The ism's in gaming

[ReepNeep]

The 'chainmail bikini' has always rubbed me the wrong way as well. Still, every time I see an ad on television about 'Just for Men' hair coloring, diet supliments and exercise equipment with a totally ripped male spokesman, 'natural male enhancement' and other such things I think about how most women believe that men get no pressure from society about their body image.

Then I roll my eyes and say something snide.

Another thing to think about in regards to boys being squeezed out of public schools, in most universities girls outnumber boys by about 1.5-1. In post graduate environments boys outnumber girls by 4-1 weirdly enough.

I'm not a feminist or a misogynist. I'm just a guy who hates double standards and wishes that in games that strive for a realistic art style they would use approximately normal proportions for both male and female characters, and that both would dress sensibly. Is that really too much to ask?

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

The whole body image thing is subjective at most. I'm fine with how I am, in fact I'm improving myself over the holidays and will continue to, I aim to have a six pack by the end of the hols and I don't expect to sit on my laurels and hope I get it, I'm going to go out jogging, I'm going to continue Parour'ing, I'm going to continue doing weights and I'm going to get a six pack, the fat around my waist is proving the hardest to remove atm even though I have a really high metabolism but I can see the 6 pack struggling to get out and that just makes me work harder

If you're not truly happy with how you look than change it, no one else is going to do it for you, only you can. And before those who come in saying "Well if you were truly happy you wouldn't lose weight" I can say the same to you, enjoy being fat, out of shape and having a higher chance of dying younger, I'll take my healthier high road any day, I don't see it as me not being happy with my weight or body, I see it as improving on what I already have. As my friend has always told me "Aim to stretch your boundaries, not break them".

 

[Evilbunny]

I'm bothered by the portrayal of every male on TV as the amoral buffoon. But who going to give a shit about that?

I do.

Even if I were a mythical man-hating feminist, which I'm not or I wouldn't spend so much time on a 90% male site, I would say that the assumption that men are naturally amoral buffoons who are congenitally incapable of any sort of domestic activity lets men get away with acting like amoral buffoons. Now let's be clear about this. What I just typed is one possible critique and I do not agree with it.

My brand of feminism is the "sexism sucks for everybody, but it sucks for some people more than others" variety. I hate the way society seems to expect the worst from men, especially young men. Joeshie pointed out to me that boys are being squeezed out of the educational system, in part because most of the teachers in public schools are women. (I'm not entirely sold on the idea but I certainly think he has a point.) I'm not going to go into the pink-collar ghettoization of raising and educating the young and its apparent correspondance with shitty wages, but I would hold it up as an example of the fact that sexism sucks for everyone.

It's in the nature of videogames to be exaggerated. The characters are exaggerated, the situations are exaggerated, the weapons are exaggerated, and the tropes are exaggerated. This makes them an easy target and the arguments about them also become exaggerated. I think the fact that we are taking them too seriously (again, an idea I'm not sold on but I will concede the point) is in part a reflection of the fact that we don't take video games seriously enough. If we did, then the debate over this would be more serious and less of an ideological flamewar, because it wouldn't be dominated by the wingnuts who will flip out about everything. Other people would get involved, there would be serious examination of the subject. As it is, yeah, these arguments have a bad case of Teh Dumb and don't benefit anybody.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I agree with the critique of how women are portrayed in the media - by women as well as men, I just don't agree with the methods of argument, which I think are polarizing. Women are sexist to each other. But when a group that's largely male catering to a group that's largely male consistantly serves up a big, steaming piles of warped feminine ideals, that's a Bad Thing. It's also a Bad Thing in that these games reinforce warped masculine ideals. BUT, women are doing something about it, which is to say, consistantly criticizing this gaming bullshit and men, for the most part, aren't.

So I'll say to you what I say to women who ***** about sexism even as they gobble it up.

If it seriously bothers you as a man, do something about it or shut up.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[AlphaWolf13]

All people do is complain and whine. In any case, as for the "racist video games", I think that's rather the companies trying to appeal to who actually play the game. I'm pretty sure it's given the white boy's are the majority in gaming (I'm lumping Japanese and Asian in there too). Mostly, because of how society still is.

Hell, if Africa was a top-world Country we would probably have a lot of African based stars. It's just how it is, it's how the top dogs make money, and it won't change until some other group (be it girls, african americans, or whatever) are the majority or are equal video game players.

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

On the opposite side of the tracks, when Age of Conan was released there was a glitch that made all the women flat chested instead of buxom babes.

UNACCEPTABLE! THIS IS CONAN!

*patch brings us back to DD size*

 

[T360]

wow this is a hard thing to wiegh in on ( no pun intended ). as a person who has a lot of personal image problems its dishearting to hear people inslut heavey people like its not the same as insluting a persons color or sexual orention. I was bron heavy and have reminded that way all my life through noones fault ive tryed loseing weight im just a big guy but that dosent give anyone the right to insult me or ask me my weight.

