The inferiority of Animation as a medium or live action.

[Lilani]

The kid I once was did, but as I matured I had to push Disney aside. Just isn't for me.

Perhaps you personally don't like it, but that doesn't change the fact that Disney's style is what originally inspired the earliest Japanese animated shows and features. Disney's quality, multi-generational appeal, and adherence to telling stories that may not always be original but are certainly creative and carry the handprints of the artists who made them, are nearly uncontested traits of the company's work while the man was alive, and while things went a bit off the rails when Michael Eisner got all paranoid they're starting to get things back on track by putting the right people in charge. Disney was not only good at making cartoons both parents and children wanted to see, but also amazing at marketing the shit out of them without becoming a parody of itself like Hanna Barbera did.

Animation has a brief but rich history, and whether or not you like Disney the company has played a huge part in it, and most historians would agree there's more good to it than bad. The company can be shrewd and manipulative, and they're doing some rather obnoxious things with copyright law, but there's a reason it became so big and the reason it still remains this big and this independent to this day. When the show Disneyland first premiered, Disney made a deal with ABC and they aired it. Now Disney owns ABC. That's the kind of growth I'm talking about. Again, you can feel however you want to feel about Disney personally, but if you want to look at the history and current condition of both western animation and anime you're going to have to learn to look at Disney a bit more objectively. If you're going to collectively look at the works of the Walt Disney company and call them "shit" while mentioning none of the flaws that come with anime, then your authority on the matter is automatically zero.

 

[Queen Michael]

The reason why mostly Ghibli, Satoshi Kon or Mamoru Oshi come up is that these are mostly the only known ones that even dwelled upon the subject.

Preach, brother. These three seems to be "The creators we point at to show that anime can be serious." Kind of like how comics fans always mention Watchmen whenever they want to give comics legitimacy as a medium. Which is funny, considering that there actually are a lot of serious realistic dramas around in comics as long as you don't limit yourself to only American comics of the superhero genre, but on topic, I agree with pretty much everything you said here.

 

[Soundwave]

I've actually started to enjoy Disney more now in my late 20s for the first time since I was like, oh, twelve I guess. I've been sharing it with my son, and I've been picking up on a lot of things I didn't back in the day. Bear in mind I'm not watching any of that tinkerbell or superfluous sequels to the various disney princesses stuff.

 

[Elfgore]

The content makes it really difficult for anime to be accepted in western society. Look at Oreimo or Yasunga No Sora(I think), both have very strong incest themes, one even has incest sex. Now try putting a commercial for that on western tv. Both are really good shows, but the content makes them weird or unmarketable to the average westerner.

Another example, to much insanity and really fucked up violence. I want you to watch the video below this, start at about 3:06 and go until the end. Oh, should probably say possible spoilers for Higurashi or When they cry, so don't watch this if you plan to see it sometime.

Though this anime is dubbed, it would never be marketed on tv ever. We have children stabbing themselves and each other while laughing like mad men. We advertise horror movies on western tv, but nothing that is this violent and psychological.

So pretty much culture shock. I'm to lazy to even start on echhi, so I will just say violence and incest.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

As for animation offering more than kids entertainment.
Yea it could be but I doubt it will.
The reason why mostly Ghibli, Satoshi Kon or Mamoru Oshi come up is that these are mostly the only known ones that even dwelled upon the subject.
The way the anime business works seems to forbid it to grow in that direction. You either do a shonen kids show, ecchi stuff for the adolescent or straight up hentai for adults.
Other stuff is far and in between because there is little money to be made. So I don?t have any hope for that.

You shouldn't talk about things you don't understand.

Look at studio Ghibli films... Yes, there's the likes of Laputa: Castle in the sky, and Princess Monoke, but are you familiar for instance with 'only yesterday', or 'Ocean waves'? Neither of which have any fantasy elements whatsoever, nor much in the way of humour in them.
Meanwhile, although available in the west (probably simply due to Studio Ghibli's reputation), they have not been dubbed at all, like most of the other films like that.
Even Grave of the fireflies, a far more famous film, is pretty much a straight world war 2 drama...

