The ism's in gaming

[Elhueno]

Okay. This is my first post here and most of this has been already discussed. I decided to ask one of my female friends who is also a gamer her opinions on this matter.

This is what she said:

i think its slowly decreasing
and considering most games are designed for and by males
females are unlikely to play main roles
and thats jus the way things are
sure its not fair
but the gamin industry is dominated by males so who can blame em?

This i Totally agree with. Until we get a 50/50 split of game developers, 3D artist's, Conceptual Artists and anything else to do with game characters or whatever, there will always be some form of stereotype.

One of the most offensive stereotype's that i find in todays world is the portrayal of the "Nerds". I quite happily state that i am a nerd. but not the kind they tend to put on T.V or in games. That is the stereotypical view of nerds. And just from my experiences i can see how people may be offended by other stereotypes such as fat people or females being there for little more than something nice to look at.

However after mentioning the fat stereotype, I ask all those people out there who are "fat", why are you offended by this and decide to sit at home on your computer typing a rant on some forum, instead of exercising.

Any how i realise this is a slightly long post But i felt i needed to post my opinion.

~Elhueno

 

[J'aen]

I agree with most points, but I feel the need to say we shouldn't try to force a 50/50 gender split.

 

[Elhueno]

The thing is though that how can we "force" a gender split? We cant force women to take game design courses or what have you. And another kind of stereotype is also preventing this and that is the one i mentioned of nerds. What kinda girl wants to be around "nerds" all day? its a bit of a shallow point but i think you will understand my meaning.

 

[J'aen]

What I meant by "force" is hire women who aren't good enough and ignore men who are, so that the genders will be split equally. I've heard of similar things happening in other industries to make up quotas.

 

[Brett Alex]

The technological equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing, "la la la la la, I can't hear you!"
This thread is trying to analyse the problem, saying that is like saying, "He shouldn't have drunk so much," AFTER he's nearly dead in hospital.
We can always just not play the game. But I think most of the people in this thread have played the game. Which really makes that post pointless.

True, but I'm pretty sure by playing most of these games you probably already know a bit about them, meaning your likely to have at least an inkling if your gonna be offended by them. So you can solve this problem by acting in a way that will actually make them pay attention, by not throwing your money at them. If a game is highly profitable then it takes an awful lot of controversy for them to ever decide to cancel it. In fact, I imagine all the hoopla over Fat Princess will only increase sales. If you don't like something or think its inappropriate game (and I mean in a minor way, if its offensive like Custer's Revenge then its fair enough to get in an uproar) don't buy it, don't try and tell everyone how bad it is, your not gonna change anything besides unnecessarily stressing yourself.

 

[Regga_Overallt]

All ideals change with time. If you ever get offended by some stereotype in game then it is because your take yourself way too seriously.

 

[LisaB1138]

Laying on the stereotypes a bit thick, aren't we? Lisa's talking about a woman who can "kick butt, take names, and save the world" without being presented as a sex object, and you're launching into a little spiel about why romantic comedies wouldn't make for good games.

Women can have badass power fantasies dripping with sex and violence, too.

Thank you.

And it's not just the main characters I'm speaking of. I was given Ninja Gaiden as my Mother's Day gift a few years back. My son knew I loved the Onimusha series and thought I might enjoy that game too. Geez, where does it say on the box this game is also to be used for fullfilling bondage fantasies? In what universe should women be trivialized like this? http://www.destructoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/hubbahubba.jpg

You don't need women developers to notice the over-sexualization that goes on in games. Smart, powerful, strong women are constantly dressed in stupid outfits that require Extraordinary Feats of Programming to stay in place. These outfits are not an accident; these are conscious decisions made by designers to put women into outfits scream---what was the filename to the picture I link to titled above?---ah yes: "hubbahubba". Something also tells me that if there were a female developer who tried to curtail the oversexualiztion, she would hear some of the comments that I hear when this topic comes up: "suck it up," "get over it." And she would cave probably, because she needs her job and because ". . . we fight to please the brothers. We think their acceptance is how we really win. They're happy we're climbing over each other to beg the club of boys to let us in."

 

[Woe Is You]

The young men is see around me just seem really discouraged and unhappy and disengaged and perpetually bored.

I've always thought this is a result of being told how awesome they are day in and day out and then when they do fail at something, they just end up not taking it so well.

Rather that than "being discouraged and expected the worst of".

 

[LisaB1138]

All ideals change with time. If you ever get offended by some stereotype in game then it is because your take yourself way too seriously.

Or maybe you're just a marshmallow who's brain hurts if the shiny lights stop. It could go either way. *shrugs*

 

[Blayze]

What I meant by "force" is hire women who aren't good enough and ignore men who are, so that the genders will be split equally. I've heard of similar things happening in other industries to make up quotas.

