The "Male Power Fantasy": what do women generally and actually find sexy?

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Body extremes can and will always exist in the real world but think of it this way, How many types of male bodies are there in gaming compared to women. The amount of male body types compared to women gaming types are higher compared to women. Do you honestly think that just because people can cosplay one of the extremes that the extremes exist in a significant amount in the real world.

You apparently don't know about the existence of a bell curve. Women on both extremes will exist but I don't think every women are a or d cups.

I will admit my error with the game's name and perhaps I should have used a different example (Makoto from blazblue might work, seriously that underboob).

I still think you miss the point though, media can and will have sexualized characters but the majority of the world is not full of sexualized charcters so for the sake of better stories, a bit less fanservice would be nice.

It's not "body extremes". It's absolutely healthy human bodies + wings. If you want to see "body extremes", maybe you should see the other Darkstalkers characters.

Also, I'll just post it here:

They obviously chose the best one, which was a hugely successful business decision. One of these great decisions that made Capcom so big in the 1990s.

But hey, it's 2014 and a succubus can't be "extremely forward and sexual". It's "problematic" now. We urgently need some nice, well-bahaved, "real middle or realistic ground" succubis in video games, not some dirty sluts like that.

I don't recall advocating the removal of hyper-sexual characters but I do advocate the increased production of middle ground and realistic characters, maybe the middle ground charcters should not be succubi/demons since they were since antiquity depicted over the top but if your character is human, either don't make all of them big breasted 14 year olds (looking at you Senran Kagura) or women with breasts the size of watermelons.

In other, less articulate words, DON'T GIVE ME A BONER OVER THINGS THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I don't recall advocating the removal of hyper-sexual characters but I do advocate the increased production of middle ground and realistic characters, maybe the middle ground charcters should not be succubi/demons since they were since antiquity depicted over the top but if your character is human, either don't make all of them big breasted 14 year olds (looking at you Senran Kagura) or women with breasts the size of watermelons.

In other, less articulate words, DON'T GIVE ME A BONER OVER THINGS THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

Could you point me to "middle ground and realistic characters" in Darkstalkers?

Maybe besides Anita (if you'd call it "realistic" - and yeah, she's got her breasts "too small" too):

http://www.game-art-hq.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Small_She_Devil-anita-darkstalkers-game-character-fan-art-by_2dforever.jpg

And how do you imagine a visually appealing and charismatic but "middle ground and realistic" player character of any kind in an extremely exaggerated cartoonish style video game where a mummy looks like that?

Also, are you sure your idea would be more successful with people (not even even Darkstalkers fans, she's actually more popular and famous than games are) than Morrigan is, and why?

"Morrigan from Darksiders" was the example that you chose yoursef, adding she's especially "problematic".

Perhaps my idea wouldn't be popular but I do think we need to have some sort of middle ground in terms of characters for the sake of stories in games. But I suppose an extremely cartoony or stylized game does have some flexibility in how both genders are portrayed so I will concede the point to you.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Perhaps my idea wouldn't be popular but I do think we need to have some sort of middle ground in terms of characters for the sake of stories in games.

Than thanks god you're not a Capcom executive, or they would go bankrupt long ago and not only now.

Including after someone gave them with retarded idea to try to change their games like Resident Evil to make them supposedly more "for Western audiences", and how the Western media panic (including at The Escapist) over RAMPANT SEXISM IN THE INDUSTRY LOOK HOW THEY HATE FEMALE PROTAGONISTS made them take and publish Remember Me and promptly lose a lot of money over what was actually a bad game all that time (and which was the true reason nobody wanted to publish it).

Bad games and the need to have better female characters can occur exclusively of each other and while I do admit that remember me is bad, having more female protagonists would be nice.

 

[Darkmantle]

I don't recall advocating the removal of hyper-sexual characters but I do advocate the increased production of middle ground and realistic characters, maybe the middle ground charcters should not be succubi/demons since they were since antiquity depicted over the top but if your character is human, either don't make all of them big breasted 14 year olds (looking at you Senran Kagura) or women with breasts the size of watermelons.

