The Ketogenic Diet and a little rant, help me out here.

[Quiet Stranger]

So my rant first, it's about my mother. (The diet has to do with her as well)

Skip to the second paragraph if you really want to help me and don't care for the rant.

For a long time (or as long as I can remember) my mother has always preached to me on how certain things are bad for me, when I was in my mid teens, she bitched and preached that video games were making me anti-social and causing me to have anger problems (hah, it wasn't the video games that made me angry but her stupidity) and now she's started on this health food craze and I've just had enough of her shit. I realize that having a microwaveable dinner is bad for me but the way she talks about it is if I even have one it'll kill me, she doesn't seem to understand what moderation is. Whenever I preach to her about her diet and how bad it is and how bad the Atkins diet is, so basically preach back to her, she always interrupts me and just walks away, oh that's nice that you can preach but I can't. I'm sure I have more to say but I'm on a time limit.


So this is where I need everyone's help (or anyone who knows about this) I'm looking for info on this "Ketogenic diet" from people who have been on it, it seems like a load of shit to me, you cut out all carbs, it's a no sugars but high fat diet. It's suppose to be a diet for kids who have epilepsy and my mom has petit mal seizures so she thinks it will help her (here's hoping) but just the way she talks about this diet and another diet called "the elimination diet" as if what they entail is the "be all end all" of eating well, really pisses me off.

What I would like is both sides of this diet, the good and the bad, it's an off shoot of the atkins diet.

If anyone can help me with this, I'd much appreciate it.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

To be honest, I don't know all that much about the ketogenic diet as is relates to seizures, since I've never had seizures or know anyone who does.

I can however comment on how a ketogenic diet, and low carb diets like atkins affect the body in general. Personally, I would never go on a diet like that. As someone who is very active I really need carbohydrates in my diet. Since this is a low carb, high fat diet, the fat replaces carbs as your body's natural fuel source, but since your body is better at metabolizing carbs than it is at metabolizing fat, if you continue eating the same amount your body will effectively be starving itself because it's using more energy than you're putting into it (that's why the atkins diet works for losing weight, and also why it's not good for you, because you never want to lose weight purely by starving yourself). So if your mom is going to go on this diet she'll probably lose weight in a fairly unhealthy way (and the more active of a person she is the more weight she'll end up losing like that), and combining that with the high intake of fats, her cholesterol levels will probably increase pretty dramatically.

Also, you should probably read the following from the UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, which says that adults shouldn't use a ketogenic diet to treat epileptic seizures:

http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG020fullguideline.pdf

 

[Quiet Stranger]

To be honest, I don't know all that much about the ketogenic diet as is relates to seizures, since I've never had seizures or know anyone who does.

I can however comment on how a ketogenic diet, and low carb diets like atkins affect the body in general. Personally, I would never go on a diet like that. As someone who is very active I really need carbohydrates in my diet. Since this is a low carb, high fat diet, the fat replaces carbs as your body's natural fuel source, but since your body is better at metabolizing carbs than it is at metabolizing fat, if you continue eating the same amount your body will effectively be starving itself because it's using more energy than you're putting into it (that's why the atkins diet works for losing weight, and also why it's not good for you, because you never want to lose weight purely by starving yourself). So if your mom is going to go on this diet she'll probably lose weight in a fairly unhealthy way (and the more active of a person she is the more weight she'll end up losing like that), and combining that with the high intake of fats, her cholesterol levels will probably increase pretty dramatically.

Also, you should probably read the following from the UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, which says that adults shouldn't use a ketogenic diet to treat epileptic seizures:

http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG020fullguideline.pdf

She's not even on the diet to lose weight, just to "treat" her seizures, it was given to her by her Naturopath and as soon as she told me that I just thought "Oh for fuck sakes". I don't want to get into it but whenever I hear Naturopath (am I spelling that right?) or Homeopathy, I cringe and die a little inside.

