The Man with Boobs Trope

[Burnouts3s3]

I keep hearing this criticism, but I don?t understand it, or rather, don?t understand the negativity towards it. The ?Man with Boobs? trope, as I understand so far, is the criticism that by making action girls, female characters who do running, jumping, shooting, punching, kicking, etc., is de-emphasizing the woman?s feminine traits and instead replacing their positive values with traditionally held as masculine. For example, FemShep from Mass Effect or Sargent Calhoun from Wreck-it Ralph or Samantha Burns from Gears of War 3 (which to be honest, I haven?t played).

But where this confuses me is how it?s necessarily a bad thing. If for the sake of argument I agree that emphasis on physical activity and violence is inherently or held as masculine instead of gender-neutral, I don?t necessarily understand why it?s a bad thing. I thought the breaking of traditional gender roles that associated ?male = strong? and ?female = weak? was a good thing to be had. If I did focus a little harder on this subject, I guess the argument could be made that associating feminine traits with weakness is bad, but I don?t understand where?s the harm with making a girl being one of the boys is a bad thing. I think it?s also harder in a genre such as action or adventure or fighting to disassociate since in those genres fighting is the positively-held value, if only for visual merit.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Vegosiux]

My thoughts?

"Oh for crying out loud, you've succeeded it making me simply not care about anything other than what's fun to me as far as the entertainment industry is concerned."

Oh and by the way, I totally love a refined and elegant female character who also kicks ass.

 

[Phasmal]

When was the last time you actually heard this criticism?

I keep hearing about criticism of criticism without actually hearing any criticism in the first place.

Anyway, I don't particularly give much of a fuck about the `Man with Boobs` thing, because I'm pretty sure if you described my personality and hobbies to a third party without mentioning my gender, they would think I was a boy. And I'm kinda fine with that.

Though it's legit if they're talking about a female character just being pasted over the male one (i.e. Femshep's Bro-walk).

 

[Erttheking]

When was the last time you actually heard this criticism?

I keep hearing about criticism of criticism without actually hearing any criticism in the first place.

Anyway, I don't particularly give much of a fuck about the `Man with Boobs` thing, because I'm pretty sure if you described my personality and hobbies to a third party without mentioning my gender, they would think I was a boy. And I'm kinda fine with that.

Though it's legit if they're talking about a female character just being pasted over the male one (i.e. Femshep's Bro-walk).

Kind of have to agree with Phasmal on this one. When was the last time you actually heard someone criticize a character this way? Because the only person I've ever even hear use this term is Anita. And if that's where you're getting this from, I'm pretty baffled that we still care so much about what she thinks.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about this trope as a whole it's not bad by itself. It can some times come off as lazy. That the people writing/designing the character didn't put enough effort into the female version for them to really look female. Like how femshep uses male shep's animations and doesn't know how to sit in a skirt. Then the fact that it's never men who are made from female bases and animations more just goes to highlight the big problem.

Then on the other hand. I have mused that femshep using male shep's animations gives her a little bit of character that male shep doesn't have. She is a woman who sits like a man. She kind of goes counter to what you might expect from a woman. It gives her a little big of accidental characterization.

Now on my other other had. (My third hand.) If you went into a game with a female character expecting them to be female and found that they used the same walk animation as the guy character, you might feel cheated by that. Like your choice of gender didn't warrant the creation if a proper walk animation. You never see male characters with female walk animations because the game was to didn't want to give them their own animation.

So sum up. Kind of highlights the bigger problem, but I don't think it's the worst trope in the gender dynamics index. It's better to have men with boobs then no women at all.

Edit: Is it just me or dose the term man with boobs sound a little offensive?

 

[Erttheking]

I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about this trope as a whole it's not bad by itself. It can some times come off as lazy. That the people writing/designing the character didn't put enough effort into the female version for them to really look female. Like how femshep uses male shep's animations and doesn't know how to sit in a skirt. Then the fact that it's never men who are made from female bases and animations more just goes to highlight the big problem.

Then on the other hand. I have mused that femshep using male shep's animations gives her a little bit of character that male shep doesn't have. She is a woman who sits like a man. She kind of goes counter to what you might expect from a woman. It gives her a little big of accidental characterization.

Now on my other other had. (My third hand.) If you went into a game with a female character expecting them to be female and found that they used the same walk animation as the guy character, you might feel cheated by that. Like your choice of gender didn't warrant the creation if a proper walk animation. You never see male characters with female walk animations because the game was to didn't want to give them their own animation.

