The Internet Needs Laws

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Silas13013

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Kopikatsu said:
seraphy said:
DMCA is abused by corporations all the time already. Just look at youtube. Videos that are clearly fair use are pulled down from there all the time for no good reason. These corporations are very rarely, if ever punished for their platant abuse of power.

And you want to give corporations more laws to abuse. No thanks.
Section 103 of SOPA says that anyone who abuses the system (IE brings down a site/video/whatever wrongly) will be thrown in jail on account of perjury and the site that got taken down will be paid restitution. Additionally, SOPA doesn't override fair use. SOPA only affects sites that are illegally making money off copyrighted material. Posting a youtube video or saying 'STAR WARS' in a forum isn't going to get you thrown in jail.

Check it yourself: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:1:./temp/~c112dvV5Hv:e29080:

I swear that people haven't actually read the bill and are just regurgitating what they hear from other people. FACT CHECKING IS IMPORTANT GUYS.

I also noticed how people raging on SOPA never bother to cite the bill. Well, there is the link to it. Read the bill and cite whatever you feel is worth citing.
SOPA does override fair use by not defining what a rouge website is, only requiring that a judge find that the site is rouge, which has already been made apparent that most in politics do not understand technology.

http://mashable.com/2012/01/17/sopa-dangerous-opinion/

Here is a good plain English version of the points of SOPA that people have a problem with. Asking people to read the law straight in its legal-jargon is unrealistic. Even educated people cannot be relied upon to interpret laws through all the muck, that's why lawyers exist in the first place. So saying "read the actual text" doesn't help your point and actually will confuse a lot of people, making the situation worse.
 

lord.jeff

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Buretsu said:
Frankly, I haven't heard ANYBODY in the anti-SOPA movement bring up any alternatives to the issue. And, really, until there is a viable alternative path, legislation is the go-to, quick-and-dirty 'solution' to the problem that will be presented.
http://wyden.senate.gov/issues/issue/?id=e881b316-5218-4bcd-80a1-9112347fe2f4

I only heard of this recently. I agree to many people are just bashing at SOPA and it's making everyone look like fear mongers, supporting bills like this would be far more effective then this how dare you touch my precious internet attitude that's going around.

The biggest problem with making laws to govern the internet is that they need a way to effect things over seas as it's all to easy to just move a server out of the States and make it untouchable.
 

OldNewNewOld

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Kopikatsu said:
seraphy said:
DMCA is abused by corporations all the time already. Just look at youtube. Videos that are clearly fair use are pulled down from there all the time for no good reason. These corporations are very rarely, if ever punished for their platant abuse of power.

And you want to give corporations more laws to abuse. No thanks.
Section 103 of SOPA says that anyone who abuses the system (IE brings down a site/video/whatever wrongly) will be thrown in jail on account of perjury and the site that got taken down will be paid restitution. Additionally, SOPA doesn't override fair use. SOPA only affects sites that are illegally making money off copyrighted material. Posting a youtube video or saying 'STAR WARS' in a forum isn't going to get you thrown in jail.

Check it yourself: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:1:./temp/~c112dvV5Hv:e29080:

I swear that people haven't actually read the bill and are just regurgitating what they hear from other people. FACT CHECKING IS IMPORTANT GUYS.

I also noticed how people raging on SOPA never bother to cite the bill. Well, there is the link to it. Read the bill and cite whatever you feel is worth citing.

Just a question, do you still believe in Santa Claus?
I mean, if you believe that companies will be punished for abusing the power they are given, then it's only fair to assume that you think that Santa Claus is real and every story about him is true.

There is already an insane number of laws that "punishes" companies for doing stuff, jet they are either never punished or they earned more by breaking the law then they must pay for doing so.
While on the other hand the average Joe pays 25k $ for every song that he/she downloaded.

Sorry to break the fragile, jet interesting world you live in, but welcome to reality.

At OP.
The internet already has laws. It's like you saying that there are no laws in the real world because there is crime. Laws will never prevent crime completely, they will lower them to some "reasonable" numbers.
Piracy is already under some almost "reasonable" numbers, so making a draconian law to lower the number by a full 1% isn't really the logical option.
YES, SOPA wouldn't do shit to pirates, it would shut down sites like the Escapist, but sites like the Pirate bay would still exist.
 

