The ism's in gaming

[mshcherbatskaya]

The young men is see around me just seem really discouraged and unhappy and disengaged and perpetually bored.

I've always thought this is a result of being told how awesome they are day in and day out and then when they do fail at something, they just end up not taking it so well.

Rather that than "being discouraged and expected the worst of".

That's another interpretation. It doesn't stop me worrying though, especially since I don't see the same things happening with teenage girls who have also had a bunch of "self-esteem" blown up their asses too.

I value self-worth, but I hate self-esteem. You earn the first, you get tit-fed the second.

 

[J'aen]

I think i can speak for everyone that a game made entirely around a nerd of a fatty would never sell.

Yeah, because there's still loads of copies of Half-Life on the shelf.

And Mario.

*headdesk*

Yeah, because Gordon Freeman isn't pretty damn skinny, is he? Mario, sure, he's pretty tubby, but don't call the One Free Man fat.

No......but they do call him a nerd....being a Graduate of MIT in Quantum Physics...

You specifically said "fatty". Gordon Freeman is not fat. That was my point.

Look VERY closely at what I said...And then find where I said that.

I never objected to "nerd", did I?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I value self-worth, but I hate self-esteem. You earn the first, you get tit-fed the second.

LMAO *applause*

And that avatar completely confuses me.

I never objected to "nerd", did I?

I think i can speak for everyone that a game made entirely around a nerd

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

You don't see the difference, do you? Women's magazines are for women by women.

I don't believe that the bad social consequences of messages care about the gender of the person who created the message.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Msch. there's one of your feminist nightmares loose in the area. Can you deal with her as it seems as if because I'm a man, I can't argue with her.

And seriously, "How to keep a guy totally turned on", totally fails at being an honest portrayal and totally doesn't work.

Sort of like the Spice Girls "EMPOWERING" women to wear boob-tubes instead of the "EVIL MEN" allowing them to wear boob-tubes.

They still look like whores..., sorry... Walking Hospitality + Oral Recreation Enthusiast Salespersons.

I wouldn't call her one of my nightmares - I actually agree with her in a lot of what she's said. The reason I haven't really answered her (yet, maybe) is that I really am not in the mood to be the mud-wrestling entertainment for the rest of the thread, which I strongly suspect it would quickly become.

I can do a close reading of her posts, which honestly, I haven't done yet because I'm RPing like a crazed RPing thing and hey, I have my priorities, right? There's been a lot of egregious BS coming from the guys too, and I haven't addressed all of that either.

I'm not ignoring her, I'm just trying to stick to my own point, which is that guys should really look into feminism, and I do not mean getting into fights with feminists on forums, and see where they might find allies in getting out from under masculine stereotypes if they are honest about feeling oppressed. I would be happy to point them at some books if they care enough to actually do some reading.

By the way, the use of italics does not indicate textual rage. I've noticed people tend to tl;dr a lot of this stuff and I want certain points to stand out.

EDIT: My new avatar is a very blurry icon of Haruko from Fooly Cooly that did not survive reduction to 75x75. The "INSANE" is actually "FUCKING INSANE" in the original, but I didn't think the mods would appreciate me larding their pages with profanity when their majority demographic is under-age.

 

[J'aen]

Oh, was that "of" meant to be "or"? I'm sorry, I reacted to the post as if it were written by someone who speaks English competently.

 

[Yechezkel]

That's another interpretation. It doesn't stop me worrying though, especially since I don't see the same things happening with teenage girls who have also had a bunch of "self-esteem" blown up their asses too.

I value self-worth, but I hate self-esteem. You earn the first, you get tit-fed the second.

It does seem that a lot of things here are being associated with "men" and "women" that are better associated with things like "the school system." Students these days are shot up with so much flattery that when they enter the real world, they break down in a spectacular manner that's either hilarious or tragic depending on how much of a cynic you are.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

That's another interpretation. It doesn't stop me worrying though, especially since I don't see the same things happening with teenage girls who have also had a bunch of "self-esteem" blown up their asses too.

I value self-worth, but I hate self-esteem. You earn the first, you get tit-fed the second.

It does seem that a lot of things here are being associated with "men" and "women" that are better associated with things like "the school system." Students these days are shot up with so much flattery that when they enter the real world, they break down in a spectacular manner that's either hilarious or tragic depending on how much of a cynic you are.

Right, but I was referring back to my conversation with Joeshie about specific concerns about boys in the school system.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

If anyone is interested in a feminist's take on the cultural and personal effect of warped masculine image, they might want to check out "Stiffed" by Susan Faludi.

 

[Yechezkel]

That's another interpretation. It doesn't stop me worrying though, especially since I don't see the same things happening with teenage girls who have also had a bunch of "self-esteem" blown up their asses too.

I value self-worth, but I hate self-esteem. You earn the first, you get tit-fed the second.