In other, less articulate words, DON'T GIVE ME A BONER OVER THINGS THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

You're not explicitly saying that, but many who hold your same opinion, and perhaps you yourself, attack every stylized/exaggerated portrayal that happens. Even if examples of "middle of the road realistic" design co-exist with "hypersexualized terrible" designs, people will conveniently ignore the positive examples and just focus on the "negative" and use them to say that teh vidjagame industry is sexist.

And you know what, if your exception to mythological creatures is not shared by most. See all the shit SMITE gets in too. "Aphrodite is too sexualized, gross" ... Aphrodite. Of all fucking mytholgical characters, Aphrodite is too sexualized. lol

This is why I can't take the "I'm not trying to remove ALL over exaggerated characters" defense as Genuine. It seems to me it's used and forgotten about when ever it is convenient,

 

[Ikasury]

strong shoulders and thighs... something about the stretch of those muscles is primatively sexy... but not the overly done washboard stuff, that's all way too fake to me to be attractive... its rather boring really or grotesque in its over indulgence of 'look at me and my over-pecks' -.-

or the guys are disgustingly skinny... or skinny with muscle packed on, no meat... nothing fluffy huggles and sleep on... just rock hard abs... that's fine and i guess for most women, but that's not practical in the long run .-.

then again i'm less attracted to the physical and more to the mental/emotional/spiritual/intellectual... a personality that makes them who they are and why over what they look like... as a quote i love from a story i read, "you don't love her because she's beautiful, she's beautiful because you love her" while being told to a male character about the woman he loved, i still feel it applies to everyone, me included...

plus snark and badass never hurt... or put a guy in nothing but an apron, that's cute~ :3

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I don't recall advocating the removal of hyper-sexual characters but I do advocate the increased production of middle ground and realistic characters, maybe the middle ground charcters should not be succubi/demons since they were since antiquity depicted over the top but if your character is human, either don't make all of them big breasted 14 year olds (looking at you Senran Kagura) or women with breasts the size of watermelons.

In other, less articulate words, DON'T GIVE ME A BONER OVER THINGS THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

You're not explicitly saying that, but many who hold your same opinion, and perhaps you yourself, attack every stylized/exaggerated portrayal that happens. Even if examples of "middle of the road realistic" design co-exist with "hypersexualized terrible" designs, people will conveniently ignore the positive examples and just focus on the "negative" and use them to say that teh vidjagame industry is sexist.

And you know what, if your exception to mythological creatures is not shared by most. See all the shit SMITE gets in too. "Aphrodite is too sexualized, gross" ... Aphrodite. Of all fucking mytholgical characters, Aphrodite is too sexualized. lol

This is why I can't take the "I'm not trying to remove ALL over exaggerated characters" defense as Genuine. It seems to me it's used and forgotten about when ever it is convenient,

Let's make one thing clear, I'm an anime fan so I have to deal with designs and the like even more insane than Dragon's Crown (Yoko is 14 for god's sake, 14). I actually like big tits and a nice ass, hell if i had to bring up that dreaded word "waifu", mine's is Kozuki Kallen who for reference looks like this

Spoiler

Basically, I'm not a prude, I like all the things men like as much as the next one and I also am a person who took Latin classes and am versed in Greek Myth so the Aphrodite thing is ridiculous.

I am however sick and tired of being treated like a preteen boy whose hormones have gone wild. I don't want to be pandered to anymore with just TnA, I want the TnA to at least have some sort of character or personality besides "hot chick". Barring that, at least give me designs that don't make me smack my head at how absurd they are as often (seriously, the proportions in Senren Kagura are off to say the least).

As for the "ignore the good and emphasize the bad", sadly, that is part of human nature. We love to exaggerate how bad things are at times

Edit:

Let me show you what I don't want

This is from a show called Eiken, and it is just the epitome of what I really don't like: being pandered to with a body that will never happen and probably is worse than it seems

 

[Talshere]

I'm a woman who swings both ways and I can honestly, hand on heart say that I'm not overly fussy when it comes to physique for men or women so long as they're healthy.