Guardian of Nekops

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May 25, 2011
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Buretsu said:
Frankly, I haven't heard ANYBODY in the anti-SOPA movement bring up any alternatives to the issue. And, really, until there is a viable alternative path, legislation is the go-to, quick-and-dirty 'solution' to the problem that will be presented.
We are already AT the alternative. Yes, people pirate games and movies and songs, but there are laws against such and the pirates occasionally get caught and brought to justice. Granted, it isn't perfect, but it's not as if nobody is buying this stuff any more because it's so easy to steal.

Think of this piracy like, I dunno, muggings or car theft. A shocking amount of the time, people get away with these things, fencing their ill-gotten gains through pawn and chop shops before disappearing into the night with their untrackable cash. However, we don't raze businesses to the ground because we SUSPECT them of trafficking stolen goods, and we CERTAINLY don't give the authority to do so to the individuals who feel they have been wronged. We have court systems for that, to make sure that people are not punished unfairly on a whim, and if most of the time those systems cost more than it's worth to stop the behavior then that's something we just live with.

Ultimately, the world of SOPA, where struggling content providers have to sue someone to prove that their online business deserves to still exist, would leave all but the very richest websites helpless against anyone who has this power to shut them down. If you think your favorite webcomics can afford to hire a lawyer to fight some corporation mad with SOPA-power, can even afford to TRY to reverse the guilty-until-proven-innocent assumption it represents, then you are out of your mind.
 

Neaco

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Aug 17, 2009
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Thunderous Cacophony said:
It's a 'thin blue line' sort of situation; we make laws about what should or shouldn't be allowed, criminals try to find ways to perform illegal acts, and the police work to make each new way unviable. I want to know if there is some way to keep it to a minimum; for instance, if I recall the furor over IP addresses running out a few months back, the internet needs some restructuring; is there perhaps some way we could build safeguards into the system?
IPv6: its underway, and its being developed differently.
 

DarkRyter

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Dec 15, 2008
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Complete and utter lawlessness is entirely preferable to even the slightest increment of government control.
 

Jspider

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Buretsu said:
Frankly, I haven't heard ANYBODY in the anti-SOPA movement bring up any alternatives to the issue. And, really, until there is a viable alternative path, legislation is the go-to, quick-and-dirty 'solution' to the problem that will be presented.
The viable alternative path is pretty simple. Let events play out and the freemarket will correct itself.

Which put a bigger stop to music downloads, the DMCA or itunes? The market was slow and stubborn in providing consumers with the service they wanted at a reasonable price and once the market shifted sales returned.

Heck that was the original point to Hulu, you know before they realized that to fully support streaming online media they would have to axe the nelsons rating system and started backpedaling on streaming support. They've also been playing hard against Netflix as well. They don't just hate the pirates they hate the threat of streaming media in general and would rather we all stick with the arcaic and expensive cable system (does adult swim's streaming service still require verification of expanded basic cable access before they allow service?)

Then you have practices like device discrimination were they outright block Google/Apple TV systems and deny streaming service to your Xbox without upcharge because they believe that they should decide the size of the screen and how many people watch your entertainment? Its like Tacobell signs a contract with General motors and refuses traffic in the drivethrough from other cars but wants to sue because people open imitation service for free.

I'm sorry they do way too many dysfunctional things for their argument about massive profit loses to even be credible. In a downed economy they've remained highly profitable actually. Then we have that deal were the CEO of Viacom gives himself a 150% raise in the last year along with a year prior were Viacom was found to be hiring market groups to upload videos onto youtube for viacom to then sue over to prove how youtube steals their profits.


I could be wrong but something tells me if they just bit the bullet and started offering more equitable online services piracy would drop considerably and we could then have a more rational discussion on lowering the percentile from there.

No formal system is perfect and laws can't stop all crimes like what has been said earlier. You can only lower its success rate. As it stands I think most of the entertainment industry would rather undo most of the technological advancements we've gained and go back to the 90's were their profits were heavily padded out by people replacing their old VHS tapes with DVD. Youknow a trend that can never repeat because there's no reason to rebuy older films in blueray and DVD doesn't sit on the shelf degrading like VHS...
 