(I could also mention films such as Perfect Blue, Millennium actress, Paprika, or Tokyo Godfathers - although admittedly, Paprika contains a lot of weird imagery, being mostly about dreams, and Tokyo Godfathers is arguably a comedy of sorts.)

This part that I've quoted is why I have trouble believeing that a reasonable amount realistic and serious dramas can be found in anime. Whenever I ask for some, people always recommend Studio Ghibli or Satoshi Kon and nothing else. It's like they're the only people in Japan who make that kind of stuff, or the only people who are good enough at it to make stuff that's actually worth recommending. Not syaing that they actually are, but I am starting to wonder why nobody can ever come up with anything else.

The intention was to illustrate the opposite point, that Ghibli, the "Pixar/Disney of the East" does do realistic dramas, they've just been completely ignored in the West. I do see your point, though. Part of the problem is we still don't get many movies. 99% of them are movies to TV series that were already localized (Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Haruhi Suzumiya, Evangelion, K-On, etc.). Even then we don't get all of them (y u no give us star driver movie?????). I actually have to give Sentai Filmworks - whom I normally mock mercilessly - some credit: they've released some movies with no pre-existing anchor over here, like Redline and Colorful.

The truth is as far as I can tell, "realistic" (add air-quotes as necessary) dramas are the flavor of the day in anime right now, like how giant robots were the taste of the eighties and harem made the early 2000's a more and/or less wonderful place. Now, are they any good?

No. No, they aren't. But they exist.

In the last anime recommendation thread, I said I can give you serious, I can give you thought-provoking, and I can give you good. Pick any two. Same thing applies here.

Also, because I have nowhere else to mention it I'll name-drop Kino's Journey, which is pretty much the best thing ever.

 

[Queen Michael]

Also, because I have nowhere else to mention it I'll name-drop Kino's Journey, which is pretty much the best thing ever.

I'm still annoyed that they only released one volume of the light novel series, and that the one they did release had the stories in the wrong order and changed plot details from the original. But at least we got the awesome anime, and...

Spoiler: You know, I'll just post this

 

[Diddy_Mao]

While it is true that a lot of animation is geared toward younger audiences you do see a marked increase in animated films and shows being produced that will also appeal to an older audience and even a few marketed to adults.

This idea that anime is the only alternative to Disney kiddie shows and movies is provably false.

What we need to get away from however is the idea that in order to market to an older audience the show needs to be crude or comedic (usually both.) While I won't turn my nose up at the occasional Squidbillies or Family Guy it certainly shouldn't be the high water mark for it.

 

[Abomination]

I believe you will see more animation being introduced as "adult" film and tv series.

Beowulf, for example, was a serious movie designed for older audiences and it was made in full 3D rendering.

Archer, the series, is a flash animated cartoon designed for older audiences.

My Little Pony has shown how people who grew up with cartoons will still enjoy cartoons in their older years, despite the show being aimed at a younger demographic.

 

[Able Seaman Staines]

There has been a slow shift to acknowledging animation in Western films. Obviously live action has been the standard for a long time in Western movies, and the big production movie companies are nothing if not TOTALLY TERRIFIED OF TAKING ANY CHANCES. This is a symptom of the cultural decay that corporations have brought to the USA. Rather than saying that they are trying to produce the highest quality movies that they can do, what now happens is that movie companies opt instead for middle-of-the-road inoffensive crap that is totally formulaic. The companies know what their demographic is, and they only pitch movies that meet the expectations of their demographic. As a result the age of live action movies as an art form is waning under the weight of its own staleness, with small movie companies forced into a ghetto of art house movies and fringe movie festivals. Most of the large companies have taken a stab at producing animation but they have never been serious about it, because just like a big army needing to re-equip to meet new demands, it is all too expensive to try something new. Their attitude: if it ain't broke don't fix it. Forget completely that movies are an art form, that is unimportant next to the life or death issue of the black bottom line.

But hang on there. There is also a hell of a lot of really sub-standard anime that is stale and formulaic, and even really promising challenging anime has often face-planted into mediocrity by pulling its punches.