It does seem that a lot of things here are being associated with "men" and "women" that are better associated with things like "the school system." Students these days are shot up with so much flattery that when they enter the real world, they break down in a spectacular manner that's either hilarious or tragic depending on how much of a cynic you are.

Right, but I was referring back to my conversation with Joeshie about specific concerns about boys in the school system.

I know. I'm simply pointing out that it seems a lot of behaviours in this thread are being labelled as exclusive to men or exclusive to women when they are not. This was meant to expand upon your saying that both young men and young women are injected with self-esteem by the school system, not just one or the other.

 

[Woe Is You]

I'm not ignoring her, I'm just trying to stick to my own point, which is that guys should really look into feminism, and I do not mean getting into fights with feminists on forums, and see where they might find allies in getting out from under masculine stereotypes if they are honest about feeling oppressed.

I'm wasn't feeling oppressed then, but the last time I tried to be discuss feminism with feminists (asked some genuine questions, I thought), I ended up being screamed out for telling them that I wasn't quite sold on some of their opinions. I also remember being told that what they were on about had nothing to do with me.

A couple experiences like those and you have your reason why I'm usually hesitant to discuss any ism actually. It always gets into personal attacks.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

i find it odd that any person would think that only women are the victims of sexist socialization. gender identity itself is a contrived construct based almost entirely on social peer pressure and borderline superstitions.

it all starts with boys in blue and girls in pink.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

I just keep my head down and get on with things, wayyyyyy too much depressive stuff to be thinking about, it's better spent doing something more productive.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Oh, was that "of" meant to be "or"? I'm sorry, I reacted to the post as if it were written by someone who speaks English competently.

How long have you been here?

i find it odd that any person would think that only women are the victims of sexist socialization. gender identity itself is a contrived construct based almost entirely on social peer pressure and borderline superstitions.

Well, given that I've had to remove my locker picture of Maria Sharapova(fully clothed) for being sexist, but one of the women has a cup that says "Two men are never enough"...you sort of think there should be at least visible lines of equality.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I'm not ignoring her, I'm just trying to stick to my own point, which is that guys should really look into feminism, and I do not mean getting into fights with feminists on forums, and see where they might find allies in getting out from under masculine stereotypes if they are honest about feeling oppressed.

I'm wasn't feeling oppressed then, but the last time I tried to be discuss feminism with feminists (asked some genuine questions, I thought), I ended up being screamed out for telling them that I wasn't quite sold on some of their opinions. I also remember being told that what they were on about had nothing to do with me.

A couple experiences like those and you have your reason why I'm usually hesitant to discuss any ism actually. It always gets into personal attacks.

I won't disagree with you on that. I've been one of the screamers, to be honest. To find out that all the shit you've been dealing with isn't just you, isn't just your imagination, is really rage-inducing at first. Especially if you've been sexually assaulted. I'm leery of the one-in-three statistic that gets thrown around, but it does reflect my actual experience, and several of the women I know have been raped by more than one person, or as children and then again as adults. Which doesn't make their anger productive, but maybe it makes it a little more understandable to you, how they can be so filled with anger and to some degree hate and then turn around and tell you it doesn't have anything to do with you personally.

My back is totally jacked up, and when I'm not taking pain-relievers I can be ununpleasant. If I get really grouchy and snappish when my back hurts so bad, imagine how I would be when my heart hurts even worse. Honestly, I'm tearing up a little right now just remembering it. Anger masks grief and they are often grieving. I'm not saying that this is OK, I'm saying it is human nature and human nature is frequently not OK.

The other thing that sometimes happens is that a woman is working really hard to pick up all this theory and information and some guy walks up and wants it all handed to him on a plate, and when they don't have the time, energy, or desire to do someone else's work for them, they get accused of not wanting anyone to understand. I'm not saying that you do it, I'm saying that it happened to me and it happens to others, and it's galling as hell.

So, if you really want to know a bit about feminism and are willing to make an investment of time and energy, just like she has, then try this approach. "I don't really understand X about feminism. Have you read anything that talks about it, like an article or a paper or something that I could read?" It's really hard to take offense at that.

 

[LisaB1138]

Where's the fetus gonna gestate?

You've got an empty shoebox lying around don't you?

I've spent a lot of time in dentists waiting rooms.

Glamour
Red Book
Elle Magazine
Essence

Need I go on?

Only if you can provide the article that advises women to wear their bikinis to work to succeed. Until then, all you've got are lipstick ads, fall fashion layouts and "Can This Marriage Be Saved?" Again, their influence is not what's dressing Rachel from Ninja Gaiden or Ivy from Soul Caliber IV. Even though I'm sure that game developers visit the dentist, I'm also sure that no outfits like that have ever graced their pages. So this leap of logic that somehow a game developer plopped a Glamour magazine down next to his texture artist and said "I want her to wear that!" fails.

