The logic behind the rage for the "alienation" of Videogame series.

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SonicKoala

The Night Zombie
Sep 8, 2009
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Bertylicious said:
SonicKoala said:
No, you're right, MGS3 was "Snake Eater", a.k.a the one in the jungle. And it seems as though you are basing your "MGS3 was objectively rubbish" opinion on the feedback of 4 other people and you. From what I've seen in terms of both critical reception and fan reception, MGS3 was an enormous hit. It was a fresh departure from the "sneaking around bases" trope, it introduced an interesting new setting, an enjoyable and entertaining new game mechanic (the camouflage), and some pretty tight writing (for the MGS series), something which was very much welcome after MGS 2's labyrinthine plot. Plus, you had moments like the epic tank chase near the end, or the absolutely brilliant boss fight with "The End". Hell, all the boss fights were well-executed.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but saying it's "objectively" rubbish simply isn't true. Oh, and you sort of conflated your MGS titles at the end there. MGS 2 was subtitled "Sons of Liberty", whereas MGS 4 was subtitled "Guns of the Patriots". To be fair, though, I would play the hell out of "Guns of Liberty".
Ah well there we are then. I cede the point; I've gone and assumed a belief is truth which is proper numpty.

Still though, I am suprised you enjoyed the camoflage system. I found it very intrusive and unintuitive; you'd be crawling along some leaves and then you'd hit some different colour leaves so you'd have to stop, go into the menu system, change your camo, go back out of the menu system, wait for bloke to wander off, crawl another few meters to get to some different coloured leaves, stop, go back into the menu...

The whole experience was like riding a British train in the autumn.
Huh, now that I think about it, I can totally understand where you're coming from with the camouflage system. In some areas, I remember constantly having to switch my camo back and forth so as to keep it above 80%. In the "industrial" areas it didn't matter, but I can see your point about how it really interfered with the flow of gameplay. Despite that, I still enjoyed the game, though, so I guess it didn't bother me enough for it to be a deal breaker.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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NiPah said:
I was thinking about changes like the HUD display of the previous portal and lessoning available portal space, they are minimal but help beginning players not get stuck. There was also the addition of paints, a huge new element of gameplay, and instead of valve talking about how the gamer will love these changes they showed gameplay videos on how players interacted with the paint making everyone look forward to Portal 2.

I think it's similar to what Rockstar does with GTA, if they had made a press release saying "We're shifting our focus to be much more realistic to get more fans" there would have been a shit storm, but they just showed some very realistic trailers and people were fine (at least until they played the game).
I don't really see how thats changing it to "suit a broader audience"

people have called Portal "basically a turorial" and I think those things you mentioned are an example of how good Valve are at easing you into the gameplay...and the gel is a gameplay inovation/somthing new..thats got nothing to do with reaching a bigger audience

now if Valve had given us enemies to shoot in the "traditional" sense (pow! pow! youre dead!) then that would have been an obvious attepmt at "broadening the audience" but Valve are to classey for that
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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canadamus_prime said:
Whether it was first or third person is irrelevant, the point is that it wasn't from an isometric viewpoint or turn based like it's predecessors.
rhizhim said:
Vault101 said:
rhizhim said:
really all were arguing about are definitions

I just don't like calling it a FPS because due to all the baggage attatched to that word I feel it does the game a disservice...I guess you could call it a FPS but I'm more comfortable with RPG...I guess I could be wrong

[small/]on another note anyone who calls Mass Effect or Gears of war a FPS needs to be shot in the face[/small]
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
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Vault101 said:
canadamus_prime said:
Whether it was first or third person is irrelevant, the point is that it wasn't from an isometric viewpoint or turn based like it's predecessors.
really all were arguing about are definitions

I just don't like calling it a FPS because due to all the baggage attatched to that word I feel it does the game a disservice...I guess you could call it a FPS but I'm more comfortable with RPG...I guess I could be wrong

[small/]on another note anyone who calls Mass Effect or Gears of war a FPS needs to be shot in the face[/small]
Yes I realize that. Definitions which were really beside the point entirely.

And I understand what you're saying about calling it an FPS, but if I recall his original post, he didn't call it an FPS, he just said it was in first person, which is true. However lots of games are in the first person that aren't shooters, hell Myst is in first person and that sure as hell isn't a shooter. Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are also in the first person, but they're not shooters (yes, I know they also have a 3rd person mode too, but it isn't the default).
 

Ramzal

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Jun 24, 2011
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SweetShark said:
Many times in the past and of course now recently, we saw many Videogame series get alienate for many different reasons.
Some developers say they wanted to try to make the series more darker and more serious that the previous games [Bomberman Zero], some others said they wanted to tell a different story than the original had [Devil May Cry 2012], some others wanted to change the gameplay entirely and make it a different style of game [Xcom 2012, the FPS], etc, etc...

When something like that happen, many people start rage to the developers for not trying to make the make like the original.
They rage for the new look of the main character, they rage for complete change of the gameplay, they rage for some tiny details that maked the game unique and the list go on...

