The Last of Us (possible spoilers)

[ZerosBoss]

Sweet, thanks so much for the quick replies and great info! Now time to get back to it and w less frustration cha Ching!

 

[Sarge034]

...their favorite bits?

Dat story... I lost my self in the character development and really felt a bond with Joel and Elli. However, the gameplay was rather repetitive. Once you figured out the best strategy for the different enemy types and the three different types of puzzles it became very autopilot-y. Except of course when the game decided to spawn in enemies at random areas after you finish ghosting everyone. Every time I 100% ghost an area an enemy spawns behind me to see the corpse and my big, bulls eye covered, ass. EVERY FUCKING TIME!!!

 

[Casual Shinji]

and about the ending, i'd expect more people to be talking about it

Spoiler

because in the end, humanity isn't saved, only Ellie is, personally i liked the ending, not because it was the moral high ground, there was no moral high ground in that situation, i liked it because it was absolutly in Joel's character, and since we've been following him around the whole game, we've learned to agree with him, anything else would have felt wrong

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

I think what the ending was supposed to reflect is that Joel needs a reason to keep going, to keep surviving. And that Ellie is it. At this point Joel has been psychologically worn down to a nub by the world he lives in and the things he's done. And he would probably have put a gun to his own head if Ellie had died, just as happened with Henry.

It's this ironic twist that despite Ellie being the kid, Joel in the end needs Ellie a lot more than she needs him. She was more than willing to sacrifice herself for the good of mankind, but Joel simply could not stand losing her. So he decided to imprison her with this lie for his own peace of mind, and maybe dooming mankind forever because of it.

A conclusion that'll stay with me for a long time.

 

[OldDirtyCrusty]

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

It's this ironic twist that despite Ellie being the kid, Joel in the end needs Ellie a lot more than she needs him. She was more than willing to sacrifice herself for the good of mankind, but Joel simply could not stand losing her. So he decided to imprison her with this lie for his own peace of mind, and maybe dooming mankind forever because of it.

A conclusion that'll stay with me for a long time.

I finished the story at four o´clock this morning and i`m not sure if i missed something but

Spoiler

is Ellie really willing to give up her own life or could it be something made up by the firefly leader?

Regardless i loved the ending and either way it`s just fitting for Joel or human nature in general.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

It's this ironic twist that despite Ellie being the kid, Joel in the end needs Ellie a lot more than she needs him. She was more than willing to sacrifice herself for the good of mankind, but Joel simply could not stand losing her. So he decided to imprison her with this lie for his own peace of mind, and maybe dooming mankind forever because of it.

A conclusion that'll stay with me for a long time.

I finished the story at four o´clock this morning and i`m not sure if i missed something but

Spoiler

is Ellie really willing to give up her own life or could it be something made up by the firefly leader?

Regardless i loved the ending and either way it`s just fitting for Joel or human nature in general.

Spoiler

I don't think it's ever made clear if Ellie regained conscienceness inbetween her almost drowning and the attempted surgery. But I think she would probably have gone through with it if she had a say, judging by her determined nature along with that bit of teenaged naivity.

And besides that, Joel killed Marlene in cold blood, and she's been with Ellie since the day she was born. Ellie probably regards her as close to a family member as can be, and would've never forgiven Joel if she found out.

Also, judging by Ellie's final reaction right before the credits roll, you have to wonder if she completely believes him.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

and about the ending, i'd expect more people to be talking about it

Spoiler

because in the end, humanity isn't saved, only Ellie is, personally i liked the ending, not because it was the moral high ground, there was no moral high ground in that situation, i liked it because it was absolutly in Joel's character, and since we've been following him around the whole game, we've learned to agree with him, anything else would have felt wrong

My thoughts exactly. I watched a friend play through the game and examined the story with him. I was gonna make a thread about the ending, but this works better.

Spoiler

I think it was in Joel's character as well. Considering how he lost his daughter to the exact same "for the greater good" logic, he wasn't going to let it happen again.

Other than that, there are other factors to consider like
-Marlene and Fireflies are just as bad the government
-Did they actually have a chance at making a cure with one specimen?
-More of a stretch, but would the cure even make a difference at this stage of the world? After the fungus has caused so much damage?