I m not a person who belives you should judge a person by there looks but by the actions. I could really care less what a video game charcter looks like but i think i only really notice when its riddclous like a girl in the chainmail bikini or a guy in some super suit( like the guys in Gears). i think all ppl should be treated equally even in a made up world and dressed equally too. i d never throw a fit about someones look in a game though and if you are offened by something in a game theres always the choice of not buying / playing said game.

 

[Imperator_2]

Games are games. Fantasy. Leave em be.

 

[LisaB1138]

If it weren't just one person's idea of fantasy I might agree. But we all know that there won't be any video games with heroes who look and dress like the guys from Abercrombie and Fitch ads anytime soon.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

As if life wasn't bad enough, now we can't even enjoy our "hobby" of gaming, which helps us leave all our troubles behind without it being dissected and taken way more seriously than it should healthily be taken.
What next? Bedroom fantasies torn apart and analyzed? I can see it now:

"Well obviously since he has constant fantasies about wanting to be dominated by a woman it means he has some self confidence issues, he needs to be assertive and not want to be dominated, we must fix that, quickly, before it gets out of hand".

Seriously guys(and girl) leave it alone, I just play games to have fun, I don't read into sexist, racist, political moral views when I'm running over peds in GTAIV, I jusr wanna have fun, is that too much to ask? Or does everything have to be serious nowadays?

So what if your fantasy isn't the same as someone elses, no one is forcing you to play the game, find one to your own liking, just leave it be.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

What next? Bedroom fantasies torn apart and analyzed? I can see it now:

Ask Moseley about that...Oops, Godwin'd.

 

[The Wooster]

I love the 'Guys can't stereotype other guys' argument. It's bullshit of course and coupled with a healthy dose of 'you're just playing the victim so you can ignore the issue of female gender stereotypes' it scores a 8 out of 10 on my hackneyed argument-o-metre.

One problem I have with mshcherbatskaya's (*****, your username is obscenely annoying to type) argument is that any organized male response to male gender stereotypes is going to be attacked from pretty much all sides.
A commonly held belief is that men don't need advocacy groups because we're in the position of power (politically and socially) any group that claims to speak for the majority's interest often falls prey to guilt by association. I mean what's the antonym for feminism? Chauvinism? Misogyny? Neither terms are exactly loaded with positive connotations.

Plus you'd have a subsection of males who wouldn't take too kindly to the movement either and would respond in a pretty obvious way.

Ok. So porn gives young men a very distorted version of an ideal woman about as far from an actual woman as it?s possible to get without the use of electrodes and rubber skin. I agree. I watch a whole shitload of porn but I think I I understand that perhaps what I?m seeing isn?t exactly ?reality? per se (although I challenge you to find anything more horribly ?real? than 2 girls 1 cup) but plenty of guys seem to think it is and honestly expect the hot chick they met at the office dance to be perfectly happy about being anally ravaged by four guys then thrown out of a moving bus. I also agree that the images in pop magazines give young girls very bad examples to follow.
But it works both ways.
Unfortunately we club swinging males either don?t care or we?re too stupid to notice.
Now I?ll be honest, I?m closer to this than I am to the ruggedly handsome stars of my favourite action games but I?m god damn lightyears away from the guys in the ever popular Gears of War

Jesus. Just look at them.

Even if I was a perfectly healthy, slim young man rather than a gelatinous swamp creature there?s still no chance in hell of me ever looking even remotely like a character from Gears of War. Yeah, teenage girls going for waist measurements that sound more like wrist measurements is terrible but Jesus, Marcus Fenix?s forearms are thicker than his god damn head. Hell even if I loaded myself up on the juice WWF style and lifted a couple of Volkswagens a day I?d be nowhere close. I could have testicles the size of ball bearings and acne so bad It looked like I had the black death and I?d still look like Christian Bale in the Machinist standing next to one of these guys.
Unrealistic body shape? They don?t even have shapes. They?re just quivering masses of muscle. Living billboards for steroid abuse that whisper sweet nothings into young men?s ears in the universal language of testosterone. We can?t even to begin to imagine the effect this has on a developing teen?s mind because we?re too lazy to do any tests because we?re too busy chainsawing equally muscled monsters in half. Damn.

Me on GOW a few days ago.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

One problem I have with mshcherbatskaya's (*****, your username is obscenely annoying to type) argument is that any organized male response to male gender stereotypes is going to be attacked from pretty much all sides.

First of all, DO NOT call me "*****."

Second of all, do what everyone else does and either copy/paste or abbreviate. It's really not that difficult to find a workaround, and at least mine doesn't require lots of shift key. Yes, root, I'm looking at you.

As far as getting attacked from all sides, welcome to feminism. You think the ladies are all lined up to support me? You think I'm only getting shit from the male half of the population? Not by a long shot. Some of the most odiferous shit hurled at me comes from my own gender. Suck it up. The all-sides thing is the standard for activism on just about any issue.

A commonly held belief is that men don't need advocacy groups because we're in the position of power (politically and socially) any group that claims to speak for the majority's interest often falls prey to guilt by association. I mean what's the antonym for feminism? Chauvinism? Misogyny? Neither terms are exactly loaded with positive connotations.