Now that's out of the way... objectification. You have to realise it's about so much more than just body shape: it's about how they're posed/shot (the camera gratuitously lingering on Miranda's ass in Mass Effect 2 and 3), the character's motivations and reasons for existing (for example, female characters are often the token love interest - they only exist so the male lead can get some). The differences between how male and female superheroes are posed in comics is really striking. Honestly you'd have to be blind not to see it.

Ever heard of the Hawkeye Initiative? It's a project where people take artwork of female characters and then draw a male superhero (usually Hawkeye) in the same pose. It really highlights how blatant and ridiculous the whole situation it. Check it out.

Im not arguing but I generally have an issue with the halkeye project for two reasons.

Firstly, clothing. A lot of the men look daft simply because men dont wear cloths like that. While Im not arguing that a bikini is a valid choice for amour, women do actually wear clothes in the style they have in comics.

Spoiler: Clothes differences

Clothes differences

Yes, the proportions here have been exaggerated but women actually wear this. Since men dont, half the stupidity of the resulting image is simply because men dont wear bikinis, women do. Men dont wear jean short shorts with a tank top. Women do. That last image of Hawkeye would be fine if he was in his normal skin tight spandex. It just looks dumb because he as been drawn is something men never wear except when imitating Borat.


Secondly is the shape. Often, the other half of the stupidity in the image is because its a shape men dont or cant make with the bodies. We dont bend like that.

Spoiler: This stance looks fine because its proportioned properly, only the kinked foot looks unnatural. Actually, this is a close approximation of the stance is taken by horse archers when they are firing backwards

This stance looks fine because its proportioned properly, only the kinked foot looks unnatural. Actually, this a close approximation of the stance is taken by horse archers when they are firing backwards

Spoiler: Here is working proof women can stand and look like this, next to a hawkeye project image of a man that has been distorted to a none man shape but otherwise looks fine

Here is working proof women can stand and look like this, next to a hawkeye project image of a man that has been distorted to a none man shape but otherwise looks fine.

Yes, comics and games often distort the proportions of those involved but some women do have hour glass shapes. The hawkeye project, however, proves nothing. If anything it hurts the cause because, due to the way its done, as I have just done, is easily dismiss-able.

 

[Talshere]

And I'm still intersted in the question is Morrigan a "Female Power Fantasy".

I always thing Bayonetta is one of the best examples because it completely polarizes both men and women on whether its objectification or female power fantasy.

 

[Vault101]

Yes, comics and games often distort the proportions of those involved but some women do have hour glass shapes. The hawkeye project, however, proves nothing. If anything it hurts the cause because, due to the way its done, as I have just done, is easily dismiss-able.

I don't belive your points dismiss the argument

also women generally don't wear bikins when theyre doing anything physically intensive...and no I mean "bikinis" and not "sport" style stuff you might find in beach sports, and thats not even mentioning combat, I mean come on at least Lara croft wears pants!

 

[Talshere]

Yes, comics and games often distort the proportions of those involved but some women do have hour glass shapes. The hawkeye project, however, proves nothing. If anything it hurts the cause because, due to the way its done, as I have just done, is easily dismiss-able.

I don't belive your points dismiss the argument

also women generally don't wear bikins when theyre doing anything physically intensive...and no I mean "bikinis" and not "sport" style stuff you might find in beach sports, and thats not even mentioning combat, I mean come on at least Lara croft wears pants!

It harms the argument enough as to render its impact lessened to the point of dismiss-ability.

Like I said, Im not arguing that a bikini is a valid choice of armour. Simply that the Hawkeye project fails to address the actual issue because the principal humour from those images comes from putting men in postures men dont or cant make and clothes they never wear. One is biological limitation the other is a social norm. Sadly I cant provide a good example of women looking equally ridiculous in something men wear because I cant think of a single item of clothing that men wear that women dont. A woman in a suit and tie looks a little odd but it generally depends on the woman and the suit. A man in a suit can look odd if he picks a poor suit.

