The ism's in gaming

[mshcherbatskaya]

you know why we dont form groups and complain?

I'm sorry, but after the number of "People are always picking on us gamers!" complaints on this board, and really what is this board but the formation of a group, that doesn't earn anything from me but facepalms and pained laughter.

we have balls

strap on a pair and shut up!

OK, I'm strapped. Now bend over.

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

Feminism,Once a thing society as a whole needed is now just people fighting for useless causes.Everything in my country (America) is completely equal.So much to the fact corporations,businesses will lay people off and hire a different person for reasons of sex/race/religion to NOT seem racist/sexist/and intolerant of other peoples religions.So really to all people who are feminist please god don't lecture us on sexism,you can live your life without any real problems so shut the hell up.

,also don't judge me like your my English teacher it gets annoying and if i have misspelled anything I'm sorry I'm only a freshman or human if you have a ungodly high standard.

Heartless, I will not judge you for your writing. I will, however, judge you for both your lack of experience and your lack of respect. Since you are, as you say, "only a freshman," then how in the world can you claim to state with such authority that feminism is no longer needed? How dare you, a 15 year-old boy, tell a woman over 20 years your senior that sexism is over, that her life has no real problems related to sexism, and that she should shut the hell up? Because that's what you've just done. I have, throughout this thread and others, taken other people's arguments seriously and responded to them on the assumption that they were talking honestly about their feelings and experiences. Since you have, by your own admission, yet to master the English language and are still spending your days within the relative shelter of youth, pardon me if I point out that perhaps when it comes to social analysis and life experience, you are the one who should shut your mouth when the impulse to lecture me about feminism arises.

As far as arguing about whether a specific video game or cultural item of any sort is sexist, racist, classist, etc., I long ago decided that such arguments are ultimately futile. I remember reading a Susan Faludi article about the Aliens movies, where she did an analysis of how and why they were sexist. Faludi and I are both feminists, and we are pretty much both the same kind of feminist, but her read on the movies was almost the opposite of mine. These sorts of arguments are never productive as opportunities to prove whether X or Y is sexist. They are productive as opportunities to listen to why other people think they are sexist (to women or to men or both). I'm not interested in hashing out with the_root or LisaB whether Glamour magazine is more or less sexist because it is written by women. I am interested, though, in finding out why they think what they do.

Even you, Heartless. I'm interested in why you think sexism is over in the United States, despite what I just said. I would be prepared to listen respectfully to your opinions and experience if you were prepared to present them respectfully to me. This isn't the thread for that conversation, I think, but there you are, nevertheless.

May I bring up a point some men have with women in the workplace? You want equal pay and equal treatment you say. Well why the hell do you send us off when we talk to you like the guys?

 

[Alex_P]

It has nothing to do with the race, it is a game about zombies in a specific location that is trying to be somewhat realistic, you stupid egotistical jack-offs who think it's their personal job to make everyone so politically correct that we can't speak anymore and must communicate through sign language.

And yet I bet the Africans aren't going to be "realistic" at all, just like the people in the last game weren't.

-- Alex

 

[Bowstring]

you know why we dont form groups and complain?

I'm sorry, but after the number of "People are always picking on us gamers!" complaints on this board, and really what is this board but the formation of a group, that doesn't earn anything from me but facepalms and pained laughter.

we have balls

strap on a pair and shut up!

OK, I'm strapped. Now bend over.

My oh my. She's still got it. I like a woman with fire in her heart, and handcuffs in her bedroom door.

Alas; I tend to avoid debates involving excruciatingly long replies, and this is no exception. I just thought I'd read this, and state that yes, there's plenty of sexism in the gaming industry. Big boobs are used as a sales point. Women are sold off as clueless bints who need to be rescued constantly, playing to the almost-universal concept of weakness in women compared to men. The hero is usually male.

But I don't think game developers ever intended to degrade women. They're just trying to make a game that will sell. By conforming to certain stereotypes it may be easier to achieve that very task.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

May I bring up a point some men have with women in the workplace? You want equal pay and equal treatment you say. Well why the hell do you send us off when we talk to you like the guys?

