs were doing. I just played games that interested me and enjoyed what they had to offer. Sure, I can agree it's good to give constructive feedback when necessary, but I didn't rage when there is news of some random tv celebrity I've never heard of that plays a small insignificant part in the third part of an epic sci-fi trilogy. (Jessica Chobot in Mass Effect 3 if you don't know what I'm talking about)
 

Rooster Cogburn

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The 'games are art' argument used to be a nice heartwarming comfort for the community. Then some soulless fat cat decided he could use it to inoculate himself from criticism by the entitled plebs. It's transparent, evasive, and cynical. So sure, games are art. Great. But that's a pathetic excuse for making a shitty game or ruining some aspect of it. You're asking too much of people if you want them to take that seriously.

People are sick of getting jerked around by an industry that treats them like captive dullards. Most of the animosity is directed not towards those who try and fail but those who cynically and intentionally wipe their dicks on the faces of fans and consumers. And you know what? I have yet to see the frothing, bloodshot maniacs everyone is complaining about actually materialize. Most threads on Mass Effect 3, for example, consist almost entirely of reasoned, calm complaints about the game interspersed with incoherent, offensive, hateful, swearing rants about what a bunch of jerks the Retakers (or whatever) are.

I don't know if game 'journalism' (lol) is inherently corrupt, but it is systemically flawed for sure. And there are a lot of people who each deserve just a little sliver of the blame. I think George Orwell described the problem perfectly:

On the face of it, the book-ramp is a quite simple and cynical swindle. Z writes a book which is published by Y and reviewed by X in the Weekly W. If the review is a bad one Y will remove his advertisement, so X has to hand out 'unforgettable masterpiece' or get the sack... ...But the thing is not so crude as it looks. The various parties to the swindle are not consciously acting together, and they have been forced into their present position partly against their will.

In Defense of the Novel, George Orwell
[link]http://orwell.ru/library/articles/novel/english/e_novel[/link]

Remember when the Redner marketing group guy got in trouble for threatening to blacklist anyone who reviewed Duke Nukem Forever poorly? It's important to keep in mind who gets in trouble and why. No one gets in trouble for blacklisting. Redner lost their client because they exposed the scam to the public.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/111038-Duke-Nukem-Forever-PR-Agency-Threatens-Sites-Over-Bad-Reviews-UPDATED

For the record, passive-aggressive insults don't fool anybody. If you want to call the complainers unreasonable, argumentative jerks, just do it.
 

Casual Shinji

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Rooster Cogburn said:
The 'games are art' argument used to be a nice heartwarming comfort for the community. Then some soulless fat cat decided he could use it to inoculate himself from criticism by the entitled plebs. It's transparent, evasive, and cynical. So sure, games are art. Great. But that's a pathetic excuse for making a shitty game or ruining some aspect of it. You're asking too much of people if you want them to take that seriously.
What he said.

The "games are art" argument is being thrown around like some sort of "We're Worthy" badge these days, and I'm sick and tired of hearing about it. The whole issue has lost its meaning because of the numerous times it's been used as a shield against criticism.
 

Mikeyfell

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BreakfastMan said:
S to the N to the I to the P
Mass Effect 3 thread = Shot at 9:41 AM
Yay

See people are angry because we've been fighting for "Games as art" as a standard definition and the only reason most people went along with it was because us "artsy fartsy" pricks convinced the general gaming population that it was a no loose proposition. Our art games were going to get better and more plentiful and their Call of Duty wasn't going anywhere. So they supported us out of the goodness of their hearts, because they had nothing to loose.

Now Bioware deliver the worst ending the medium's ever seen and uses "Artistic integrity" as an excuse not to change it. Now hypothetically if someone namely all us "games are art hippies" didn't drill in to their heads that Bioware and by extension EA were incorruptible artists instead of toy makers who's only purpose was to please the audience they probably would have changed ME 3's ending after the fan backlash.

So yeah I'm bitter, and deservedly so. Bioware took all our hard work and pretty much trolled us for it.

I hope this helps you understand.