The lull of RPGs

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kazann

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Jan 18, 2013
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What happened with RPGs? Are we going to sit and pretend that RPGs today are as good as BG, PST or deus ex? It feels as though they continually get more and more shallow, if not seize to exist for a couple of years only to come back with another shooter or adventure game with "RPG elements" that goes and calls itself an RPG.

Honestly, the last good RPG i played was DAO, it may have been your typical fantasy, elfs orcs rpg thats been done a hundred times, but it was good. However what followed was pathetic, DA2 and mass effect 2 were disappointments and hardly RPGs.

I had a hypothesis that the decline in RPGs was to do with the advancement of games tech, as games got bigger, more expensive and cinematic - we saw shooters explode but RPGS slowly fall.

with everything needing to nearly be voice acted now days, it makes sense how it would be extremely expensive to voice 9 novels worth of writing for one game, which gets me thinking why the fuck do they need to be voice acted? I think BG2 and DAO had the right idea, have half of the game voice acted, the protagonist for an RPG does NOT NEED voice acting because your voice is meant to be HIS.

Bethesda dont count imo, they just make huge sandbox games with cardboard cut-out npcs and laughable writing and stories.

not gonna get into the jrpgs, tbh, they never really interested me. The whole spiky hair and obnoxiously large weapons were a turn off.

CD projekt red seems to be on the right track however, they have a few minor issues, mostly to do with interface - but they're getting better.

Deus EX:HR was good, but even that was so incredibly shallow in comparison to the original, is it because they're trying to make the games more accessible? are the old school RPGS too niche?
 

aPod

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Jan 14, 2010
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Short answers yes, and yes.

As AAA RPG's seek a wider audience they are going about it by reducing/removing all the tedious little things that allowed players to really play the role they wanted to play. Most people don't have the patience or the ability to engage themselves in a story the way old school rpg's require us too; best just get rid of it.

So yes, old school RPGs are being delegated to the niche, space flight combat simulators welcome you with open arms.

Publishers look at market's, the OldSchoolRPG fans aren't as large as the ActionRPG fans of today.

Now I would argue that I actually prefer the ARPG's more than the oldschool but I guess I probably lose some man points for that.
 

The Madman

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You haven't looked very hard have you? No offense meant, but old fashioned PC style rpg have been making a comeback lately.

Project Eternity, Banner Saga, Wasteland 2, and Torment: Tides of Numenera are all fantastic looking upcoming PC rpg's due for release next year. Then we've got the biggies like Witcher 3 and Dragon Age 3, which I really really want to be good since it truly feels like Bioware has been slipping lately, and a few other projects like the late Chaos Chronicles (Which might or might not have been cancelled) and the new Divinity rpg due for release around then as well (Hopefully). If you want even more yet older-school style rpg action there's even Legend of Grimrock 2 and another Spiderweb Software rpg in the works in the form of Avernum 2.

So I'm not too worried. The PC rpg market has been making a resurgence lately and if even half those games live up to their promise 2014 very well might be one of the best years for rpg fans, well, ever. Maybe. Possibly. I'm crossing my fingers here even if you can't see it.

And if you're looking for something more in the present, Shadowrun Returns was released not long ago and is a great Cyberpunk old-school PC rpg. The first of the upcoming wave. Not a perfect game by any means but damned fun and refreshing regardless of its flaws.
 

scorptatious

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May 14, 2009
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Well at least Disgaea D2 is almost here. Although that might not be your cup of tea if that bit about JRPG's suggests anything.

Plus Fallout: New Vegas is amazing. Sure it uses Bethesda's engine, but Obsidian actually did the writing and I think it did a great job at allowing you to create the character YOU want without having him become a demi-god.
 

Exius Xavarus

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May 19, 2010
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How can you say RPGs as a whole are declining, if you're closing out half the genre? If you're going to ignore the entirety of SRPGs and JRPGs, you cannot truly say that RPGs are declining, because you have no idea how half the genre is faring.