I would never argue that game characters shouldn't be fantastic. Why shouldn't they be beautiful, handsome, strong, smart? But I do have to take issue with outfits that serve no purpose but to sexually titillate, outfits that would break at the first strain or ones that no amount of Hollywood fashion tape would keep in place when the action started. Those outfits make the female characters look foolish, as if they didn't understand gravity or the laws of motion.

Apologies for being a nightmare.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

But I do have to take issue with outfits that serve no purpose but to sexually titillate, outfits that would break at the first strain or ones that no amount of Hollywood fashion tape would keep in place when the action started. Those outfits make the female characters look foolish, as if they didn't understand gravity or the laws of motion.

Apologies for being a nightmare.

and what about the bare chested men in a sword fight? or how about the slave-ish s&m male representation of Voldo? i don't hear you complaining about those inpractical masculine representations.

i appreciate that you point a critical eye at examining the intentions of these design aesthetics but i find it sexist and convenient that you only have concern over exploitive representations of women.

 

[jdguy]

wow... Four pages on my first topic... go me. Well since I don't want to leave every one thinking I am some type of ass that swoops in starts a ruckus then leaves (though that is sort of what my job in real life will be after I graduate) I'll clarify some points that I think people are missing.

Most sexism/racism/bad sterotypes comes from not hate but ease/fear. Lets take sexism for example. Most sexist men are actually afraid that women will come in and ruin everything. This can be seen the hardest in 1920's (America). The argument is a stupid one where men assume that if women have equal rights then some how men will loose rights. Normally this is done by people who are cowards, afraid of their own worth and image that they oppress others. This can be seen in its worst in the Middle East.

Now this is not to say that women don't shoot themselves in the foot. It is a very hpyocritical argument to demand men treat women with respect and don't try and push an unrealistic body image on them if women themselves gladly love the said image (Cosmo). Also when women do become game designers they tend to play into another sterotype (I'll use Heavenly Swords for instance though I could also use fat princess), where the women is a dismorphic sexual image. This confuses men to all hell.

Also let us not forget that equality needs to be just that. So often in our culture (our being the gaming/geek culture), do bad ass women become more parodies of themselves than actual people. The best (if not worst) example of this would be the Resident Evil movies (yes I know they suck but since their popular enough I will use them). The super girl is surrounded by pathetic side kicks who either serve to show just how bad ass she is, or how pathetic they are. The fear that sexist men and even non sexist men have about ass kicking female characters is that thier will stop being ass kicking male characters as well.

What I think the gaming would needs is to go back in time a few years and look at the most liberal two games of the ps-1 era. Resident Evil 1 and 2. Their are kick ass male leads (well I don't know that much about Leon but he tries) as well as realistic and kick ass female leads, who don't dress like street walkers. They also are human needing help from others (Chris needing resucing by Rebecca and Jill by Berry. While in two Leon gets help from Ada while Claire actually ends up being a savior). These types of characters are what I want to see in my games. Strong, realistic, and most of all not sterotypical.

I know people now harp about Resident Evil having black people in Africa but hopefully they will try and go back to their old character style.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Most sexism/racism/bad sterotypes comes from not hate but ease/fear. Lets take sexism for example. Most sexist men are actually afraid that women will come in and ruin everything. Much like in the 1920's. The argument is a stupid one where men assume that if women have equal rights then some how men will loose rights. Normally this is done by people who are cowards, afraid of their own worth and image that they oppress others. This can be seen in its worst in the Middle East.

it's funny you say that. have you heard of this pro-man movement lately that's all the rage with middle aged cigar smoking men? it's that whole Tom Lycus crowd. these supposed "men" take seminars and classes on how to be "men". personally, i couldn't think of anything more emasculating.

like Maxim magazine, it's the male equivalent of Redbook. when did "men" start caving into and buying into artificial masculinated stereotypes? i bet more men shave their chests now then they ever did before.

it's the same problem that women face and it's all a big ball of sad.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

Most sexism/racism/bad sterotypes comes from not hate but ease/fear. Lets take sexism for example. Most sexist men are actually afraid that women will come in and ruin everything. Much like in the 1920's. The argument is a stupid one where men assume that if women have equal rights then some how men will loose rights. Normally this is done by people who are cowards, afraid of their own worth and image that they oppress others. This can be seen in its worst in the Middle East.

It's alot like kids today carrying knifes because they want "respect" or want to be seen as "cool" by their peers, it's really because they're afraid of other people with knives, it's a neverending circle, fear breeds fear amongst people unfortunately. Never mind that the knife is more than likely to end up in the torso of it's wielder they are more afraid that someone else is going to stick them first so they "tool" up in hopes of sticking "that guy/girl" first, and this is why you have these purely stupid murders for fucking retarded reasons. The same fear applies to religion, but that's a different story, I feel I'll be blue in the face once I'm done telling it, better I go yell in an empty sports hall, at least I'll get more positive feedback from there than from here.