Why do I do it? So far as I know, I don't do anything of the sort. As you can see by my above response, I either call people on it or feed it right back to them. There is no real answer to the question you just asked me, because I don't know what you said, who you said it to, what the nature of your workplace is, and the context in which it was said. One of the things I've given up as a feminist, which was easy to give up because I never really valued it anyway, was my supposed "right" to gallantry on the part of men around me. I won't look at you like you are a baby-eater because you hold the door open for me, though I wish I had a way of inoffensively communicating how unnecessary and silly it is to do so. I can only answer questions on how I live out my feminist principles. How some other woman who may or may not consider herself a feminist handles a given situation is not something I can speak to.

 

[Alex_P]

But I don't think game developers ever intended to degrade women. They're just trying to make a game that will sell. By conforming to certain stereotypes it may be easier to achieve that very task.

I think a lot of it is naivete, too. Not just doing stupid shit because they think it will make a game sell but doing stupid shit because they're not really thinking much about it at all.

-- Alex

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

You don't think a heavily muscled man appeals to women? Seriously?

Not when he's hairy like animal. Chicks are into Link and the FF guys when it comes to video game pr0n.

I beg to differ, with personal experience.

Okay, but what does that have to do with racism from one group of Asians towards another group of Asians that they invaded and conquered and committed atrocities against?

That they are Japanese...

So is Hiroyuki Sakai, but I don't see what Iron Chef has to do with anything I said.

Bigger picture, dear boy. We can't pre-judge prejudice by a group of people with differing cultures to us.

I don't think that was ever one of Lisa's points:

Look for the similarities rather than the differences. Lisa's point was unrealistic rolemodels. Barbie is.
My riposte was "Here's a male figure that has the same Superhero dimensions rather than normal dimensions: Therefore it is cross-gender rather than gender-specific"

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

May I bring up a point some men have with women in the workplace? You want equal pay and equal treatment you say. Well why the hell do you send us off when we talk to you like the guys?

Why do I do it? So far as I know, I don't do anything of the sort. As you can see by my above response, I either call people on it or feed it right back to them. There is no real answer to the question you just asked me, because I don't know what you said, who you said it to, what the nature of your workplace is, and the context in which it was said. One of the things I've given up as a feminist, which was easy to give up because I never really valued it anyway, was my supposed "right" to gallantry on the part of men around me. I won't look at you like you are a baby-eater because you hold the door open for me, though I wish I had a way of inoffensively communicating how unnecessary and silly it is to do so. I can only answer questions on how I live out my feminist principles. How some other woman who may or may not consider herself a feminist handles a given situation is not something I can speak to.

Still, Women come in so many various types its so hard for anyone to tell what a women is without a 30 minute talk.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Still, Women come in so many various types its so hard for anyone to tell what a women is without a 30 minute talk.

For Msch.

So why did you say she sent you off?

 

[X3heartless]

Feminism,Once a thing society as a whole needed is now just people fighting for useless causes.Everything in my country (America) is completely equal.So much to the fact corporations,businesses will lay people off and hire a different person for reasons of sex/race/religion to NOT seem racist/sexist/and intolerant of other peoples religions.So really to all people who are feminist please god don't lecture us on sexism,you can live your life without any real problems so shut the hell up.

,also don't judge me like your my English teacher it gets annoying and if i have misspelled anything I'm sorry I'm only a freshman or human if you have a ungodly high standard.

Heartless, I will not judge you for your writing. I will, however, judge you for both your lack of experience and your lack of respect. Since you are, as you say, "only a freshman," then how in the world can you claim to state with such authority that feminism is no longer needed? How dare you, a 15 year-old boy, tell a woman over 20 years your senior that sexism is over, that her life has no real problems related to sexism, and that she should shut the hell up? Because that's what you've just done. I have, throughout this thread and others, taken other people's arguments seriously and responded to them on the assumption that they were talking honestly about their feelings and experiences. Since you have, by your own admission, yet to master the English language and are still spending your days within the relative shelter of youth, pardon me if I point out that perhaps when it comes to social analysis and life experience, you are the one who should shut your mouth when the impulse to lecture me about feminism arises.