 

[HippySteve]

and about the ending, i'd expect more people to be talking about it

Spoiler

because in the end, humanity isn't saved, only Ellie is, personally i liked the ending, not because it was the moral high ground, there was no moral high ground in that situation, i liked it because it was absolutly in Joel's character, and since we've been following him around the whole game, we've learned to agree with him, anything else would have felt wrong

My thoughts exactly. I watched a friend play through the game and examined the story with him. I was gonna make a thread about the ending, but this works better.

Spoiler

I think it was in Joel's character as well. Considering how he lost his daughter to the exact same "for the greater good" logic, he wasn't going to let it happen again.

Other than that, there are other factors to consider like
-Marlene and Fireflies are just as bad the government
-Did they actually have a chance at making a cure with one specimen?
-More of a stretch, but would the cure even make a difference at this stage of the world? After the fungus has caused so much damage?

I completely understand what you're saying.

Spoiler

The worlds completely gone to shit, there are only isolated pockets of humanity and many of those are just as debased and violent as the Pittsburgh survivors or David's group. No cure could make those people human again. I mean, maybe it'd help the few remaining quarantine zones to expand and reclaim, but then there's a 1984 situation at worst and a massive war at best.

 

[Schadrach]

I think Naughty Dog did good making the melee weapons break as quickly as they do. It prepares you so that whenever you chose to bash an enemy's skull in you know you're likely going to lose it right after. This gets rid of the uncertainty that degradable weapons bring. Plus, there's always a new one lying around somewhere.

Personally, I was fine with them breaking, except that they seemed to break unrealistically fast. It just seems...wrong that a pipe can only withstand bludgeoning two people to death (8 durability sections) before it's unusable.

And if I can give you some advice... Don't use your shives on enemies. You can use them to open doors you can't otherwise, doors that hold a lot of supplies and savage.

Yeah, I missed one of those doors because shivving a house full of clickers ran me dry (nowadays I only shiv clickers if there are also runners around and I think I'll have trouble strangling the runners without alerting them). I'm in the hotel post-elevator collapse now and have a full stock of, well, everything.

Was pretty much the only thing that killed me throughout the entire game... and i was playing on Hard >_<

Groups that start out aware of me were also a problem for me too, but I don't play shooters on console so I'm a bit clunky at the shooting, so I try not to unless it's necessary. I hit the first bloater with a molotov, and was...concerned when that just seemed to piss it off. Because what's worse than a spore flinging zombie that will instakill you in melee? One that is also on fire and doesn't seem to care.

And should we mention that for once the female characters are actually portrayed like strong and independant survivors who were dependable and amazing?

*Puts on my Anita mask* But it's a game where the main character's daughter gets murdered in order to build characterization for him, then later he gets a damsel to escort through the rest of the game and his female sidekick gets fridged. MISOGYNY! *Takes off Anita mask*

Honestly? I'm really digging the characterization and story so far. It's extremely well done. Also, regarding aesthetics, the lighting is amazing. Just get close to the red wall tile in the subway with your flashlight on, or the light coming through the stained glass windows in the chapel.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think Naughty Dog did good making the melee weapons break as quickly as they do. It prepares you so that whenever you chose to bash an enemy's skull in you know you're likely going to lose it right after. This gets rid of the uncertainty that degradable weapons bring. Plus, there's always a new one lying around somewhere.

Personally, I was fine with them breaking, except that they seemed to break unrealistically fast. It just seems...wrong that a pipe can only withstand bludgeoning two people to death (8 durability sections) before it's unusable.

I don't know, you'd have to dig up some grim real world numbers to verify whether it would or wouldn't break that fast in similar situations. But in the end I think it helped make the fights look that much more vicious (breaking a lead pipe over somebody's skull), and emphasizes the disposability of everything in this world - From food, to ammo, to human lives.

And if I can give you some advice... Don't use your shives on enemies. You can use them to open doors you can't otherwise, doors that hold a lot of supplies and savage.

Yeah, I missed one of those doors because shivving a house full of clickers ran me dry (nowadays I only shiv clickers if there are also runners around and I think I'll have trouble strangling the runners without alerting them). I'm in the hotel post-elevator collapse now and have a full stock of, well, everything.

If there's one small critique I can give to the combat, it's that shivving human enemies or "runners" holds little to no advantage over simply choking them. And that at the lose of your shiv. The latter might take a bit longer, increasing the chances of being spotted, but this rarely happened to me. And as soon as I realized that I only ever used a shiv as stealth weapon when a Clicker was in the way of something.