 

[Lilani]

...Yes, comics and games often distort the proportions of those involved but some women do have hour glass shapes. The hawkeye project, however, proves nothing. If anything it hurts the cause because, due to the way its done, as I have just done, is easily dismiss-able.

Oh, you found a few women who dress and pose like those comic characters. Yes, that totally validates them as being accurate representations of most women.

So, because Ru Paul is a man and often dresses like a woman, that validates any comic which has exaggerated drag queen characters as being accurate representations of most men, right?

 

[Talshere]

...Yes, comics and games often distort the proportions of those involved but some women do have hour glass shapes. The hawkeye project, however, proves nothing. If anything it hurts the cause because, due to the way its done, as I have just done, is easily dismiss-able.

Oh, you found a few women who dress and pose like those comic characters. Yes, that totally validates them as being accurate representations of most women.

So, because Ru Paul is a man and often dresses like a woman, that validates any comic which has exaggerated drag queen characters as being accurate representations of most men, right?

Like the previous person, you are taking my comment and its specific target and taking it out of context to attack the point.

I am not saying that a bikini is a valid choice for armour. Or that the stances they put them in in some cases isnt stupid.

I am specifically stating that the Hawkeye project in its current format is not a valid example of illustrating objectification. It is humourous but not objective.

It takes female body characteristics and applies them to men, then dresses men in clothes men never wear. I remember years ago, maybe even on this site having an discussing about people like Trinity from The Matrix in their posters being objectification because of the spandex. Now we have a raft of male superhero films with men in spandex and suddenly noone mentions it anymore.

Spoiler: Male spandex

Then the classic was, "oh look the woman has her back turn looking over her shoulder". I remember the fun redrawn poster from the Avengers of the men standing like the women do. That dont out the window now too. Because we have man superheros standing like that and it doesnt look stupid because funnily enough, when you dont given men an arse like no man has ever had, with a waist like no man has ever had. Suddenly, it looks fine.

Spoiler

The point is, in 99% of the Hawkeye project pictures. If you give the man actual male proportions then dress them in skin tight spandex rather than a bikini they look fine. They just look like your run of the mill over sexualised perfect humans.

Be definition then. This is not actually tackling the problem.

 

[DementedSheep]

objectification is when you treat a person like, or reduce a person to, an object (hence the term). But I promise you, that if Bowser had stolen Mario's wrist watch, he wouldn't have braved those 8 levels to hunt it down. If Ganondorf had captured Link's Pocket change, he wouldn't have charged into untold numbers of dungeons to get it back. Objects are easily replaceable, and often expendable.

the point is it doesnt(sic) matter who Peach is....she only exists purley(sic) as a motivator for Mario...change it to a watch it would be exactly the same, peach herself adds nothing

ot(sic) female charachters(sic) getting killed so the male ones can go in a rage

or female charachters(sic) existing to further the charachter(sic) developemnt(sic) on the male ones...that kind of thing

The problem is that can be said of a ton of characters and story conventions.

It doesn't matter who Bowser is, he exists only as an antagonist for Mario to beat, change it to a different antagonist (see SMB2) and what changes? Bowser himself adds nothing.

It doesn't matter who the koopa's are, they serve only as an obstacle to be overcome, no different than a pit or wall. Change it to a different thing (say "shy guys") and what changes?

This is not a strong enough reason for me to believe that it's devaluing women as a whole, or even the character of Princess Peach. As I said before, change it to a watch and Mario would just buy a new one, not go after it.

I don't understand your metric for good character, many characters no one has any complaitnts about serve primarily to further the character development of the protagonist. Obi-wan's death. Yoda's training. Those 2 characters served little more than character development enablers for Luke. I fail to see this as a gendered issue, it's ubiquitous in story telling.