As far as arguing about whether a specific video game or cultural item of any sort is sexist, racist, classist, etc., I long ago decided that such arguments are ultimately futile. I remember reading a Susan Faludi article about the Aliens movies, where she did an analysis of how and why they were sexist. Faludi and I are both feminists, and we are pretty much both the same kind of feminist, but her read on the movies was almost the opposite of mine. These sorts of arguments are never productive as opportunities to prove whether X or Y is sexist. They are productive as opportunities to listen to why other people think they are sexist (to women or to men or both). I'm not interested in hashing out with the_root or LisaB whether Glamour magazine is more or less sexist because it is written by women. I am interested, though, in finding out why they think what they do.

Even you, Heartless. I'm interested in why you think sexism is over in the United States, despite what I just said. I would be prepared to listen respectfully to your opinions and experience if you were prepared to present them respectfully to me. This isn't the thread for that conversation, I think, but there you are, nevertheless.

O.k. i will tell you why feminism is over in the united states.
-Women can join the military (they don't do shit but can still join)
-they've had the right to vote,they can marry a guy dump him and get half his shit,get
-Women are seen as having an existence which is independent of the men they relate to. They are responsible for their own actions, can make their own choices and own their own "goods" (which covers everything from their bodies, their handbags to their houses)
- Girls are entitled to an education outside of the home. they can learn to read and write, to study maths and science, to learn about complex concepts - and this is seen as having value beyond attracting a husband.
- Daughters are no longer viewed mainly as bargaining tools for upwardly mobile families. The birth of daughters is now cherished as much as that of a son.
-Women have the right to find a job, to earn their own money, and thus not be dependent on a man for their well-being.
- Women can vote, express and exercise political opinions, and in most cases be taken just as seriously as a man when doing so.
- Women can choose if, when, and to whom they get married
- Women can choose if, when and how they give birth
- If a woman is raped, in most cases she is not automatically seen as somehow responsible.
- It is considered acceptable for men and women to have an active and close role in children's upbringing.
- Sexual Harrasment (by both sexes) isn't acceptable.

Now go to a African/middle eastern country and test these out i dare you

with love,heartless

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

My oh my. She's still got it. I like a woman with fire in her heart, and handcuffs in her bedroom door.

Alas; I tend to avoid debates involving excruciatingly long replies, and this is no exception. ...

But I don't think game developers ever intended to degrade women. They're just trying to make a game that will sell. By conforming to certain stereotypes it may be easier to achieve that very task.

No handcuffs--I kept losing the keys, and rope is a lot less likely to leave bruise-marks in the morning. But, hey, enough about my personal life...

I said this above, but it bears repeating: I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, "Ooh, I think I'm going to go out and oppress people today!" No one does that and no one has to do that in order for the -isms to keep on going. We inherited a lot of really screwed-up cultural stuff from the last 500 years and the only thing that is required for it to keep happening is for us to keep doing the same things we've always done and thinking the same ways we've always thought, without questioning any of it. There was actually a logic to the holding of doors for a lady 150 years ago, and that was because long skirts, especially with petticoats, tend to get stuck in doors otherwise. However, even though women no longer wear such skirts, but culturally we still act as though they do. We are still carrying on with an inherited standard of proper male behavior that makes no sense, and that is just one of many examples.

So I don't think developers are sitting over their keyboards, gleefully perpetuating the subordination of women as sex objects. They are just making games just like the games that came before them. That's not a sexist conspiracy, it's just inertia. Inertia and lazy design and, in an industry that supposedly lives on innovation, not terribly smart from a business perspective either.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

O.k. i will tell you why feminism is over in the united states.

(a whole bunch of minimum requirements for not treating women like cattle)

Now go to a African/middle eastern country and test these out i dare you

with love,heartless

Just because there are other places in the world where the lives of women are utterly devalued doesn't mean that we can't still do better here. By your own argument, you and your entire extended family should be more than happy to live in a one-bedrooom apartment with a working toilet down the hall because that is better than what 90% of the rest of the world gets.

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

My oh my. She's still got it. I like a woman with fire in her heart, and handcuffs in her bedroom door.