So sum up. Kind of highlights the bigger problem, but I don't think it's the worst trope in the gender dynamics index. It's better to have men with boobs then no women at all.

Edit: Is it just me or dose the term man with boobs sound a little offensive?

I feel like I'd be ok with a female character sitting and walking like a man if all the other female characters didn't do the same. It'd feel like a character trait and stick out more if she did. Then again, you have a point in that it makes the gender select feel a bit invalid. It makes me wish more game devs took the Saints Row 2 route. There are actually several different walking and running animations in that game. You want to make a man walk in a feminine manner or a woman run in a masculine manner? Knock your socks off! I wish more games did that. Sunset overdrive seems to have that mindset going on with all the clothing being wearable by men and women, but somehow I doubt that they'd have customizable walk animations.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about this trope as a whole it's not bad by itself. It can some times come off as lazy. That the people writing/designing the character didn't put enough effort into the female version for them to really look female. Like how femshep uses male shep's animations and doesn't know how to sit in a skirt. Then the fact that it's never men who are made from female bases and animations more just goes to highlight the big problem.

Then on the other hand. I have mused that femshep using male shep's animations gives her a little bit of character that male shep doesn't have. She is a woman who sits like a man. She kind of goes counter to what you might expect from a woman. It gives her a little big of accidental characterization.

Now on my other other had. (My third hand.) If you went into a game with a female character expecting them to be female and found that they used the same walk animation as the guy character, you might feel cheated by that. Like your choice of gender didn't warrant the creation if a proper walk animation. You never see male characters with female walk animations because the game was to didn't want to give them their own animation.

So sum up. Kind of highlights the bigger problem, but I don't think it's the worst trope in the gender dynamics index. It's better to have men with boobs then no women at all.

Edit: Is it just me or dose the term man with boobs sound a little offensive?

I feel like I'd be ok with a female character sitting and walking like a man if all the other female characters didn't do the same. It'd feel like a character trait and stick out more if she did. Then again, you have a point in that it makes the gender select feel a bit invalid. It makes me wish more game devs took the Saints Row 2 route. There are actually several different walking and running animations in that game. You want to make a man walk in a feminine manner or a woman run in a masculine manner? Knock your socks off! I wish more games did that. Sunset overdrive seems to have that mindset going on with all the clothing being wearable by men and women, but somehow I doubt that they'd have customizable walk animations.

I always wish more games would go the saints row 2 route. I just love the customization in that game. It sex slider, not a toggle, a slider. No other game has that. Though there is something to note about the walk animations. They were only walk animations not full animation sets. The game had two sets run animations male and females, but a bug would cause you to default to the male one. (I think on loading, but I don't recall exactly what triggered it.)

Maybe sunset overdrive will have multiple movement sets. We still don't know a lot about it. They do have a thing about customization and movement, so who knows.

 

[Henkie36]

I actually agreed with MovieBob on Sgt. Calhoun from Wreck-It Ralph. She was tough as nails, but still decidedely female. I felt in that case, they made it play out as ''she's a lady, just deal with it''. That typically is a good approach to writing those kinds of characters. For other characters who got this right, look at Alyx Vance, Mako Mori, early incarnations of Samus, all of the Beifongs, and more recently, Lucy and Maleficient.

But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago. And so did a lot of people, for that matter. Righfully so. But I think the issue is not that they make female characters overly manly, the issue is just bad writing in general. Like I said, there are plenty of good examples of the tough girl, and their numbers are gradually increasing. Let's take Pacific Rim as an example. Mako Mori is probably one of the best characters in that movie, and it flows completely naturally with the rest of the story. Her presence feels organic, and not forced so they can have a female character in a typically male-dominated part of society. Same goes for every character I just listed and plenty more.

That is the core of the problem. Not that we inherently associate male=good and female=bad, but that a lot of incarnations of the tough girl archetype feel very forced. My advice? Don't change the archetype, change the writing they come with.

 

[Vegosiux]

Well like the others have said, I haven't actually heard this argument made by anyone. That said, if I had to take a tab at the rationale behind it, I'd assume that it'd be the implication that femininity is a negative trait, one that has to be ignored or abandoned to be a strong female character. Femshep could be an example, Alyx Vance perhaps being a counter to it.

But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

I can say I have heard the argument made, several times. I can't remember when or where, I am in a lot of internet places. But I have seen it. It might even have been on Escapist a handful of times.