Notice how they both Obi-wan and Ypda are both mentor character? they taught the main, they are shown as bad-asses in their own right and have past deeds to their name. They are also never dangled screaming, crying and helpless in front of you. There things to actually respect there as oppose to have little shown worth beyond the fact the main guy "loves them" (often because naive and sweet. Yuck) or their bloodline. Not to mention is it evened out by the fact the hero and the villain in 90% of shit is male. This is not the role men get almost excursively.
The villain has power and agency. They have an effect on the world though their own actions and wants even a simplistic villain like Browser. Again there actually something to respect there. Even mooks at least do something and are a presence. They probably the character type your going to seem most of. The DiD is characterized by their lack of power and agency and they cause problems not because of any actions of their own but simply because they are helpless. They aren't really anything. Might as well be a pile of gold.
Even when you gets dads as the dead parent for the main the mains are often motivated by following in their footsteps, living up to their reputation or their bravery rather than just being hurt by their death. Male victims to rescue when you get them tend to be scientists so again at least they did something to effect the situation and you have reason to save them that has something to do with their ability but if it's a women it's often sufficient for her to simply be a victim.

I personally would love more female villains even ones like browser (provided they not of the "offers her vag to men to get them to do shit" variety) and mooks. I'm sick of women just plain not being there at all outside of maybe a few secondary characters or having some excuse to not be there. Even when you do get "strong" female often there are only a few of them with women entirely absent from any of the general people you fight with or against, they have to be shown to "vulnerable" at some point and often they aren't useless because of their father or a father figure (daddy wanted a boy being the most annoying) and never their mother. I seriously don't think I ever even seen the reverse of that. Even it books written by women it seems you can't get more than a few competent women treated as outliers with everyone else being male.

 

[Talshere]

Snip

I always thing a lot of the problems are the predominant genres.

If its a modern combat FPS, women present on the front line is factually incorrect. Most nations still ban women on the front line.

If its historical. Women in positions of power by anything but proxy is again a-historical.

Since these two things constitute a large proportion of games atm, it generates a significant proportion if not majority of games where women are potentially actively immersion breaking.

I think this may be a critique of the type of games currently make than anything. Many games are "presumed male". For example most racing games drivers are presumed male but we never actually see anyone. Need For Speed or Burnout for example.

I think using Mario is a little unfair really. It does annoy me when people fall back to that as an example. The series started in the 80's for christ sake. Of course its a damning example. The entire 80's is a general and complete damning example of humanity. I realise they still make to this model but seriously? You want Nintendo to **** with a multi BILLION dollar series and concept. What incentives could you EVER provide to cause them to upset the apple cart to risk, again, a multi BILLION dollar franchise. They will retire Mario before the screw with it.

If your guna attack the poor quality of female protagonist, antagonists, and objectives. At least go after a modern example. Preferably one that wasnt in a game that was universally slated and panned.

 

[DementedSheep]

Snip

I always thing a lot of the problems are the predominant genres.

If its a modern combat FPS, women present on the front line is factually incorrect. Most nations still ban women on the front line.

If its historical. Women in positions of power by anything but proxy is again a-historical.

Since these two things constitute a large proportion of games atm, it generates a significant proportion if not majority of games where women are potentially actively immersion breaking.

I think this may be a critique of the type of games currently make than anything. Many games are "presumed male". For example most racing games drivers are presumed male but we never actually see anyone. Need For Speed or Burnout for example.

I think using Mario is a little unfair really. It does annoy me when people fall back to that as an example. The series started in the 80's for christ sake. Of course its a damning example. The entire 80's is a general and complete damning example of humanity. I realise they still make to this model but seriously? You want Nintendo to **** with a multi BILLION dollar series and concept. What incentives could you EVER provide to cause them to upset the apple cart to risk, again, a multi BILLION dollar franchise. They will retire Mario before the screw with it.

If your guna attack the poor quality of female protagonist, antagonists, and objectives. At least go after a modern example. Preferably one that wasn't in a game that was universally slated and panned.

I wasn't attacking mario. I only used browser as an example because Darkmantle did. I was trying to explain the difference between having a mentor, villain or mook and someone who is just victimised.