The ism's in gaming

[mark_n_b]

Fat Princess, so as everyone knows, was not "made by a woman". The lead character artist was a woman, hardly the equivalent of Jade Raymond on Assassin's Creed.

On the Fat Princess front, I'm surprised no one thought it would get a lot of flak. Frankly that kind of title is just asking for a GTA like response. And let's be honest, how many more thousands of sales will this controversy result in.

And a month from now, who's going to be talking about the controversy. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if there was a huge discussion of the marketing staff on risk vs. benefit analysis.

I am put off by Fat Princess a little bit by the fact that if this game were called "Chubby Prince" no one would care. But all the points surrounding the controversy are valid, women are perceived differently from men.

Sexism is a much larger issue in gaming than racism, a lot of that has to do with the overall maturity of the industry as well as the quality of talent (better writers mean better female characters). I am always taking the lead when it comes to arguing beauty and sexiness of game titles, it is part of having a marketable and sophisticated process. But it is more complex than large tits.

The worst racism in games today comes from the American terrorism fear. It is honestly hard to find seriously horrendous examples of racism in mainstream gaming (most a simple result of immaturity and plain lack of cultural knowledge) How many big boobed, blond, white girls appear as characters in Japanese titles. That's the kind of racism you see in games. Most is forgivable and becomes less and less prominent as the industry grows up.

 

[Alex_P]

The worst racism in games today comes from the American terrorism fear.

Yeah, seeing the same Russian and generically-Middle-Eastern bad guys get really old. Especially as political situations change over time but game tropes are slow to follow suit.

At least in CoD4 they actually speak halfway decent Russian (hard to tell since they don't really say much).

-- Alex

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball had muscled men in it? Damn, well that changes everything.

Not what I said. But it's hardly sickening if some people buy games that appeal to their fetish is it? Or are you saying that certain sexualities are wrong?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Grief, this is turning into the Oscar Wilde version of a pissing contest.

That's wasn't so much misdirection as me glossing over your confusion about the weight your personal experience has, as Wilt Chamberlin is dead and I don't think you're Gene Simmons. As for your response, I say once again, now you're just making shit up ;-D

Well, far be it from me to argue with that level of direct flames. I'd hate to think that you were being prejudice against anyone's experiences though.

Fact : Some women find hirsute men attractive because of the hair.

The explanation you've proposed is about as probable as Fat Princess being an attempt to sell to men with a BBW feeding fetish.

Whilst you've not provided any explanation. Bravo!

You misunderstand the concept of cultural relativism. We only "pre-judge prejudice by a group of people with differing cultures to us" when we assume the same meaning behind things that exist in our own.

What...like that game designers put people in unrealistic costumes purely because sex sells? Glad none of us are doing that then.

I was never saying something so mercenary as that.

But Lisa was.

I always felt the sexism was in how the thinking in the game designer's minds switched when designing Chun Li from 'what combat gear should this person wear that reflects their fighting style/nationality' to 'let's use ethnic pageant wear as the inspiration for her outfit', something much more subtle and maybe not even conscious.

Hold on...so we're sexist for thinking the designers were influenced solely by sex? I think you have your terms muddled.

Like I keep saying, Lisa is arguing that women are dressed unrealistically. I provide examples of where they're not and where men are.

and

Look for the similarities rather than the differences. Lisa's point was unrealistic rolemodels.

Was it?

Yes...and in part of the bit you quoted...

I even threw out a few examples of characters I felt were designed merely as male sexual fantasy.

Yes, that's my point--you keep interpreting the words "sexual fantasy" as "unrealistic" which is why you kept missing her point.

No. Actually I didn't. She says that there are characters designed to be sexual fantasy, this means they will be unrealistic as male sexual fantasies are usually unrealistic.

See: Fantasy : Noun

* S: fantasy, phantasy (imagination unrestricted by reality) "a schoolgirl fantasy"
* S: fantasy, phantasy (fiction with a large amount of imagination in it) "she made a lot of money writing romantic fantasies"
* S: illusion, fantasy, phantasy, fancy (something many people believe that is false) "they have the illusion that I am very wealthy"

Verb

* S: (v) fantasy, fantasize, fantasise (indulge in fantasies) "he is fantasizing when he says he plans to start his own company"

Why do you keep doing that? Do you not grasp the difference between the concept of "sexual fantasy" and "unrealistic"?

Yes. But they are characters rather than real people. Therefore, probably not realistic. Therefore, if videogame characters are used as "Sexual fantasies" they will, ipso facto, be "Unrealistic".

The difference is lost from the equation. But feel free to carry on condemning my posts, I've wanted to see how an -ism felt.

 

[X3heartless]

Alright, look, I'm sorry if I came off a little strong, but that's because there are some people who come off as real dicks. X3heartless, you're one of them. I'm not saying you ARE one, but you sure do act like it. I would like it if you would stop saying "because it's american, it's good, lol." For one, I'm Canadian, and I find it repulsive that you are so ethnocentric towards people who don't live in your country.