It would've been more authentic if choking occured at the risk of losing a bit of your health. Which, with the victim in question flailing about trying to break free, isn't too far fetched.

I'd also advise anyone playing this game to do so without the "listen" button. It makes enemy encounters so much more rich and intense. Knowing that you can fuck up and have enemies flank you, or suddenly unknowingly bumping into one gives the fights a tremendous sense of life and character.

 

[I Max95]

and about the ending, i'd expect more people to be talking about it

Spoiler

because in the end, humanity isn't saved, only Ellie is, personally i liked the ending, not because it was the moral high ground, there was no moral high ground in that situation, i liked it because it was absolutly in Joel's character, and since we've been following him around the whole game, we've learned to agree with him, anything else would have felt wrong

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

I think what the ending was supposed to reflect is that Joel needs a reason to keep going, to keep surviving. And that Ellie is it. At this point Joel has been psychologically worn down to a nub by the world he lives in and the things he's done. And he would probably have put a gun to his own head if Ellie had died, just as happened with Henry.

It's this ironic twist that despite Ellie being the kid, Joel in the end needs Ellie a lot more than she needs him. She was more than willing to sacrifice herself for the good of mankind, but Joel simply could not stand losing her. So he decided to imprison her with this lie for his own peace of mind, and maybe dooming mankind forever because of it.

A conclusion that'll stay with me for a long time.

Spoiler

maybe she would have agreed to sacrifice herself, but look at how she reacted when Joel sweared to her what he said about the Fireflies was true, i think she knew he was lying, but chose to accept the lie rather than know the truth

 

[Casual Shinji]

and about the ending, i'd expect more people to be talking about it

Spoiler

because in the end, humanity isn't saved, only Ellie is, personally i liked the ending, not because it was the moral high ground, there was no moral high ground in that situation, i liked it because it was absolutly in Joel's character, and since we've been following him around the whole game, we've learned to agree with him, anything else would have felt wrong

Spoiler: Major Spoiler

I think what the ending was supposed to reflect is that Joel needs a reason to keep going, to keep surviving. And that Ellie is it. At this point Joel has been psychologically worn down to a nub by the world he lives in and the things he's done. And he would probably have put a gun to his own head if Ellie had died, just as happened with Henry.

It's this ironic twist that despite Ellie being the kid, Joel in the end needs Ellie a lot more than she needs him. She was more than willing to sacrifice herself for the good of mankind, but Joel simply could not stand losing her. So he decided to imprison her with this lie for his own peace of mind, and maybe dooming mankind forever because of it.

A conclusion that'll stay with me for a long time.

Spoiler

maybe she would have agreed to sacrifice herself, but look at how she reacted when Joel sweared to her what he said about the Fireflies was true, i think she knew he was lying, but chose to accept the lie rather than know the truth

Yeah, I kinda think so, too.

Spoiler

Adam Sessler in his review compared Joel to Don Quixote, and he's a right on the money. Throughout the whole game there's this sense of every character lying to themselves to run away from what the world has become, disguised as this noble struggle to survive. And the ending is the perfect culmination of that.

At face value the ending seems to show Joel and Ellie deciding to live out their lives in peace at Tommy's settlement. But in actuality it's them just waiting to die at the next settlement on the chopping block.

It's grim as all hell, but that's what makes it so good.

 

[Joseph Harrison]

snip

Can I just thank you for having this conversation, it helped me wrap my head around the ending cuz I didn't really know what to think at this point, I only beat the game 20 minutes ago.

Spoiler

I think that Joel made the right choice, the world had already gone to shit and I don't think a cure would do much good at this point, this whole game really reminded me of Children of Men which raised a similar question, and I don't think killing an innocent girl would have been worth it.

OT: I think this game was amazing, the story, the characters the setting, everything is just fantastic. The combat is visceral, dynamic and brutal and I haven't been this engaged in a game in a while. This year has just been so fantastic, Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last Light, my Best of 2013 list is filling up fast.

 

[THE_MUFFIN_MAN15]

Spoiler

I don't think it's ever made clear if Ellie regained conscienceness inbetween her almost drowning and the attempted surgery. But I think she would probably have gone through with it if she had a say, judging by her determined nature along with that bit of teenaged naivity.