With that said.....
Why we don't see this kind of rage in some other Videogames that they as well changed a lot from the original games?

Why for example they didn't raged about the Doom 3? Doom 3 is a very good example of alienation of the original game. Doom 3 have a different look, the monsters doesn't exacly the same, diffeent type of action, the horror elements etc, etc...
But yet, the fan of the series [like me] didn't make it something so serious that believed it will "murder" the series.

Another example is Resident Evil 4. Seriously, the developers make the biggest alienation and stick with it in the others titles cause it had success. They made the Resident Evil series from a pure horror series, to a Fast-Third Person-Action B-movie series.
But again, never I saw a serious negative reaction for this game.

Of course there are many, MANY examples I can say [The Anime like Lost Planet, Metal Gear Solid Card game, etc...], but why we see this rage in specific games and not in some other game even they clearly changes a lot of things?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF_OtG3vDmY

If you like a game, you like a game. If you don't like one, you don't. Who cares what "alienation" is made. All that matters is if it's fun or good or not.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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rhizhim said:
I wasn't arguing about how good/bad Fallout 3 was..just its def-

you know this is getting pointless

and some people do..they think shooter and FPS are the same thing...or "close enough" again...same thing there
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
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SweetShark said:
Another example is Resident Evil 4. Seriously, the developers make the biggest alienation and stick with it in the others titles cause it had success. They made the Resident Evil series from a pure horror series, to a Fast-Third Person-Action B-movie series.
But again, never I saw a serious negative reaction for this game.
Resident Evil was getting stagnant as hell after RE 3, and Resident Evil 4 cleaned house and got rid of all that convoluted bullshit the series had become. Plus, it was one of the best games ever made.

Not that a lot of people weren't still complaining about it though.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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rhizhim said:
Vault101 said:
rhizhim said:
I wasn't arguing about how good/bad Fallout 3 was..just its def-

you know this is getting pointless

and some people do..they think shooter and FPS are the same thing...or "close enough" again...same thing there
AWGODINTHEHEAVENS!

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i never thought i would see a person so stubborn....like me.

okay lets change the discussion.

do you think gearbox will do something good with the duke nukem IP?

do you think they will ever release the xcom shooter and will we get more realistic foes than cubes, rectangles and liquids you, hold you horses, can shoot dead.
wait...what are we talking about again?...

[small/]just for clarification I didn't mean I think shooter is "close enough" to FPS as far as descriptions of games go....I hate that, some people disregard the F in FPS...but not me[/small]
 

NerfedFalcon

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Mar 23, 2011
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Zhukov said:
Sixcess said:
a new take on a series is most likely to be accepted if the original series is technically obsolete - [...] or isometric rpgs in Fallout. People didn't resent breaking away from the old styles as much because the old styles in those cases were already effectively dead.
Freeze! Nitpick police!

Fallout 3 being 3D and first person actually pissed off quite a few people. Hell, you can still find folks moaning about it to this day.
And yet a lot of those people liked New Vegas. Here's the most common complaint I've heard: "Fallout 3 didn't retain the spirit of Fallout the way New Vegas did."

Whatever the hell that means.
 

SweetShark

Shark Girls are my Waifus
Jan 9, 2012
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Ramzal said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF_OtG3vDmY

If you like a game, you like a game. If you don't like one, you don't. Who cares what "alienation" is made. All that matters is if it's fun or good or not.
Well, one of the reasons is if a game it is fun to play from a specific series, lets just say for now the FPS X-com, and we all have accepted that, then why we should care about the identity a game have that make the X-com series unique from its own?

With that logic every single publisher would wanted from the developers to create FPS game cause CoD is one of the hightest bought videogame series in the market.
And you know what? This actually is happening with many publishers.

We in our turn, with our feedback, we should draw a "line" that the publisher/developers must never cross it. This "line" could be many different things.

-A "line" about how the main characters should look and act.
-A "line" about the core gameplay of the videogame we play.
-A "line" about the "structure" of a story you follow in a videogame.
-etc

That why we should care, cause in the end we should all started playing the next CoD clone that in the old time it was a respectfull unique videogame series from its own.

Of course, for me many times I don't really care so much cause as you said the title will be actually very enjoyable and also I like if they want to try something new with the game [Devil May Cry 2012], but like many people, I have some specific "lines" for some games I don't want the publisher/developers to cross and f*ck up everything.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
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For nearly every example I can think of, the "alienation" is just a symptom of deeper problems.

Loss of Identity, Homogenization of Genre, and Market Saturation.

I'm surprised the Mario franchise hasn't come up, because it's arguably the best example of how a popular franchise has gone out, expanded into other game types/genres, experimented and then contracted back.

And Mario has dealt with ALL of the problems listed above at one point or another.
One could claim that this isn't a problem for Mario, and that "alienation" is therefore a problem created by the whiny minority.

But that would ignore the fact that the Mario games Nintendo currently sells are pretty niche' genres. There aren't many platformers or even racing games in the AAA business currently; none that get the kind of attention shooters get anyway.