meh.. i liked ME2... but then again i also liked FFVIII.. so my ability to judge quality is questionable at best
The Mass Effect Minority
- Thread starter GuiltBlade
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I liked the story and universe. The gameplay could range from FPS to adventure game for me. But it's true - removing or weakening some RPG aspects in favor of FPS portion was a mistake. But anyway - if you liked ME1 for story and universe, you'll like ME2.
Whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I have to strongly disagree with you. Essentially everything in the game is an improvement from the first (with scanning perhaps being the exception). If this game doesn't have the title for best game of the current console generation, then it is at the very least in the top 5. Mass Effect 2 is a masterpiece.
Except ME2's loading screens are around for much less time than the elevator scenes (even though I never had much hate for those), and aren't blank.GuiltBlade said:
What is your basis for this? That he entered the atmosphere of a planet? I take it you didn't return to that planet via the DLC, since it's a frozen ice world with little or no atmosphere, so he wouldn't have burnt up as much as if he would've entering Earth's atmosphere.GuiltBlade said:
Granted, while there should be an inventory system with more choices of armour and weapons, I prefer ammunitions being "powers". "How is changing your ammunition a power"? Well, in that case, how is throwing a tech grenade (yes, they are grenades, visibly so in ME1) a power?GuiltBlade said:
I agree entirely on the cooldown point, however I never found myself waiting for abilities to recharge. I still prefer the individual cooldowns, though.
The ammo thing is entirely your fault. Why would you WANT to upgrade to the team-based upgrade? It's obvious that it will be overridden, and you'll be VASTLY less versatile. Sure, you could argue "what's the point of level 4 of ammo powers then?", and that would be fair enough. Complaining about a terrible choice YOU made, not so much.
I didn't have much issue with the mining mini-game, since it's easier to only mine Rich planets, and tapping the left trigger is faster and more effective than holding it down. Plus, it beats predetermined, utterly useless finds. Could be better, but it's an improvement.GuiltBlade said:
Equipment, I agree entirely. There should be more, and specifically in the way of team member's armour. However, generic shooter?
Nope. Can't think of another TPS that has customisation or research, etc.
Jack and Miranda (and Grunt, to a lesser extent) are boring, shallow characters. However, calling Kelly, a non-central secondary NPC shallow? What? Since when are secondary, stationary characters NOT shallow? Plus, Thane is interesting, he has a background, history, personality and so forth, more so than Ashley or Kaiden in ME1.GuiltBlade said:
Ok I actually read your entire post and I just don't know where to begin.
To start, I loved ME 1 with a passion and I love ME2 double as much, yes! DOUBLE AS MUCH!
I really felt they improved the game in almost every aspect.
They added better and more mini-games to replace the same minigame over and over from ME1. Also they got rid of the attribute for it so you don't waste precious combat points on it this goes hand in hand with the improved attributes so that there are still overall as many powers you can unlock (plus some new extra powers and one additional power for each of the loyalty missions).
They got rid of the mako and have replaced it with a new mako which hovers and will be used in future DLC content.
They added a new scanning minigame which I really hate. I would have preferred a simple scan button that would automatically mine it for you. It is unrealistic that you have to scan it yourself, not only do you have an entire crew that would normally do such a task you even have an AI that would do such a task! The minigame is neither fun nor does it fit in with the game in terms of realism.
The combat overhaul was a great idea from BioWare. ME1 combat was ok but nothing more. It was just good enough not to ruin the game. ME2 combat really improves the game greatly, universal cooldowns also make sense on top of the seperate skill cool downs, not only does this do wonders for the balancing of combat and combat difficulty it also just makes sense in the ME universe.
I have to say the clips system takes some getting used to but it also is a lot more fun than the really annoying overheat system from ME1. It also adds a certain level of challenge as it forces you to use the right guns for the right task. If it did not have this there would be little reason to switch to the different guns during combat to fight different enemies.
I also like the fact that ammunition upgrades are skills now, it also makes sense as in the game you are enabling a gun mod basically for that ammunition type, this also works wonders for the combat as you now too have to manage your ammunition types mid combat instead of just installing a perma mod that always boosts the damage.
I am really glad they got rid of the inventory system. Not only was it unrealistic to be changing weapons and armor in the middle of a mission, it broke the pacing of the game. Now you can focus on the fun of the combat and just enjoy it without any interruptions at all from the intense and very fun combat. While on the ship you can worry about changing your armors and weapons.
I was a bit sad to see the loading screens as actual loading screens now, I would have greatly preferred in-game things such as the elevator from ME1.
A lot of your other complaints im not going to even get into as I haven't a clue what you are talking about, sure as hell ain't the same ME2 I played...