In answer to the central question of this topic, I think the reason that Hollywood hasn't properly adopted animation as an adult medium is covered by the following points:

1/ There is a presupposition that it is a childish medium, and that presupposition is wrong, but entrenched.
2/ There is a ton of complacency in the industry. They haven't even begun to accommodate the internet properly in their business models for example.
3/ The industry is tooled up to produce live action, and complacency means they don't change what works.
4/ Japan has this part of the market covered and Hollywood feels as if they can't really compete, or can't be bothered trying to compete in a niche market the Japanese have covered. Yes that's the wrong way of thinking about it, but it is the prevalent way in the industry.

So to summarize, I think the reason that animation for adults is not produced in Hollywood is because of corporate complacency.

 

[Funyahns]

If Fox can run animation shows and do well on Sunday night. Then, there is absolutely no reason Disney could not put together a Marvel show in high animation with great animation and do well. I would be far more excited for say Hulk, if it was an animation and serious. If millions of people will watch Family guy I bet you could get millions to watch any number of actual well written and meaningful animated television shows.

In fact, I think it is something that DC should consider doing. Make a Flash T.V. show. Oh well. I am sure another season of Arrow will be amazing....wake me up if he ever shoots anyone.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

It would be interesting, sure. However, I doubt that they could stay away from trying to hire big name real actors to be voice actors. That means the same bloated talent budget as always is potentially there.

So yes, animation is not and should not be limited as a genre for the kids, but I don't think Hollywood could handle it without pressing it through the same ridiculously expensive filter it pushes everything through. How much money did they spend on The Lone Rider again?

If millions of people will watch Family guy I bet you could get millions to watch any number of actual well written and meaningful animated television shows.

Fun fact, most of the shows out there aren't well written or meaningful for long in live action TV. Eventually a show exhausts it's premise, or if it's more of a character drama, it exhausts the characters. Anime tends to not do this as often, with the exception of Shounen Jump, with 400+ episode animes. Most of my favorite animes are under 30 episodes and usually consist of two seasons. Why? Because for some reason the Japanese have realized that people get tired of certain sets of characters or will have their suspension of disbelief stretched when the big bad or whatever goal the protagonist is pursuing keeps getting delayed for hundreds of episodes. There's a reason Lucky Star only went for two seasons. Any more and you'd get bored of the characters. There's a reason Code Geass only went for two seasons, any more and it would seem like Lelouch was faffing about when he's got more important shit to do. It kills pacing in goal oriented shows and characters just get worse writing in character drama/comedy shows.

 

[DarkRyter]

I'm pretty sure the whole "people think animation is for kids" thing is a myth. I've never met anyone with such an opinion.

 

[Abomination]

I'm pretty sure the whole "people think animation is for kids" thing is a myth. I've never met anyone with such an opinion.

There are 3 people, at least, at my work who share the sentiment that cartoons are for kids. They're people of my own age too.

Trust me, they're out there.

 

[Funyahns]

It would be interesting, sure. However, I doubt that they could stay away from trying to hire big name real actors to be voice actors. That means the same bloated talent budget as always is potentially there.

So yes, animation is not and should not be limited as a genre for the kids, but I don't think Hollywood could handle it without pressing it through the same ridiculously expensive filter it pushes everything through. How much money did they spend on The Lone Rider again?

If millions of people will watch Family guy I bet you could get millions to watch any number of actual well written and meaningful animated television shows.

Fun fact, most of the shows out there aren't well written or meaningful for long in live action TV. Eventually a show exhausts it's premise, or if it's more of a character drama, it exhausts the characters. Anime tends to not do this as often, with the exception of Shounen Jump, with 400+ episode animes. Most of my favorite animes are under 30 episodes and usually consist of two seasons. Why? Because for some reason the Japanese have realized that people get tired of certain sets of characters or will have their suspension of disbelief stretched when the big bad or whatever goal the protagonist is pursuing keeps getting delayed for hundreds of episodes. There's a reason Lucky Star only went for two seasons. Any more and you'd get bored of the characters. There's a reason Code Geass only went for two seasons, any more and it would seem like Lelouch was faffing about when he's got more important shit to do. It kills pacing in goal oriented shows and characters just get worse writing in character drama/comedy shows.