Alas; I tend to avoid debates involving excruciatingly long replies, and this is no exception. ...

But I don't think game developers ever intended to degrade women. They're just trying to make a game that will sell. By conforming to certain stereotypes it may be easier to achieve that very task.

No handcuffs--I kept losing the keys, and rope is a lot less likely to leave bruise-marks in the morning. But, hey, enough about my personal life...

I said this above, but it bears repeating: I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, "Ooh, I think I'm going to go out and oppress people today!" No one does that and no one has to do that in order for the -isms to keep on going. We inherited a lot of really screwed-up cultural stuff from the last 500 years and the only thing that is required for it to keep happening is for us to keep doing the same things we've always done and thinking the same ways we've always thought, without questioning any of it. There was actually a logic to the holding of doors for a lady 150 years ago, and that was because long skirts, especially with petticoats, tend to get stuck in doors otherwise. However, even though women no longer wear such skirts, but culturally we still act as though they do. We are still carrying on with an inherited standard of proper male behavior that makes no sense, and that is just one of many examples.

So I don't think developers are sitting over their keyboards, gleefully perpetuating the subordination of women as sex objects. They are just making games just like the games that came before them. That's not a sexist conspiracy, it's just inertia. Inertia and lazy design and, in an industry that supposedly lives on innovation, not terribly smart from a business perspective either.

So men trying to be nice to women is bad?

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

May I bring up a point some men have with women in the workplace? You want equal pay and equal treatment you say. Well why the hell do you send us off when we talk to you like the guys?

Why do I do it? So far as I know, I don't do anything of the sort. As you can see by my above response, I either call people on it or feed it right back to them. There is no real answer to the question you just asked me, because I don't know what you said, who you said it to, what the nature of your workplace is, and the context in which it was said. One of the things I've given up as a feminist, which was easy to give up because I never really valued it anyway, was my supposed "right" to gallantry on the part of men around me. I won't look at you like you are a baby-eater because you hold the door open for me, though I wish I had a way of inoffensively communicating how unnecessary and silly it is to do so. I can only answer questions on how I live out my feminist principles. How some other woman who may or may not consider herself a feminist handles a given situation is not something I can speak to.

Still, Women come in so many various types its so hard for anyone to tell what a women is without a 30 minute talk.

Yes, which makes them startling like most of the rest of the people in the world, I find.

 

[Bowstring]

My oh my. She's still got it. I like a woman with fire in her heart, and handcuffs in her bedroom door.

Alas; I tend to avoid debates involving excruciatingly long replies, and this is no exception. ...

But I don't think game developers ever intended to degrade women. They're just trying to make a game that will sell. By conforming to certain stereotypes it may be easier to achieve that very task.

No handcuffs--I kept losing the keys, and rope is a lot less likely to leave bruise-marks in the morning. But, hey, enough about my personal life...

I said this above, but it bears repeating: I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, "Ooh, I think I'm going to go out and oppress people today!" No one does that and no one has to do that in order for the -isms to keep on going. We inherited a lot of really screwed-up cultural stuff from the last 500 years and the only thing that is required for it to keep happening is for us to keep doing the same things we've always done and thinking the same ways we've always thought, without questioning any of it. There was actually a logic to the holding of doors for a lady 150 years ago, and that was because long skirts, especially with petticoats, tend to get stuck in doors otherwise. However, even though women no longer wear such skirts, but culturally we still act as though they do. We are still carrying on with an inherited standard of proper male behavior that makes no sense, and that is just one of many examples.

So I don't think developers are sitting over their keyboards, gleefully perpetuating the subordination of women as sex objects. They are just making games just like the games that came before them. That's not a sexist conspiracy, it's just inertia. Inertia and lazy design and, in an industry that supposedly lives on innovation, not terribly smart from a business perspective either.

So men trying to be nice to women is bad?

Talk about reading between the lines, Bulletinmybrain.

Edit: To the above, I was going to write something similar. I'd be pretty ashamed if you had me 'worked out' in under 30 minutes. I'd have to be pretty two dimensional, and/or be a Halo fan. You make women sound especially complicated Bullet, without realising we're all kind of the same species.