My mother is actually a thin woman for her age, she;s in her fifties and is very thin, not anorexic thin but she really doesn't have a lot of fat on her, well not enough to be called fat (I'm confusing myself now)

EDIT: Okay that is a very long PDF file, where in it does it say adults shouldn't use the Ketogenic diet?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Rule of thumb: any and all fad diets are a load of bunk. In fact, the only named diet I've ever heard of having legitimate, non-marketing based good points is the diabetic diet, which is something medical professionals came up with to help diabetics stay healthy.

But that's aside from the point, the point is that this kind of diet isn't really about health, it's about selling people a magic bullet to solve a problem that really only has one, simple but (potentially) unpleasant solution: cut calories, exercise more. A balanced diet (which yes, will include carbs by definition) with reasonable portions, and a moderate level of physical activity is all anyone needs. The problem is that many of us like to eat huge portions of food consisting almost exclusively of carbs, fat, and protein, and avoid exercise at all costs.

If you want something to back this up, see if you can get ahold of one of the textbooks used in high school and lower level college health classes. When I was in school, you got it freshman year of both high school and college, and it covered things like how to safely lose weight. Ask around with your friends, if you're young enough and they do this in your country, chances are someone has acccess to one of those text books.

 

[McMullen]

You keep saying "preach" to describe what both of you do. To me this sounds like both of you are just yelling at each other without listening. If that's your method of communication, then it's unlikely that any quantity or quality of evidence will help you, right or wrong. If that's the case, you should look into methods for effective argument (rational argument, not the yelling kind), conflict resolution, and persuasion before collecting evidence.

 

[Dags90]

Is she at least using it to supplement anti-epileptics? As long as she's taking those it's really not a big deal if she isn't becoming obese or any outward ill effects. At worst she might have to deal with some indigestion and constipation.

Other than that it sounds like you're more in her business than you really should be, and more than you would appreciate were the situations reversed. Whole OP has an air of spitefulness.

 

[Quiet Stranger]

Is she at least using it to supplement anti-epileptics? As long as she's taking those it's really not a big deal if she isn't becoming obese or any outward ill effects. At worst she might have to deal with some indigestion and constipation.

Other than that it sounds like you're more in her business than you really should be, and more than you would appreciate were the situations reversed. Whole OP has an air of spitefulness.

Actually I'm not at all ever in her buisness and don't give two shits about what she does... it's when she starts talking shit about what I do and the things I eat and being all "holier than thou" about her diet and how what I eat will kill me and blah blah blah, I really don't care about what diet she's on or what she does but when she talks about it non-stop and how "oh this diet I'm on says this is bad for you" all I can think is "oh not this again, please shut the fuck up".

She's my mother so I'd never tell her to shut the fuck up, as much as I want to, I'm just so sick of her... I can't even think of a word for it.

 

[Quiet Stranger]

You keep saying "preach" to describe what both of you do. To me this sounds like both of you are just yelling at each other without listening. If that's your method of communication, then it's unlikely that any quantity or quality of evidence will help you, right or wrong. If that's the case, you should look into methods for effective argument (rational argument, not the yelling kind), conflict resolution, and persuasion before collecting evidence.

When I use it for myself I'm using it jokingly, although I have a feeling being "preached" to is all she has (will) ever known

 

[tilmoph]

I'm currently on a low-carb diet to lose weight, so I'll try to explain what I've gathered info-wise.

Ketogenic diets are called that because they prompt ketosis in the body via severe carb restriction (usually under 50g/day, though some go lower, with Atkins' induction phase keeping it to 20/day). Ketosis is a state where the body optimizes itself to use ketones, a byproduct of fat metabolism, as a fuel source, as opposed to glucose, usually processed from carbs.

Ketogenic diets are high in fat, since they body does very poorly on just protein (which can be broken down into glucose, but a very poor rate, with notable consequences on lean body mass, look up rabbit starvation for more info on that). Now, the basic premise of and high-fat low-carb diet is that the lipid hypothesis, which holds that large amounts of saturated fat and dietary cholesterol causes plaque build up in arteries which leads to heart disease, is wrong. The most commonly cited study on this is the Framingham study, which followed a small town for about 20 years and failed to find any link between fat consumption and heart disease or heart attacks. The Inuit are frequently cited cultural example, since living in the arctic, their traditional diet was basically all animal fats and protein.