There are plenty of quality SRPGs and JRPGs out there. RPGs are just becoming more niche than they once were. I don't believe you can truly say that RPGs are declining, simply because you're unhappy with current releases in your sub-genre.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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The broad trend of the perceived decline is caused by a number of factors. The first is that in the AAA space, games are expensive as hell to make - giant games even more so. RPGs tend to call for an enormous cast list, dozens of locations, and the creation of a fantastic number of systems. More development dollars have to be spent on things like AI than would be required in an FPS simply because the average character in an RPG has to do a great deal more than pop out of a monster closet, run to the nearest cover node, and occasionally shoot at the player until they're dispatched. Because of this cost, making a AAA RPG (or any other genre) is incredibly high risk and, as such, compromises are made to ensure the game will appeal to as many people as possible. This tends to result in streamlining systems to make them easier to understand and, in some cases, results in an unambiguous loss of player agency - the one defining characteristic of an RPG.


Exius Xavarus said:
How can you say RPGs as a whole are declining, if you're closing out half the genre? If you're going to ignore the entirety of SRPGs and JRPGs, you cannot truly say that RPGs are declining, because you have no idea how half the genre is faring.
The JRPG genre has long been in decline. That isn't to say you won't see the occasional gem - I loved Dragon's Dogma for example. But JRPGs have been following more or less the same tack as WRPGs have of late. Consider, for example, Dark Souls. That game has a short list of shallow mechanics that are easy to comprehend and execute - a nod, perhaps, to a design that is fine with murdering a player for a single mistake. Difficulty, in this case, does not equate to depth which is largely what the OP is upset about.

All that said, if you look outside the AAA space, you'll find that there are lots of RPGs being made of varying quality. Hell, Dark Souls was made on a shoestring budget compared to something like Skyrim and while only claimed as a favorite by a relative few, they are ardent supporters of the brand. Steam is veritably lousy with independently developed RPGs these days - and lots of them are very good.
 

Eve Charm

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RPG's were never that big, you got a good one or two a year and that's it back in the day. something like BG and DA you have Xcom and smaller releases now like krater because the genre doesn't have to be triple A. You also have Diablo 3 and sacred 2
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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kazann said:
Honestly, the last good RPG i played was DAO, it may have been your typical fantasy, elfs orcs rpg thats been done a hundred times, but it was good. However what followed was pathetic, DA2 and mass effect 2 were disappointments and hardly RPGs.

Deus EX:HR was good, but even that was so incredibly shallow in comparison to the original, is it because they're trying to make the games more accessible? are the old school RPGS too niche?
Mass Effect 2 and 3 are more RPGs than 99.9% of RPGs out there, past or present. I really hate when people say ME2 and ME3 aren't RPGs because people just don't understand what an RPG is. RPGs are all about the role-playing, it's what separates them from other genres. You can have any kind of battle system in an RPG because RPGs have no gameplay requirements whatsoever. ME2's battle system is a TPS for example, Deus Ex's battle system is a FPS, the Tales series is a hack and slash, and many have turn-based combat. What determines a RPG is what you can do outside of combat, and fucking half of Mass Effect 2 is making choice after choice shaping your Shepard into his/her own character. If that's not a fucking RPG, then I don't know what the fuck is. As you can see, it greatly annoys me when people say Mass Effect is not an RPG and it's instead a Shooter with RPG elements or something of the sort. Literally, one mission in Mass Effect has more role-playing than the entirety of the whole Final Fantasy series, yet Final Fantasy is 100% RPG and Mass Effect is a shooter...

Since it seems like you don't really care about the role-playing for your RPGs, XCOM Enemy Unknown probably has everything you'd want from an RPG. It's battle system is basically DnD but tailored for strictly gun combat vs aliens. You have basically a move action and a standard action for every character in your party per round (exactly like DnD), and the combat is very strategic. The way you level up your soldiers is well done where one of your Assault class soldiers can be pretty different from another based on how you level them up.

Deus Ex: HR was a really good game, I don't think it was much shallower than the original. The one thing I don't like about Deus Ex: HR is how you build your character over the game. Everyone's character at the end of Deus Ex: HR is basically the same. You had way more character builds in the original as augmentations get locked out based on the choices you made whereas in Deus Ex: HR, you could have it all pretty much.
 