The dialogue is even better than ME1, the story is by far better, I loved the opening of the story (don't forget you have the armor on too and if anything we know that the armor in Mass Effect is sturdier than it looks).
The moral choices I found to be even more in depth than ME1 and I recently played through all of ME1 again so I can indeed confirm that the moral choices in ME1 were quite a bit simpler than those in ME2. Though it is still just as clear which will earn you renegade and which will earn you paragon. You might not want to just take the option to get paragon in ME2, as these choices carry over in the long term and eventually onto ME3 as a result the moral choices are even harder than in ME1.
Overall ME2 is bigger, better, more fun, more varied, more streamlined, better story, better cinematic feel (by far) and just overall a far better game than ME1 ever was.
To start, I loved ME 1 with a passion and I love ME2 double as much, yes! DOUBLE AS MUCH!
I really felt they improved the game in almost every aspect.
They added better and more mini-games to replace the same minigame over and over from ME1. Also they got rid of the attribute for it so you don't waste precious combat points on it this goes hand in hand with the improved attributes so that there are still overall as many powers you can unlock (plus some new extra powers and one additional power for each of the loyalty missions).
They got rid of the mako and have replaced it with a new mako which hovers and will be used in future DLC content.
They added a new scanning minigame which I really hate. I would have preferred a simple scan button that would automatically mine it for you. It is unrealistic that you have to scan it yourself, not only do you have an entire crew that would normally do such a task you even have an AI that would do such a task! The minigame is neither fun nor does it fit in with the game in terms of realism.
The combat overhaul was a great idea from BioWare. ME1 combat was ok but nothing more. It was just good enough not to ruin the game. ME2 combat really improves the game greatly, universal cooldowns also make sense on top of the seperate skill cool downs, not only does this do wonders for the balancing of combat and combat difficulty it also just makes sense in the ME universe.
I have to say the clips system takes some getting used to but it also is a lot more fun than the really annoying overheat system from ME1. It also adds a certain level of challenge as it forces you to use the right guns for the right task. If it did not have this there would be little reason to switch to the different guns during combat to fight different enemies.
I also like the fact that ammunition upgrades are skills now, it also makes sense as in the game you are enabling a gun mod basically for that ammunition type, this also works wonders for the combat as you now too have to manage your ammunition types mid combat instead of just installing a perma mod that always boosts the damage.
I am really glad they got rid of the inventory system. Not only was it unrealistic to be changing weapons and armor in the middle of a mission, it broke the pacing of the game. Now you can focus on the fun of the combat and just enjoy it without any interruptions at all from the intense and very fun combat. While on the ship you can worry about changing your armors and weapons.
I was a bit sad to see the loading screens as actual loading screens now, I would have greatly preferred in-game things such as the elevator from ME1.
A lot of your other complaints im not going to even get into as I haven't a clue what you are talking about, sure as hell ain't the same ME2 I played...
The dialogue is even better than ME1, the story is by far better, I loved the opening of the story (don't forget you have the armor on too and if anything we know that the armor in Mass Effect is sturdier than it looks).
The moral choices I found to be even more in depth than ME1 and I recently played through all of ME1 again so I can indeed confirm that the moral choices in ME1 were quite a bit simpler than those in ME2. Though it is still just as clear which will earn you renegade and which will earn you paragon. You might not want to just take the option to get paragon in ME2, as these choices carry over in the long term and eventually onto ME3 as a result the moral choices are even harder than in ME1.
Overall ME2 is bigger, better, more fun, more varied, more streamlined, better story, better cinematic feel (by far) and just overall a far better game than ME1 ever was.
First of all, I feel it is necessary to mention that I loved Gears Of War and I love cover based shooters in general (especially TPS's).
Now on to the main subject. I am currently on my 4th ME1 playthrough (did 3 playthroughs with a paragon soldier and I made the same choices every time, don't ask why), playing as a renegade biotic and believe it or not i still enjoy the game. I have done one complete ME2 playthrough (all the upgrades, all the sidequests, all team loyalty missions) and here's what I think:
-I can see why some people (including OP) feel like ME2 doesn't quite feel as a sequel to ME1. It's quite simple. ME2 is related to ME1 in very few ways. The core bonds are still there. The story ties back to ME1 and the characters tie back to ME1. That's where the similarities end.
-ME2 was more of an experiment when it comes to game mechanics. They kept the BioWare trademark story telling and conversation system but traded in the dull combat in ME1 with something that they taught might work with a game such as the ME series. As everyone can see, the opinions on the shooting mechanic are split into "i love it/i hate it because it's gears of war". Yes that is mostly the case. But that's no reason to hate on a generally good game with a great story (yes, some people hate that too).