Some of the more extreme low-carb folks will push the idea that higher carb diets prompt insulin resistance and weight gain, by forcing the body to constantly produce large amounts of insulin to handle the high glucose spike that comes from a steady source of (especially fat digesting) carbs. I'm personally a bit iffy on that one; I can see the logic, and the rise in diabetes in the western world does seem to provide some backing, but theirs a decent number of studied hunter-gatherer societies that eat high carb diets and don't have this problem, so take it as you will. I will say that low-carb isn't a bad idea if you are type-2 diabetic already, to help control the blood sugar, but otherwise doesn't seem to be a magic bullet.

Now, ketosis is, in most people, not dangerous. It's just a process of reconditioning the body to prefer fatty acids and the ketones they produce over carbs and their glucose. Either one works just fine. Some parts of the brain do seem to require some glucose, but the small amount of carbs you ingest on a low-carb, coupled with any spare protein, will provide that. The rest of the brain and body works perfectly well on ketones. The only real exception to this is a Type 1 diabetic; in that condition, ketosis runs the risk of turning into ketoacidosis, a form of blood acidity cause by a massive build-up of unusable ketone bodies in the bloodstream. However, this only a risk for that particular form of diabetes, not for the general population.

In summary: Low-carb diets are perfectly safe, as fine as a low-fat diet or a macro-neutral calorie counting program. As with a lot of restrictive diets, there is a risk of running low on some vitamins found in carb heavy fruits and some vegetables. This can be remedied by eating more high-fiber veggies (on a low-carb diet, you're counting net carbs, which is carbs minus fiber) or a vitamin supplement. It is not a magic weight lose plan; the very high initial weight lose is caused by lose of water from burning through the body's glycogen stores (stored carbs, 3 parts water to one carb/glucose). After those are exhausted, weight lose fits expected rate for you're overall calorie deficit.

Specifically for you're mother; low-carb diets actually were used in the past to treat seizure disorders, so it's not unprecedented. If this works, then theirs nothing wrong. Of course, since a natrual path recommended it, she really ought to be sure to monitor herself closely, and return to a more drug based treatment if it fails.

 

[Megalodon]

Couple of clarifications here.

Ketogenic diets are called that because they prompt ketosis in the body via severe carb restriction (usually under 50g/day, though some go lower, with Atkins' induction phase keeping it to 20/day). Ketosis is a state where the body optimizes itself to use ketones, a byproduct of fat metabolism, as a fuel source, as opposed to glucose, usually processed from carbs.

Not exactly, it's ketone bodies which are utilised during ketosis, not ketones. Ketones are just organic compounds with a carbonyl group on one of the carbon atoms that is not the end of the carbon chain. Ketine bodies are speciifc molecules produced by fatty acid breakdown.

Now, ketosis is, in most people, not dangerous. It's just a process of reconditioning the body to prefer fatty acids and the ketones they produce over carbs and their glucose. Either one works just fine. Some parts of the brain do seem to require some glucose, but the small amount of carbs you ingest on a low-carb, coupled with any spare protein, will provide that. The rest of the brain and body works perfectly well on ketones.

If by "reconditioning" you mean starving the brain of it's preferred fuel. The body isn't conditioned to "prefer" fatty acids and ketone bodies, it uses them when simpler methods of aquiring energy are unavailable. Glucose will be used if it is present.

Most tissues don't require glucose to meet their energy requirements, this is how protein and fat are used in metabolismc. They aren't converted into glucose (which does happen, but only to feed the brain), rather they're broken down to Acetly-CoA, which feeds into the citric acid cycle, providing electrons for the electorn transport chain.

The brain however, can only used glucose and ketone bodies for energy, so in the absence of glucose, it switches to ketone bodies as much as it can. While in ketosis, most of the body is getting energy from fatty acid an protein metbolism, not ketone bodies.