So have I. Equality isn't a word business should care about. Efficiency is.

I've always thought this is a result of being told how awesome they are day in and day out and then when they do fail at something, they just end up not taking it so well.

Pfft. In today's society, you could hold up a placard that said "All men are rapists" and most people wouldn't bat an eyelid. Youth is equated with crime. We're assumed to have all the breaks, but we don't.

 

[wgreer25]

You don't see the difference, do you? Women's magazines are for women by women. Therefore, yes, we take full responsibility for them. Unrealistic standard of beauty? Maybe, but hey, it can't hurt to try. And some are actually quite self-aware of this double-standard we live with. One reason I like Allure is because it's very in your face obvious about "this is what we do to ourselves."

Games, on the other hand, are made by men. Oh, I'm sure there's the odd female working for a developer, but when was the last time you saw an article featuring a female game designer that didn't have to do with the fact she was a female?

You are correct in that stereotypes develop from society, but there's such a thing as reinforcement of negative stereotypes, you know? As a woman and a mother of 3 boys who spend their free time playing games, I don't think it's too much to ask for more than a few women characters who wear something that at least appears marginally functional.

There are some examples of chacters who can be female and not oversexed. They tend to be user created however. I will cite Mass Effect and Oblivion. The RPG is the place where you character can better suit what you think your ass kicking heroine should look like. As for all the other oversexed characters, in my opinion, they are guilty of the same thing that women's magazines are guilty of... sex sells. I don't think VG are any more guilty of this than your typical women's magazine or Hollywood in general (that thinks if you are over 130 pounds you are a lard ass). But I will also blame partents a little too. The trendy thing to do in the US is when you turn 16, get a boob job. It is fueled by Hollywood and the media, but the parrents are allowing it and paying for it. It seems like more pass-the-buck on responsibility, "it's not my fault there are stereotypes". Like blaming vidoe games for voilence. You can teach your children the right from the wrong. Too many parents nowadays just don't get involved in their kids lifes and want to pass the blame elsewhere when it is really their fault.

I am not sugesting anyone on the Escapist is that way, I am just making a statement. Not trying to offend anyone.

 

[LewsTherin]

What I meant by "force" is hire women who aren't good enough and ignore men who are, so that the genders will be split equally. I've heard of similar things happening in other industries to make up quotas.

The world is a sad, cruel place my friend..

An example.

I am entering a building, and I notice a group a group of women walking behind me and , naturally, I step out the way and hold the door. They look at me like I just ate their firstborn. BEING POLITE IS NOT BEING CONDESCENDING!

It is very depressing to me that people care so very much what other people think, or take things out of context and then blow them out of proportion.

While this may seem off topic, there is a point, being that going so zealously against stereotyping, real or perceived, just throws more wood on the fire. I personaly don't give a flying shit if a guy in a sitcom is portrayed as completely useless to society, because that is a fictional character and, I know that I am not such a twit, so I happily go on with my life.

To the feminists posting, I completely agree with your standpoint that women ARE being itemized and that is wrong, but it is coded into the minds of the male half of the species to think of women sexually. This boys and girls is how babies are made.If some guys can't control themselves, DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME ON THEM.

Stupidity recognizes neither race, nor sex, nor age, nor anything else and as long as there are people, some will be pricks/jerks/asshats.

QED

This is LewsTherin, urging humanity to kill the P.C. machine and salt the ground it stood on

 

[Alex_P]

As for all the other oversexed characters, in my opinion, they are guilty of the same thing that women's magazines are guilty of... sex sells.

Sex-columnist and blogger Violet Blue recently posted an article (that I can't really link to from here) talking about how we say "sex sells" but it's not really sex, it's some kind of weird bastard half-sex. Wink-wink, tease-tease, &c. I think that's part of the problem: "sex sells" marketing means appealing to a narrow set of tropes, most of which involve taking an everyday scene and heaping sexual objectification onto it.

-- Alex

 

[LisaB1138]

Women's magazines are not based on "Sex sells." They are guilty of defining standards of beauty for women. However, again, it is women doing the defining. No where on the pages of Glamour, Vogue, or Allure do I see fashion articles touting to-the-navel-cleavage as the best path to achieving your professional goals. There are no "do's and don'ts" sections stating that to successfully avenge one's family, you have to leave your a$$ exposed or which "token armor" will best protect that right shoulder. You can argue that making oneself beautiful is a way to appeal to the opposite sex and attract a love interest and eventually have sex, but you cannot argue that a male game designer deciding Ivy's outfit was appropriate for a fight is the same as an interview with a celebrity hair stylist on how to get your hair really straight---even if straightening your hair makes you a slave to fashion. Now, if Glamour started telling women to wear their bikinis to work to get a promotion, you might have something.