So you can either accept that my experiences are different from yours, or call me a liar I suppose.

 

[brtt150]

Okay, developers not making unique animations for females is NOT the point of this supposed trope. The point is that developers are taking female characters and giving them traditionally masculine roles. No feminist worth a grain of salt actually believes that bs. The idea of the trope is actively reinforcing gender roles, which you know, actual feminists don't like.

 

[Lieju]

The problem with this trope is if she is more an ideal woman seen through a male lense than an actual character.

Or lazy writing where 'female' is the extent of character.

In the previous case she is just 'one of the guys' but one who is hot and sexualized and will have sex with you. And has no life out of men, no female friends for example.

In the latter you have different characters, and her only defining characteristic is that she's a woman.

Both are bad writing.

It depends on your society, but think how being a female affects her, and how this comes across in the world.
For example, if you claim that they live in a futuristic society where men and women are just treated the same, make sure they are. And for example don't make the female uniform sexualized (if the male one isn't), or have both male and female strippers if you put them in the setting etc.

If you create a world, or depict a world where women are not treated the same, why would she simply be the same as a male character?
If she is the only woman in the cast (of a crew on a ship for example), that says something about the world, and you should either actually acknowledge it, or not write the story like that in the first place.

 

[Isra]

Why do we need to make these traits gender specific when they're obviously not? These boundaries have been falling apart for a long time but the language hasn't kept up.

I just don't see the words 'masculine' and 'feminine' being relevant anymore except for people still holding onto dead ideas. We're equals and we can be what we want to be in life, that's all I give a shit about.

 

[Vegosiux]

Well like the others have said, I haven't actually heard this argument made by anyone. That said, if I had to take a tab at the rationale behind it, I'd assume that it'd be the implication that femininity is a negative trait, one that has to be ignored or abandoned to be a strong female character. Femshep could be an example, Alyx Vance perhaps being a counter to it.

But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

I can say I have heard the argument made, several times. I can't remember when or where, I am in a lot of internet places. But I have seen it. It might even have been on Escapist a handful of times.

So you can either accept that my experiences are different from yours, or call me a liar I suppose.

If there's one thing you can take away from the internet it's that most people on it are full of shit. You may be that beautiful exception to the rule, but isn't it make more sense to assume you aren't until proven otherwise, wouldn't you say?

Sure thing. But then don't be offended if I reverse that assumption back at you. Just remember, if you say that something never happens, all I have to do is provide one (1) example to prove you're "full of shit".

So, do you actually want to argue an absolute negative?

 

[Lightknight]

Sometimes I just want to knit the bad guys away. I mean, punching and shooting may be easy, but I just know if I took up pastry making that I'd finally beat that boss. [/joke]

Joking aside, what sort of feminine traits would people replace these actions with instead? How would that not serve to just further gender role casting?

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

I don't see why writing a female character the same way you write a male one except they just happen to be female would be a problem. For a lot of characters (and people in the real world) their sex isn't a very defining aspect of them. You can write a character in gender-neutral fashion and then stick whatever gender you want on them, an example of this would be the film Alien. You can do the same thing with race, sexuality, gender, whatever. A character being female, gay, trans* or black doesn't have to be any more important than them being male, straight, cisgendered or white.

 

[Something Amyss]

When was the last time you actually heard this criticism?

I keep hearing about criticism of criticism without actually hearing any criticism in the first place.

I'm not sure I've ever heard it uttered except when someone was complaining about it existing.

There's sort of a larger trend out there that everything feminine is still bad and the only way to make girls good is to make them like they boys, because boys things are good and girls things have cooties or whatever, but that's not really this "trope."

It makes me curious, though, where the examples are. Was Lara Croft a "dude with tits?" Samus? Bayonetta? I'm quickly running out of titular characters who are women an action-y, so I'll leave it there.

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago.

McCoffey already explained that you got it backwards, but I'd like to see some of these extreme feminists.

or have both male and female strippers if you put them in the setting etc.

Male strippers? We can't even have a straight female protagonist kiss a dude without "Alienating men." How is that one gonna fly?

Outside of say, a Saints Row game. Because I could totally see Volition doing it.

 

[lacktheknack]

We're not talking about Bob from Fight Club? Oh. Awwww.

I thought that "Men With Boobs" was a bit of an end-goal. Obviously, it would be better if activities didn't instantly cause assumptions of gender, but hey, small steps.