Jun 11, 2008
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I'm sorry I do have to laugh at this thread to a degree. You do know that the entertainment industry has tried to stop the manufacturing of VCRs and early MP3 devices due to piracy? That went swimmingly. This is just those industries trying to muscle in on an area they thing is losing them business and trying to bully people around simple as. You will never stop Piracy with a broad sword let alone a nuke.

Until people in charge understand that piracy will never stop and they can only make their product as high quality as possible then things will stay the same. As much as I dislike piracy it will always exist and you can only curtail it.

Pirates will always be ahead of people like this as they are proactive while these slow industries are reactive. Just look around you. You already have ways to bypass SOPA and the thing hasn't even passed yet.

On the question of internet needs laws no it doesn't need what is already has. What it needs is a different set of laws that are not abusable to but are custom made to work with the current medium. What they are trying to do is trying to put old law systems with a new medium and surprise it has gotten them fucking nowhere.

What needs to happen is for these people to take their head out of their anuses and see the internet is completely unique and great tool to be used. I mean right now they (music industry) are trying to sue a country (Ireland) for not enforcing copyright in their eyes. They are having bullied one of our ISPs (Eircom) into blocking sites like The Pirate Bay. Yes that site is haven for such things but it is the principle of it. They tried doing it to UPC (I think) and they basically told the industry to fuck off and I agree with them as there are better ways to do this.

Just because they cannot see how to protect their product in a good way(Eircom music hub) doesn't mean they can employ heavy handed tactics to get their way. How these people at the top stay at the top and get paid what they do is fucking beyond me.

Just because they cannot, no will not evolve to meet a new market and its different and unique demands for what it wants does not mean they can gimp it and force people elsewhere. Especially, since USA is supposed to be a Free Market economy and thus the government should be taking a laissez-faire stance on the situation.

Any way long story short new laws made for the internet by people who understand the internet that do not curtail its freedom good however, what they are trying to do and will try to do bad.
 

BehattedWanderer

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Jun 24, 2009
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There are laws in place. But, they're the early laws, and they're far from perfect. Consider the DMCA (The Digital Millennium Copyright Act, a body of international copyright law) as you would the Articles of Confederation. It's the primary, most powerful assemblage of law right now. But, it's flawed, and broken, and causes some problems. What we need is the Constitution to come along, and handle the problems while creating a great base on which to build when new changes are required (in this analogy, these would be the amendments). SOPA and PIPA are steps in the wrong direction. Too many individual liberties are destroyed, removed, or blocked from the individual that it breaks the system in the worst way. If your system is built on the concept of democracy, that every vote counts, then preventing entire regions or demographics from voting means your system doesn't work. Likewise, preventing and restricting access to what content may be seen and created in a form like the internet undermines the entire point of your idea.

Yes, there needs to be some regulation. But not like this. The DMCA was a good start, and we need to improve from there, not revert into total control. We were in a Huxleyan state before, given all the pleasures that we might not care about the problem. Moving us into an Orwellian state where all we see are the problems without any of the pleasures is not the proper response.
 

ACman

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Apr 21, 2011
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Thunderous Cacophony said:
I ask you, Escapists: Should the Internet have laws and some form of control? How should people and companies be allowed to protect their intellectual property?
By defending their intellectual property through the civil court.

Why the fuck is copyright violation a felony?!!! Patent infringement isn't a felony.

For some reason the MPAA and RIAA think that law enforcement agencies and every website owner everywhere should be doing what is supposed to be the copyright holder's responsibility.

READ THIS: Shamus young puts this better than I can.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14817#more-14817
 

ACman

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Apr 21, 2011
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?But we have to do SOMETHING about piracy!?

?We?? Actually, ?we? don?t. It?s your copyright, you defend it. I produce copyrighted works. If people started spreading around copies without paying me, I?d be frustrated and disappointed. But I?m not going to try to make it your problem. I can?t imagine even DREAMING about silencing an entire domain in an attempt to hide my bootleg work from pirates. That would be ridiculous, even if it could work.

If you can?t make money doing X, then you go out of business if you insist on doing X. If Pepsi stopped making money on vending machines because people routinely vandalized the machines and nobody ever called the cops because vandalism was socially acceptable, then Pepsi would have to find another business model. I?m sorry people are jerks, but your earning a living can?t come at the expense of the freedoms of everyone else.