Really, the only thing you've showed me is how short-sighted you are. I don't think I'm better than EVERYONE else. You'll notice that I pointed out in my first post that I was only talking to SOME of the forum members, one of which was you. So yeah, I think I'm better. But I think I'm better than any sexist, racist, ethnocentrist, or just plain jackass. You seem to be falling into at least one of those. If you don't, prove it to me. You won't have my respect until you do, and I sure as hell don't need yours.

I like people who live outside my country lol especially Canada,cuz you makes some bomb ass bacon,and even though i don't seem like it.
I'm quite smart,but being a prick to people on internet forums is fun lol.
I think i did cross the line with some statements,but i think I'll be more mature because i keep getting put on probation and getting attack by like 80 nerds at once lol (I myself is a nerd on the inside so don't take offense)and to be totally honest.
The more they put sexism in games to appeal to the whole frat boy gamers who think the only games that should ever be made are fps's (which I'm soooo fucking tired of).
They are ruining gaming i remember games about morals,puzzle solving and stealth.Now its just 18 morons on a map talking shit and thinking their having fun because they have a higher number than you.Which makes that entire group fucking morons,and you will NEVER see them on a forum.
So truthful have you ever seen a stealth game with a chick in it with huge t&a or a puzzle game...hellz no...=P

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

So truthful have you ever seen a stealth game with a chick in it with huge t&a or a puzzle game...hellz no...=P

How many do you want?

Natasha in Commandoes; Oni; Joanna Dark; Lara; Chell?

 

[X3heartless]

So truthful have you ever seen a stealth game with a chick in it with huge t&a or a puzzle game...hellz no...=P

How many do you want?

Natasha in Commandoes; Oni; Joanna Dark; Lara; Chell?

Damn i need a bigger game collection lol...

 

[kamstew]

i dont even think RE5 being racist is a viable argument because if the game is set in africa your going to be shooting africans no way around it nobody called it rascisim when we were knocking off armies of spanish peasants

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

I seriously never thought fat princess was a big deal. Yeah I can see a little school yard bully from 8 year old buys who play the game and tease the girls, but that was it for me. Just seems like any harmless cartoon game to me. The little guys rescue the princes as in any story and they just added some comedy as to make the princess fatter so she can move so fast. Comedy that actually affect game play is great by the way. But I guess if I was a woman and lived life as one with the media bullshit floating in my face I guess I would see something wrong with it. After all those 8 year old boys might be leaders of this world some day. (Not saying the girls won't be leaders, just saying some of them are going to be boys)



Re5 I think is just being realistic, Africans are going to live in Africa. I think if history was different and their was never slavery, RE5 would just be another action game that is fought in another country. And if it is deemed racist, wouldn't that mean we will have games that could only have one race or all of them? Just seems really unrealistic to me when games are simulators.

 

[Shade Jackrabbit]

I would just like to say now that I apologize if I said anything hurtful to everyone, and I am done debating the sexism issue.

...but not the racism one!

Re5 I think is just being realistic, Africans are going to live in Africa. I think if history was different and their was never slavery, RE5 would just be another action game that is fought in another country. And if it is deemed racist, wouldn't that mean we will have games that could only have one race or all of them? Just seems really unrealistic to me when games are simulators.

See, this is why I like science fiction. You can go to other worlds and genocide them, but they're not human so nobody gives a shit! Happy happy happy!

I don't think racism is a problem in RE5, but it could very well be in other games. I'm not really one to talk about that though. My town if unfortunately not very culturally diverse, so I've never really gotten to know someone who wasn't white, so I don't know how these kind of things would affect them.

Oh yeah, and X3heartless, have some virtual bacon as an apology. I think we both got rather riled up there. Actually, everyone have some. It's on me.

 

[lord kamina]

I always felt the sexism was in how the thinking in the game designer's minds switched when designing Chun Li from 'what combat gear should this person wear that reflects their fighting style/nationality' to 'let's use ethnic pageant wear as the inspiration for her outfit', something much more subtle and maybe not even conscious.

oh come on for one thing sf 2 was made in the 80s back one no one gave a crap about this kind of shit lets take a look

chun-li,

now take into account the date of this game its 87 little i known about china in the west games where still made for little kids and the hard core nerd audience Chinese characters where seen in movies and games pretty much all the same in the way of dress and hair style

example the manga Ranma 1/2 was released the same year featuring several Chinese characters one of witch being shampoo

see anything familiar?

you can thank Japanese character designers for most of the the over endowed women in games/anime its just how they worked they never really cared about the whole "oh my god thats sexist" or the cry of "thats raciest" i mean look at this here is a famous pic form the anime one piece where one of the pirates where re drawn to be white due to fears of complaints

now i live in Hong Kong in the years i have been here i have never ever seen anything nor any one complain or get angry about sexism/racism in gaming now it leads me to think that its all centered in the west you would think that someone by now would have something to say about Dokidoki Majo Shinpan! right? well nope non but in the west you can bet your ass that there would be an uproar of unbelievingly massive proportions

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Snippity snip

Well, who's fault is that, now? It's not me that is coming up with theories as wacky as that of Capcom trying to get women who are into big muscular men wearing fur pants to be SFII fans now, am I?