And besides that, Joel killed Marlene in cold blood, and she's been with Ellie since the day she was born. Ellie probably regards her as close to a family member as can be, and would've never forgiven Joel if she found out.

Also, judging by Ellie's final reaction right before the credits roll, you have to wonder if she completely believes him.

Spoiler

I don't buy that she would have wanted to go through with it since she often talks about what she wants to do after it's all done like learning to swim. I think she probably thought it would just be a blood sample when they get to the fireflies and then they would be on their way. Also Marlene's a *****. No seriously, she takes your guns at the beginning and then tells you to take this girl to the fireflies for her and then when you get there after a long and painful journey it turns out she got there too without a scratch and makes you leave at gun point. Plus if the wiki is to be believed she promised Ellie's mother that she would take care of Ellie but it seems that promise went out the window when she could sacrifice Ellie for a useless too little too late cure. I would bet anything that she had other plans and couldn't care less about anyone else. As for the lie at the end, I think she didn't believe him since she wouldn't ask him to swear presumably hours after he told the lie (which wasn't a very good lie to begin with, I mean if they weren't looking for a cure why would they have her in a hospital robe and all drugged up). Instead Ellie chooses to trust Joel since he has proven that he really cares for her safety during the later parts of the game

 

[Steve Waltz]

I don't know how people are saying this game is scary. The only time I ever felt any tension was in the hotel basement. It's dark and creepy, enemies are fought one-at-a-time, you can't see the stalkers through walls and they don't kill you in one bite.

That's practically the only part of the game where tension actually gets a chance to build up to a disturbing level. The first time I ran into a clicker it was over in under a minute. I strangled a runner, tried to strangle a second one but got spotted and was completely overrun by zombies (L4D style) and finally blind-sided by a clicker. And that's the whole story with the infected, really. As soon as I took any action other than lurking about, such as a single gun shot, the game turned into Left 4 Dead with every zombie rushing towards my location. How is tension supposed to build when the second after I bash an infected's skull with a brick every single hostile in the room charges at me like I set off a car alarm in L4D and I either die instantly or kill everything quick. I RARELY ever felt tension build up thanks to the clickers charging at me the moment I do practically anything.


It's even less scary than Resident Evil 4 thanks to the lack of stakes. Because of the insta-kills the game autosaves before and between combat sequences, if you die you lose absolutely NO progress and just start the fight over. How am I supposed to be scared of dying when I lose nothing? Dying is scary because it takes EVERYTHING away from you, or at the very least game progress, but I lose nothing in this game. In fact, there are times where I deliberately ask the game to kill me because so I can re-do the fight. I have no idea how anyone found this scary. The only reason to avoid dying is so I don't have to see the animation of a bloater ripping my skull open.

With no tension building and no stakes on death, this game is all survival and 0% horror. After being told by critics how intense the horror was in this game I was really looking forward to something heartpounding, but there's nothing. When you have to die and restart all previous tension is reset and conflicts are resolved too fast for any sort of fear to sink in and eat away at the player. I wonder if they were given a special copy of the game to play...




I also think the button configuration is awkward, and I know I'm not the only one considering I see people punching when trying to pick up supplies in multiplayer mode. In my opinion, X should have been melee, Square as the main function button, and triangle as the vault/climb button. Having X as one of the least used buttons in a game (outside of the UI) is kind of mind-blowing in a "Wow, really?" kind of sense.

 

[Casual Shinji]

snip

Can I just thank you for having this conversation, it helped me wrap my head around the ending cuz I didn't really know what to think at this point, I only beat the game 20 minutes ago.

Spoiler

I think that Joel made the right choice, the world had already gone to shit and I don't think a cure would do much good at this point, this whole game really reminded me of Children of Men which raised a similar question, and I don't think killing an innocent girl would have been worth it.

OT: I think this game was amazing, the story, the characters the setting, everything is just fantastic. The combat is visceral, dynamic and brutal and I haven't been this engaged in a game in a while. This year has just been so fantastic, Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last Light, my Best of 2013 list is filling up fast.

Yeah, I got a pretty big Children of Men vibe, too.

Except...

Spoiler

Children of Men ends on a hopeful note, The Last of Us definately does not.

I'd also like to say that despite his overuse, Nolan North proves he's an incredibly talented voice actor and performer. I didn't even know he was Dave untill I saw his name in the credits.