I mostly agree. I do not want to watch 100s of episodes of really anything. Mostly because it turns into filler. I think that you would be able to do some interesting stuff though with the animation. One of my favorite books is the Dresden Files. Within each book it has its only story to tell. Very seldom does it leave you with completely on the edge at the end of a story. But. It still manages to put across a total arch at the same time. That is a way that shows should consider going. I am not suggesting that each episode be different than the next. But, I think each season should have a certain story to tell, while at the same time telling a long arch (Be it 2 seasons or 6). It seems nowadays some shows don't even think twice about long reach of the story.

 

[Julius Terrell]

Here's your problem: animation is not a genre. Animation is just as diverse as films and books. What's holding the industry back is that many people, including producers and writers, limit the possibilities of animation into specific genres and tropes. I don't have a preference towards books, movies, nor interactive media. A story is a story.

This is how I've ALWAYS felt. I felt this way as a kid, and wanted to explore those possibilities. Also, I became aware of the fact that Disney did indeed influence the look of Japanese animation. This is for the most part is what's hurting animation's potential in both countries.

I just get so sick and tired of people treating animation as something that can only be produced by Disney. It truly sickens me to my soul.

Edit: Satoshi Kon was another visionary who helped bring to life some truly unique shows. Jin Roh,Paranoia Agent, and millennium actress were some of his best works.

We also cannot forget Momoru Oshii. That guy is a genius. One of his obscure films "An angel's Egg" is one of the best films I've seen over the years. I urge everyone to see this artistic masterpiece.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Well, a lot of western animation looks childish, so you can't really blame people for looking at it and thinking that it is only for children. Even a lot of anime looks designed for teenagers at the oldest. Consequently, it is understandable that most people really never get into it unless they know, either from watching animation as a kid or through friends who watch it, that adults can enjoy it as well.

Of course, you can always give a description of what animation you watch that is more adult-oriented so that people would get interested. It's never taken me a long time to convince people I know that Wolf's Rain isn't for little kids, even if the name doesn't indicate otherwise. As far as I can tell, that's the only way we can get people out of the mindset that animation is for little kids, and getting them out of that mindset is the only way we will get more mature Western animation.

 

[RandV80]

My interest in this debate is the potential of animation for adaption of existing materials. Fantasy is my favourite genre, and for live action at the top of the list you have The Lord of the Rings trilogy for movies and Game of Thrones for TV.

Let me first say, if it can be done in live action, I'd prefer that over animation. However live action has a few inherent flaws. A movie has the budget to do things right, but time limits are a severe constraint. TV, especially if you're talking an HBO-type series, is better able to take on lengthy source materials, but suffers from severe budget restraints to create events like massive battles or the more fanciful stuff like magic or mythical beasts.

Lord of the Rings worked as a movie because it's the most well known piece of fantasy literature and the source material was lined up nice and succinct to be turned into a movie trilogy with minimal cuts. Game of Thrones works on HBO because that series is character driven, it's more about the people involved rather than sorcery, epic battles and magical beasts. These things pop up sparingly enough that HBO can budget it or as a last resort find some cheap work around (Tyrion getting bopped on the head).

I could think of a few other series that could work like either of the above (I'd pick Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy for a movie trilogy and Patrick Rothfus' The King Killer Chronicles books for a TV series), but regardless if there's the will or not what about series like Malazan: Book of the Fallen or The Wheel of Time? I'm pretty sure someone owns the 'movie rights' to the latter, but these series are far to large and complex to be worked into movies, and would be way to expensive to properly produce on TV, HBO budget or not. If we had a culture that was more accepting of animation for all ages like Japan, then no problem, we'd just animate them! But they don't do that here, so instead we just get nothing.

For the overall topic though about Hollywood not respecting animation, I think it's worth pointing out that animation works best with fanciful creations, historically the 'serious' side of Hollywood has been firmly grounded in reality. Oscar winners tend to be period pieces, historical, or modern drama's revolving around perhaps exceptional but otherwise ordinary people. You don't need animation for these kinds of work.