Caiphus

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Mar 31, 2010
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I, like the OP, have also noticed a lack of good WRPGs recently, although, unlike the OP, I sort of enjoyed Bioware's most recent offerings. Even though I understand they moved even further away from the traditional RPG and more towards action with dialogue choices + party members (which I like, so I don't really givafuq). And the guy above me says that's an RPG anyway. So yeah, clearly I have impeccable taste.

I suppose if I'd have to give a reason as to why, it would be:

http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/7/xbox-360/

Notice that, out of the top 10, 7 games are shooters, and two are action games (including GTA V). The other is kinectimals.

Out of the top 20, there is one RPG, Skyrim, and 14 shooters.

Admittedly, racing and sports games start to come in below that. RPGs still remain sparse. There's a cause and effect somewhere, but if you are a publisher hoping to make tons of money, what are you going to do? The market demands shooters and action games.

Developers/publishers are just trying to get in on that.

Edit: And, naturally, the PS3 has a similar trend.

http://www.vgchartz.com/platform/3/playstation-3/
 

kazann

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Jan 18, 2013
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Caiphus said:
although, unlike the OP, I sort of enjoyed Bioware's most recent offerings. Even though I understand they moved even further away from the traditional RPG and more towards action with dialogue choices + party members (which I like, so I don't really givafuq).
I actually did enjoy DA2, becides the re-cycled areas and stupid combat (enemies popping from thin air) it was fun, but compared to dao, lack luster.

As with your other points, yeah i see what you mean, i didnt know it was that bad wow.

Phoenixmgs said:
As you can see, it greatly annoys me when people say Mass Effect is not an RPG and it's instead a Shooter with RPG elements or something of the sort. Literally.
its not that its not an rpg, its just a very shallow one compared to its predecessors.

The Madman said:
Project Eternity, Banner Saga, Wasteland 2, and Torment: Tides of Numenera are all fantastic looking upcoming PC rpg's
I actually wasn't aware of Torment: Tides of Numenera, thanks of these!

However, its still a shame that to get a good rpg, these are the routes we need to go and cannot rely on AAA

Klagnut said:
I actually think you raise a good point, but I guess it's not so much "The lull of RPGs" as opposed to "the disappointment that we've not had much yet to match games from several years ago". DA:O & ME:1 set the bar very high and DA:2, ME:2 & ME:3 fell well short of that standard from an RPG POV. Several years on we should be seeing more games of that quality, not less or watered down cash-ins.

And I totally agree with your point regards a voiced protagonist. It's nothing short of stupid that a company would waste resources on something which is no way key to the game. A voiced protagonist should be a bonus, not an essential. It has it's place and can be great if done well, but it certainly shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the pecking order of priorities.

The Witcher 2 was a great fix, and after DA:2 I'm holding out far more hope for the third installment than I am DA:3.

Btw, if you want a great action RPG try Divinity 2:TDKS - 9/10 game for me (just don't play as an archer)
yeah, pretty much this - I cant stand that whole, what is it called? - you know that wheel bioware uses in DA2 instead of the traditional style from dao, the one where you're suppose to pick from "good, goofy and bad".
 

krazykidd

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Sure . Because Jrpgs don't interest you , because of your bias , let's just ignore them ! And here i thought this was going to be an interesting discussion about finding a balance in quality and depth with Rpgs on a whole . So the question basically devolves to , why don't devs makes games youlike , they way youwant them.
 

infinity_turtles

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Phoenixmgs said:
kazann said:
Honestly, the last good RPG i played was DAO, it may have been your typical fantasy, elfs orcs rpg thats been done a hundred times, but it was good. However what followed was pathetic, DA2 and mass effect 2 were disappointments and hardly RPGs.