Spoiler

I don't think it's ever made clear if Ellie regained conscienceness inbetween her almost drowning and the attempted surgery. But I think she would probably have gone through with it if she had a say, judging by her determined nature along with that bit of teenaged naivity.

And besides that, Joel killed Marlene in cold blood, and she's been with Ellie since the day she was born. Ellie probably regards her as close to a family member as can be, and would've never forgiven Joel if she found out.

Also, judging by Ellie's final reaction right before the credits roll, you have to wonder if she completely believes him.

Spoiler

I don't buy that she would have wanted to go through with it since she often talks about what she wants to do after it's all done like learning to swim. I think she probably thought it would just be a blood sample when they get to the fireflies and then they would be on their way. Also Marlene's a *****. No seriously, she takes your guns at the beginning and then tells you to take this girl to the fireflies for her and then when you get there after a long and painful journey it turns out she got there too without a scratch and makes you leave at gun point. Plus if the wiki is to be believed she promised Ellie's mother that she would take care of Ellie but it seems that promise went out the window when she could sacrifice Ellie for a useless too little too late cure. I would bet anything that she had other plans and couldn't care less about anyone else. As for the lie at the end, I think she didn't believe him since she wouldn't ask him to swear presumably hours after he told the lie (which wasn't a very good lie to begin with, I mean if they weren't looking for a cure why would they have her in a hospital robe and all drugged up). Instead Ellie chooses to trust Joel since he has proven that he really cares for her safety during the later parts of the game

Spoiler

Well, in all honesty, Joel is just as bad as Marlene. Maybe even worse. That torture scene during "Winter" shows Joel's true colours, and they ain't pretty. Ofcourse he does it because he thinks Ellie's in grave danger, but still... Right in the kneecap?! Oy! He also admits to having killed innocent people to survive.

I've heard a lot of people talk about how the cure wouldn't matter since human society is already done. But I don't know. It probably wouldn't make a difference for the next 10 years or so, but in the long run it could create a stable foundation for mankind to pick itself up. Afterall, everything went to shit due to fear of infection. You take that fear away and things could find some equal footing again.

 

[m19]

It's a great story. And ballsy ending.

Although I kind of thought Ellie was a 'Mary Sue', in a sense that she was too much of a perfect kid for the apocalypse with no notable flaws. Especially compared to the deeply flawed Joel.

 

[THE_MUFFIN_MAN15]

Spoiler

Well, in all honesty, Joel is just as bad as Marlene. Maybe even worse. That torture scene during "Winter" shows Joel's true colours, and they ain't pretty. Ofcourse he does it because he thinks Ellie's in grave danger, but still... Right in the kneecap?! Oy! He also admits to having killed innocent people to survive.

Spoiler

I've heard a lot of people talk about how the cure wouldn't matter since human society is already done. But I don't know. It probably wouldn't make a difference for the next 10 years or so, but in the long run it could create a stable foundation for mankind to pick itself up. Afterall, everything went to shit due to fear of infection. You take that fear away and things could find some equal footing again.

Spoiler

Spoiler

True, Joel is quite the violent man. That's what he had to be in order to survive in a world of violent people. As for whether Marlene or Joel is the most evil. I think that is a matter of opinion since Marlene has an army and seems to be willing to kill or betray anyone for a vaccine or cure, and Joel kills people to survive.
As for the vaccine, I still believe it would have been a waste and done no good seeing as: they weren't 100% sure it would work, they only had Ellie which I doubt would be nearly enough, and if they get it then everyone will be flocking and bowing down to the fascist fireflies who I think would instate themselves as supreme leader (and neglect to give their former enemies such as the military any of the vaccine). Also, I think it's a little late for a vaccine, in fact about 20 years late since humanity is too spread out and divided to cooperate. Lastly, I don't think removing fear of infection would help since if humanity was unable to fight the infected with gas masks, fire, and guns, I doubt being vaccinated would boost everyone's spirits and/or even provide a footing what with the infected's numbers too high for a lack of new recruits to make a difference in the war against the small packs of humans that remain. So thus, my stance on Marlene and the fireflies remains; they are fucking crazy and needed to be stopped. Joel was right in saving Ellie instead of leaving her for Marlene to have her petty little personal reprieve and accomplish nothing for humanity. Joel didn't selfishly steal humanity's chances of survival, because there wasn't any to begin with