(Also: I'm sure you'd get quite a few burns using rope. There's kinky and then there's getting kidnapped.)

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

For Msch.

So why did you say she sent you off?

Sorry, ya lost me there...

So men trying to be nice to women is bad?

No, but if I was going to try and be nice to you, wouldn't it be better for me to do so in a way that made sense and provided an actual benefit to you?

(Also: I'm sure you'd get quite a few burns using rope. There's kinky and then there's getting kidnapped.)

It's just a matter of technique, but I probably shouldn't go into that here...

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

For Msch.

So why did you say she sent you off?

Sorry, ya lost me there...

Well, Bullet said that all women do this, and then said you couldn't differentiate them without 30 minutes chat.

 

[X3heartless]

O.k. i will tell you why feminism is over in the united states.

(a whole bunch of minimum requirements for not treating women like cattle)

Now go to a African/middle eastern country and test these out i dare you

with love,heartless

Just because there are other places in the world where the lives of women are utterly devalued doesn't mean that we can't still do better here. By your own argument, you and your entire extended family should be more than happy to live in a one-bedrooom apartment with a working toilet down the hall because that is better than what 90% of the rest of the world gets.

What im saying is be happy for what you do have because some people die everyday for nothing while Americans/Europeans complain about pointless shit.Try to have a more worldly view.

 

[deleted_by_strongbad]

I just want to get this right, if a game has swearing, blood, "disturbing imagery," etc and some politician wants to get it snipped for whatever reason we all band together and cry censorship...which we should. But then we turn around and decide to censor each other based on our own personal preferences and perceived offenses? If the KKK/black panthers want to make a game chock full o' racial supremacy or Alpha Male 3 and Final Fantasy: Girls Gone Wild get released then I say more power to em because that just means that the first amendment is still in order and I can say or think whatever I want.

Political Correctness is a farce designed to make society censor itself in the arrogant mentality that everyone else needs to be protected by you, because they are so weak and you can help them speak out against the "injustice" that YOU see. Before you know it we'll be burning our own constitution because what rights and freedoms that we still cling to are just too darned dangerous for our own good.

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

My oh my. She's still got it. I like a woman with fire in her heart, and handcuffs in her bedroom door.

Alas; I tend to avoid debates involving excruciatingly long replies, and this is no exception. ...

But I don't think game developers ever intended to degrade women. They're just trying to make a game that will sell. By conforming to certain stereotypes it may be easier to achieve that very task.

No handcuffs--I kept losing the keys, and rope is a lot less likely to leave bruise-marks in the morning. But, hey, enough about my personal life...

I said this above, but it bears repeating: I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, "Ooh, I think I'm going to go out and oppress people today!" No one does that and no one has to do that in order for the -isms to keep on going. We inherited a lot of really screwed-up cultural stuff from the last 500 years and the only thing that is required for it to keep happening is for us to keep doing the same things we've always done and thinking the same ways we've always thought, without questioning any of it. There was actually a logic to the holding of doors for a lady 150 years ago, and that was because long skirts, especially with petticoats, tend to get stuck in doors otherwise. However, even though women no longer wear such skirts, but culturally we still act as though they do. We are still carrying on with an inherited standard of proper male behavior that makes no sense, and that is just one of many examples.

So I don't think developers are sitting over their keyboards, gleefully perpetuating the subordination of women as sex objects. They are just making games just like the games that came before them. That's not a sexist conspiracy, it's just inertia. Inertia and lazy design and, in an industry that supposedly lives on innovation, not terribly smart from a business perspective either.

So men trying to be nice to women is bad?

Talk about reading between the lines, Bulletinmybrain.

Edit: To the above, I was going to write something similar. I'd be pretty ashamed if you had me 'worked out' in under 30 minutes. I'd have to be pretty two dimensional, and/or be a Halo fan. You make women sound especially complicated Bullet, without realising we're all kind of the same species.

(Also: I'm sure you'd get quite a few burns using rope. There's kinky and then there's getting kidnapped.)

I did not say there whole core I was specifying being able to tell the difference between her and the 4 billion other on the planet.