Deus EX:HR was good, but even that was so incredibly shallow in comparison to the original, is it because they're trying to make the games more accessible? are the old school RPGS too niche?
What determines a RPG is what you can do outside of combat, and fucking half of Mass Effect 2 is making choice after choice shaping your Shepard into his/her own character.
I'm going to say this is the part of your post I disagree with most. Shepard doesn't turn into a different character so much as you choose whether Shepard is currently a dick or not at various points. The character is for the most part set. It's perhaps closer to an RPG then, say, Call of Duty, but unless you want to call Visual Novels role-playing games, then ME isn't really defined all that much by role-playing. In both cases there's a set character with a few choices and often the character's reasons for taking a specific choice are sometimes decided for you. Visual Novels probably win on meaningful choices too, what with the branching paths and all. I was actually half-joking when I started this comparison, but now that i think about it VNs probably have an advantage when it comes to role-playing over ME... "Cherry Tree High Comedy Club! More meaningful choices then Mass Effect" ohgodneedtostoplaughing
 

The_Echo

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kazann said:
What happened with RPGs? Are we going to sit and pretend that RPGs today are as good as BG, PST or deus ex?
Oh, we're talking about WRPGs.

I was confused, because last time I checked JRPGs are still running at full force.

And frankly, maybe it's just because I missed the scene, but I never knew WRPGs to be all that huge in the first place.
 

joest01

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Apr 15, 2009
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lol, if I played every quality JRPG that I havent played (and still comes out) for the PSP I would have to find a cave and never come out for a year or two. The DS has Persona and Fire Emblem. There are a number of RPG coming out for the Vita.

So, on handhelds at least we're good, ya?

As for console releases? I guess they suck a little. An occasional Gem like Valkyria Chronicles or Resonsnace of Fate but otherwise darkness.

But you were talking about that other kind, right? That weird amalgam of action game and D&D. The "western" RPG. I for one have never enjoyed one except Demon's Souls (made in Japan, I know, but a wRPG no less) and Dark Souls to a lesser extent. So I am not a good judge there.

as you were.
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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Anyone who says JRPGs are in decline clearly hasnt played Tales of The Abyss, Tales of Vesperia, Tales of Graces or Tales of Xillia.

Xillia has even managed to add in some features to make it more accessible without compromising its nature. Xillia 2 is likely to be even better.
 

Drummodino

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Jan 2, 2011
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Ok firstly you're complaining about WRPGs, not RPGs in general. I can concede that yes there are not that many good WRPGs these days. IMHO Skyrim, Fallout 3 and especially Fallout:NV are the only really good WRPGs of the past few years. Mass Effect doesn't feel like an RPG to me, more like a good 3rd person shooter with a strong emphasis on story. I haven't played Dragon Age or The Witcher so I can't comment there.

But JRPGs are still going strong. So you can't complain about the state of RPGs in general if you fail to consider those games, you can only say WRPGs haven't been up to standard lately.
 

seditary

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Aug 17, 2008
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Hell even Might and Magic X is a thing.

Plus your taste precludes what is possibly the largest section of the RPG market right now.

Its all you. Not the games.
 

AngryBritishAce

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Phoenixmgs said:
Mass Effect 2 and 3 are more RPGs than 99.9% of RPGs out there, past or present. I really hate when people say ME2 and ME3 aren't RPGs because people just don't understand what an RPG is. RPGs are all about the role-playing, it's what separates them from other genres. You can have any kind of battle system in an RPG because RPGs have no gameplay requirements whatsoever. ME2's battle system is a TPS for example, Deus Ex's battle system is a FPS, the Tales series is a hack and slash, and many have turn-based combat. What determines a RPG is what you can do outside of combat, and fucking half of Mass Effect 2 is making choice after choice shaping your Shepard into his/her own character. If that's not a fucking RPG, then I don't know what the fuck is. As you can see, it greatly annoys me when people say Mass Effect is not an RPG and it's instead a Shooter with RPG elements or something of the sort. Literally, one mission in Mass Effect has more role-playing than the entirety of the whole Final Fantasy series, yet Final Fantasy is 100% RPG and Mass Effect is a shooter...
^^ This. If an RPG requires the players to constantly think about numbers and the combat mechanics, you're not roleplaying, you're simply playing a game. Not to say I don't enjoy that style of gameplay; I enjoy tactical combat and moving around my characters to fulfill different roles like in games such as DA:O. But when you put that in front of immersion, story telling and getting into your character, then it's not roleplaying.