Nor me, that's an implication. What I was saying was that a big muscular man wearing very little is a turn-on to some female fans. And given his unrealistic appearance, one could say that it's a sexist view of a male.

Telling someone they are confused about something is not a flame, it's just disagreement and criticism.

"I say once again, now you're just making shit up ;-D" is though, really Cheese.

Fact : Some women find hirsute men attractive because of the hair.

Some men find very plump women attractive because of the fat is just as solid a fact.

Agreed, in fact in "Fat Princess", that's your actual goal. If it was a 'realistic' fat woman, we wouldn't be having the "Fat Princess" argument.

You never asked me for one. If that's all you've been looking for this whole time, why didn't you just ask?

Well, I would have thought the basis of discussion was the exchange of opposing viewpoints rather than the criticism of one.

Well, here it is: they wanted a big wrestling character. In fact, they wanted two. They already had E.Honda, and people associate Russia with big hairy guys who can wrestle in this context. They already had enough Americans and they wanted more international characters, otherwise they would have based the character off of the American one from _Bloodsport_ played by Ogre from _Revenge of the Nerds_. Very simple explanation, right?

And more likely than not to be much further from the truth. The more likely explanation, imho, was that they needed "Martial Artists" from all corners of the globe and the only known Russian one was Bear-Wrestling, so they took that idea and 'sexed it up'.(Not meaning direct sexuality, but as something that would be appealing)

Heh, DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!!! This part of the discussion is about my original disagreement with your SFII example, not about my derivative points meant to show that you're missing what Lisa was trying to say, isn't it?

Dear me, I'm sorry for trying to involve others. And I believe I was on the nose with what Lisa was saying.

I always felt the sexism was in how the thinking in the game designer's minds switched when designing Chun Li from 'what combat gear should this person wear that reflects their fighting style/nationality' to 'let's use ethnic pageant wear as the inspiration for her outfit', something much more subtle and maybe not even conscious.

Hold on...so we're sexist for thinking the designers were influenced solely by sex? I think you have your terms muddled.

Nope--I think you've got the streams crossed.

Then please explain Egon?

No. Actually I didn't. She says that there are characters designed to be sexual fantasy, this means they will be unrealistic as male sexual fantasies are usually unrealistic.

See: Fantasy : Noun

* S: fantasy, phantasy (imagination unrestricted by reality) "a schoolgirl fantasy"
* S: fantasy, phantasy (fiction with a large amount of imagination in it) "she made a lot of money writing romantic fantasies"
* S: illusion, fantasy, phantasy, fancy (something many people believe that is false) "they have the illusion that I am very wealthy"

Verb

* S: (v) fantasy, fantasize, fantasise (indulge in fantasies) "he is fantasizing when he says he plans to start his own company"

Umm, I don't see your point: none of those definitions include anything to indicate that a fantasy is "usually unrealistic"; what is "unrealistic" about girls in schoolgirl outfits, writing romance novels, being wealthy, or starting your own company?

Now I know you've read this, so I've just underlined the relevant details.

Why do you keep doing that? Do you not grasp the difference between the concept of "sexual fantasy" and "unrealistic"?

Yes. But they are characters rather than real people. Therefore, probably not realistic. Therefore, if videogame characters are used as "Sexual fantasies" they will, ipso facto, be "Unrealistic".

That's not how the word 'unrealistic' is used. The characters in works considered Literary Realism are also not real people, which would mean the characters of Literary Realism are "ipso facto" Unrealistic, which would make no sense.

Ok, let's take the characters of Mr. D'arcy, Heathcliff or Mr Rochester. Each of these is detailed very thinly (Can you tell me what hair colour any of them have?) but are put across as a man that woman want to love. They're unrealistically sketched so as to apply to the sexual image of most women.

The difference is lost from the equation. But feel free to carry on condemning my posts, I've wanted to see how an -ism felt.

I'm not condeming your posts; I'm pointing out how you've strayed into that "I'll make up wacky shit like Zangeif was intended for women and Huck Finn is an Unrealistic character"

Feel free to define what condemnation is then.

I mean, you're even inventing crosses for me to nail you to: when did I ever say you were "sexist" for not agreeing with me about the example of Chun Li? Where did you get that from?

I don't believe I did; but I've been away for a bit.

Besides, if you want to know what an -ism is like, keep talking about the fur pants and someone is going to attack you for being a furry. ;-D

Oh. So that makes it alright then. Because of something you keep bringing up, I'm going to be attacked.

I'm very worried Cheese that you post purely to argue without looking at the basics or an argument and then put undue focus on whatever chisels you can force into other people's discussions.