I absolutely agree we've become too body conscious, and that there's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm going to continue to have issues with women in video games being dressed in sexually provocative outfits that make the characters look as if as soon as they're done killing the final boss, they're off to their second job at the tittie bar to lap dance for tips.

Unless of course, a sexually provocative outfit is germane to the story and character. *imagines rash of games featuring pole dancers and prostitutes to shut LisaB1138 up*

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

However, again, it is women doing the defining.

Oh that makes it's alright then.

*headdesk*

Ladies and Gentlemen, for your approval : Image 1 of Googlesearch Image+ Cosmopolitan

Women's magazines are not based on "Sex sells."

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

Wow Katherine Heigl is surprisingly hot in that picture o.0
The power of Photoshop is amazing, I need to get THAT good, and quick.
She sure is "defined" though, seems the women do a better job than us at sexing up models, but hey, I'm not complaining

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Having taken courses on literary criticism I'm aware that you can imprint almost any ism onto any intellectual product. Its stupid and pointless to read too much into something, if there are female characters in a game, hardcore feminists will look for something to offend them, if there is a black badguy, people will look for racist overtones. If you look for these things, you'll find them because you want to, rarely are they actively present.

 

[UntrodTripod]

If the way women are portrayed in games is simply a reflection of how the men who make games view women in general, isn't the logical end of all this that we need to change the person looking in the mirror, not just polish the glass? Just a thought.

You see, I'm a pretty smart guy. I go to a *very* liberal college. I'm very well-read about feminism, and I happen to agree with most of the feminist philosophy I have read, and I play a lot of games. I guess that makes me a little bit of a cock for pointing that out at the beginning here, but bear with me on this. Though it is true that I tend to avoid the "insipid boom-fests" and games with a similar philosophy of "kill everything that isn't you", I'm not a stranger by any means to the ugly face of video gaming. But I have to say, when I hear people talk about the fact that women in video games show a lot of cleavage, or that the women characters are two-dimensional (idiocy x sex appeal), I can't help but feel that their outrage is misplaced. Were we talking about, say, Custer's Revenge, you might have a valid point. However, when you consider that there are vast vistas of multimedia empire which make huge amounts of revenue and notoriety around the objectification of women, such as MTV (Tila Tequila? seriously?) and the rap/hip-hop culture, to name only two, I can only laugh uncomfortably that segments of the feminist population get upset about Grand Theft Auto, and Fat Princess. My response to feminists and other such activists who take time and money out of their cause to attack video games is that maybe you've missed the point of your movement. As I said in the beginning, games are a reflection, and you point out in many of your critiques of the medium that games are fantasy. If you just think about the language YOU'VE chosen you use here just a little harder, you'll realize that trying to change fantasy is folly. The only thing you can do to change fantasy is to change the reality that shapes it. And if you don't understand that, then you're too dumb to tell me what fucking pronouns to use.

This is a little off the subject, but I think that this is a good synecdoche for what is wrong with current feminist trends (which is part of what causes them to aim their vitriol at video games instead of actual problems):
When Bill Clinton was being impeached, I was in elementary school. Being the impressionable young'in that I was, I was learning a lot about human relationships from the actions which surrounded something that my nation's president had done. Andrea Dworkin lived out of the country at the time, and offered the following suggestion as to how the whole issue of the impeachment should work out: "Hillary should shoot Bill and be pardoned by President Gore." You see, the original feminists were disgusted that Hillary just allowed her husband to do that and stayed with him throughout his presidency after all of his much-publicized indiscretions. And now, modern feminists are all about some Hillary, despite the fact that she cared more about marital stability and public appearances than doing what was good for her, as a woman. This is the same generation and mindset which rabidly attacks video games, and I for one, am not surprised in the least.

By the way, Lews, I feel you on the holding the door thing. I've been yelled at more than once for that simple act of politeness.

 

[UntrodTripod]

By the way, Lisa, you should probably read Female Chauvanist Pigs, by Ariel Levy.

Seriously, go read it, you might actually learn something.

 

[LisaB1138]

Cosmopolitan is not indicative of women's fashion magazines. I almost pointed out that exception in my post, because Cosmo is very sex oriented. It's a lone beacon of "hey, it's OK to have sex and not be shy or ashamed about it." I tend to think it goes overboard because the articles sort of assume you're sleeping with every guy you think about sleeping with, but it's a more honest portrayal of sex than romance novels. Again, however, it's women empowering women with sex, not men saying "wear high heels when you cook dinner, hon."

Nice try, but I've been a woman for a pretty long time, and looked at a lot of magazines. *winks*

BTW, I thought this story pertinent. http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=9030438&ch=4226715&src=news