I didn't write this. Credit for Shamus Young
 

NightHawk21

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Kopikatsu said:
seraphy said:
DMCA is abused by corporations all the time already. Just look at youtube. Videos that are clearly fair use are pulled down from there all the time for no good reason. These corporations are very rarely, if ever punished for their platant abuse of power.

And you want to give corporations more laws to abuse. No thanks.
Section 103 of SOPA says that anyone who abuses the system (IE brings down a site/video/whatever wrongly) will be thrown in jail on account of perjury and the site that got taken down will be paid restitution. Additionally, SOPA doesn't override fair use. SOPA only affects sites that are illegally making money off copyrighted material. Posting a youtube video or saying 'STAR WARS' in a forum isn't going to get you thrown in jail.

Check it yourself: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:1:./temp/~c112dvV5Hv:e29080:

I swear that people haven't actually read the bill and are just regurgitating what they hear from other people. FACT CHECKING IS IMPORTANT GUYS.

I also noticed how people raging on SOPA never bother to cite the bill. Well, there is the link to it. Read the bill and cite whatever you feel is worth citing.
Always funny how these "regulations" are in place but never acted upon when the person is rich and/or famous.

No, apart from rudimentary laws that completely violate human rights (see child porn, slavery, etc.) the internet should be almost lawless (ie. to the extent that it is right now).
 

implodinggoat

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Apr 3, 2009
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The internet is a great tool for free people across the world because it is not controlled by governments. Giving the state control over free expression on the internet is just another step towards tyranny.
 
Aug 1, 2010
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There ARE laws. However, every law is broken and on the internet, it is incredibly easy to break laws.

This is MY biggest problem with SOPA and PIPA; They wouldn't even stop piracy. Pirates are tech savvy people and anyone with the slightest knowledge of the web can bypass any law put in place. And with the proper proxies, they are completely undetectable.

So just like DRM, any new law would only harm the innocent people and do nothing to the guilty people.
 

Dogstile

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Silas13013 said:
Kopikatsu said:
seraphy said:
DMCA is abused by corporations all the time already. Just look at youtube. Videos that are clearly fair use are pulled down from there all the time for no good reason. These corporations are very rarely, if ever punished for their platant abuse of power.

And you want to give corporations more laws to abuse. No thanks.
Section 103 of SOPA says that anyone who abuses the system (IE brings down a site/video/whatever wrongly) will be thrown in jail on account of perjury and the site that got taken down will be paid restitution. Additionally, SOPA doesn't override fair use. SOPA only affects sites that are illegally making money off copyrighted material. Posting a youtube video or saying 'STAR WARS' in a forum isn't going to get you thrown in jail.

Check it yourself: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:1:./temp/~c112dvV5Hv:e29080:

I swear that people haven't actually read the bill and are just regurgitating what they hear from other people. FACT CHECKING IS IMPORTANT GUYS.

I also noticed how people raging on SOPA never bother to cite the bill. Well, there is the link to it. Read the bill and cite whatever you feel is worth citing.
SOPA does override fair use by not defining what a rouge website is, only requiring that a judge find that the site is rouge, which has already been made apparent that most in politics do not understand technology.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=lifebook&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=8170766506550055119&sa=X&ei=n0YXT87RBYbDgAff2LSgAw&ved=0CHgQ8wIwAw

Here is a good plain English version of the points of SOPA that people have a problem with. Asking people to read the law straight in its legal-jargon is unrealistic. Even educated people cannot be relied upon to interpret laws through all the muck, that's why lawyers exist in the first place. So saying "read the actual text" doesn't help your point and actually will confuse a lot of people, making the situation worse.
Psst, dude, you posted a link to a computer, I don't think you meant to do that ;)

OP:

But dude, of course it needs laws. It has them, the problem is companies who want to expand on those laws want to take courts pretty much out of it. Excuse me for a second while I let you tell me why that's a "brilliant" idea.
 

AngloDoom

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Aug 2, 2008
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It's pretty hard to enforce rules on something so 'free' as the internet, and taking away that freedom just makes it an internet library. The free exchange of all sorts of crap, unbridled by the outside world, is exactly what makes the internet so very magical.

If we want people to stop doing nasty things like pirating, it is up to us to change as a culture to not want to do such a thing.