Why does your idea of a men's movement have to be the opposite of the women's movement? If I agree that gender stereotypes categorically suck, and you agree that gender stereotypes categorically suck, how does that make us opposites?

Plus you'd have a subsection of males who wouldn't take too kindly to the movement either and would respond in a pretty obvious way.

Whereas the "Sex in the City" crowd just loooooooves me, not to mention women who subscribe to a very specific version of "family values.". And if "pretty obvious way" means responding violently, then you have either a very low opinion of your gender or have had some very bad experiences of other men. I am of the opinion that guys are not so thoughtlessly violent as stereotypes would have us believe.

'you're just playing the victim so you can ignore the issue of female gender stereotypes'

If you are seriously interested in changing the way people think about gender stereotypes, if you think about it, read about it, study it, discuss it, if you do challenge stereotypes of men in discussions with men and women, then obviously this does not apply to you.

However, if the only time that you talk about masculine stereotyping is as a counter to women trying to discuss sexism, then that is exactly what you are doing. You ARE using the very real issue of destructive masculine stereotypes to squirm out of a real examination of how sexism works, and in doing so, you are selling out other men.

I don't take well to "have it both ways" pseudo-feminists, either. Bullshit has no gender.

 

[The Wooster]

I don't want to start building a quote tower so I'll respond to your points in order.

First off the ***** thing was suppossed to be very tongue in cheek, doesn't really work when it's filtered through the phone system I suppose. That being said, your barb Wire impression only made it funnier.

Secondly. Hitting shift is easier than copying and pasting stuff.

Three. I think feminism, at least moderate feminism, enjoys a relatively positive media reception thanks to the big issues feminists have tackled and over thrown. Masculinism on the other hand is generally perceived as a 'nitpicking' movement challenging things most perceive (correctly or incorrectly) as relatively inconsequential. Then there's the very hard to do away with guilt by association issue.


As for the 'obvious ways' comments I didn't really mean violence, although I'm sure that would be an issue. It'd be more the accusations of homosexuality and slurs against our masculinity. And yes, I know feminists go through that shit all the time. I'm not trying to get into a 'who has it worst' pissing match with you. I'm just pointing out why we're not all raring to go protest outside of Epic's offices. In fact in your post you kind of inadvertandly touched on the problem guys have with advocacy, 'suck it up', cousin of 'toughen up' and distant relative of 'be a man', all parts of what guys are supposed to be.

All in all I mostly agree with you, not just because you're the most aggressive person in the discussion either, but I still think media stereotypes are pretty far down the list of problems we need to address.

 

[LewsTherin]

What I generally do when people drop the "teenage male" (they first one that comes to mind, what me BEING one and all) stereotype on me is just IGNORE THEM FOR THE SMALL MINDED FOOLS THAT THEY ARE. Seriously, people who rely mainly on stereotypes to deal with the world or propagate such nonsense for fun and profit aren't worth the air they breath. I've long since learned to give the middle finger to society and just keep walking. Figuratively speaking, of course.

I personally don't expect every woman I meet to have a six inch waistline and DD's, or whatever other generalization you choose to whine about, and I would like people NOT to give me and my friends sideways glances when we hang out because I CAN TELL YOU that we aren't vandalizing/doing drugs/stealing/conducting Satanic rituals or whatever you are sticking us for. Maybe a bit off topic, but disrespect is a two-way street. But only a complete fool would expect everyone to fulfill every generalization that applies to them.

To sum up, don't waste your time on them, it only makes things worse.

WHAT YOU FEEL IS THE COLD GRASP OF LOGIC!

 

[the monopoly guy]

Long post

QFT.

Why? Because you disagree with him? Because you just don't want to read that much? Please, explain.

 

[Alex_P]

Long post

QFT.

Why? Because you disagree with him? Because you just don't want to read that much? Please, explain.

QFT means "quoted for truth." It's just a "me too."

-- Alex

 

[the monopoly guy]

Long post

QFT.

Why? Because you disagree with him? Because you just don't want to read that much? Please, explain.

QFT means "quoted for truth." It's just a "me too."

-- Alex

Well now I feel like an ass, on a forum I used to post on it mean "quit fucking talking"
my condolences

 

[Alex_P]

Well now I feel like an ass, on a forum I used to post on it mean "quit fucking talking"
my condolences

Wow. That must've been one rough-and-tumble forum.

-- Alex

 

[Str8_Sober]

I think somethimg needs to be done about the tokenism and stereotyping of black people in games. Gears of War springs to mind. Also while i don't think the shooting black people in RE5 is racist, the fact that they made africa ( and "spain" in RE4) look like a shithole, is.
In CoD4, the only (i think) character to use a swear word was the walking stereotype, Sgt. Griggs. In MGS4 it's is Drebin who swore most frequently, and he sold GUNS for crying out loud.
I'd rather they didn't put black people in games rather than stereotyping the colour out of them.