-There are of course negative aspects of the game as well. Scanning is a ***** until you realize you can just do a couple of hours of it till you pile up enough resources to do all your upgrades (basically you need 200k of each and like 70k of eezo to have enough for all the upgrades the game will throw at you). I am a PC ME player and I have to say I loved the MAKO. There was a certain joy in driving on barren planets, never knowing what I might find next. The ammo system is a byproduct of the experiment I was mentioning earlier. They tried to merge a TPS with the BioWare classic RPG and in a way they succeeded. The inventory was dumped in favor of the loadout screen before each mission. I don't really hate them for it since I hated cleaning my inventory every 2 missions or so in ME1. I used to just sell everything after I applied whatever I needed to my weapons. What i DO hate is the fact that there are close to no weapon choices available. Except the 6 heavy weapons available, having 2 rifles 2 shotguns and some other shit i didn't even bother looking into seriously crippled my game experience. I understand ditching the inventory because of the TPS effect but seriously, did they need to limit people to so few weapons? Everyone loves variety and for all i know, most shooters, TPS' of FPS's, have a wide variety of arsenal to choose from. The armor options where kinda dull too. If it weren't for the DLC armors i dunno what i would have done.
Overall, don't let a few impediments prevent you from playing an overall great game with an even greater story. You could certainly do worse than Mass Effect 2
Now on to the main subject. I am currently on my 4th ME1 playthrough (did 3 playthroughs with a paragon soldier and I made the same choices every time, don't ask why), playing as a renegade biotic and believe it or not i still enjoy the game. I have done one complete ME2 playthrough (all the upgrades, all the sidequests, all team loyalty missions) and here's what I think:
-I can see why some people (including OP) feel like ME2 doesn't quite feel as a sequel to ME1. It's quite simple. ME2 is related to ME1 in very few ways. The core bonds are still there. The story ties back to ME1 and the characters tie back to ME1. That's where the similarities end.
-ME2 was more of an experiment when it comes to game mechanics. They kept the BioWare trademark story telling and conversation system but traded in the dull combat in ME1 with something that they taught might work with a game such as the ME series. As everyone can see, the opinions on the shooting mechanic are split into "i love it/i hate it because it's gears of war". Yes that is mostly the case. But that's no reason to hate on a generally good game with a great story (yes, some people hate that too).
-There are of course negative aspects of the game as well. Scanning is a ***** until you realize you can just do a couple of hours of it till you pile up enough resources to do all your upgrades (basically you need 200k of each and like 70k of eezo to have enough for all the upgrades the game will throw at you). I am a PC ME player and I have to say I loved the MAKO. There was a certain joy in driving on barren planets, never knowing what I might find next. The ammo system is a byproduct of the experiment I was mentioning earlier. They tried to merge a TPS with the BioWare classic RPG and in a way they succeeded. The inventory was dumped in favor of the loadout screen before each mission. I don't really hate them for it since I hated cleaning my inventory every 2 missions or so in ME1. I used to just sell everything after I applied whatever I needed to my weapons. What i DO hate is the fact that there are close to no weapon choices available. Except the 6 heavy weapons available, having 2 rifles 2 shotguns and some other shit i didn't even bother looking into seriously crippled my game experience. I understand ditching the inventory because of the TPS effect but seriously, did they need to limit people to so few weapons? Everyone loves variety and for all i know, most shooters, TPS' of FPS's, have a wide variety of arsenal to choose from. The armor options where kinda dull too. If it weren't for the DLC armors i dunno what i would have done.
Overall, don't let a few impediments prevent you from playing an overall great game with an even greater story. You could certainly do worse than Mass Effect 2
I actually really liked both games sure they both had their flaws and the stories weren't the most unique, but honestly I felt that ME2 was an improvement. Though the mining game is extreamly boring, but if up load the save of a lvl 60 character from ME1 than you start off the game with a decent supply. I did also miss the Mako, I don't know I had fun driving up near vertical surfaces. Finally the game could have used some more armor options, everything more peices, colors, designs, it wasn't as in depth as the trailers led me to believe. as for the squad mates changing your amo powers I just never give them the ability so I haven't had the problem.
TBH, I prefer the thermal clip system. I used to reloading whenever going into cover, and going back to the original Mass Effect (right before ME2 came out), I kept automatically hitting "R". The old system was a bit too slow/repetitive for my tastes.
The amount of ammo you can carry is more than a little limiting, though, especially if you're playing a long-ranged class like Infiltrator.
I found the planet scanning extremely tedious, even with a mouse.
OP is not alone in hating some of the characters. The only characters I really liked were the ones returning from the original game. Oh, and the "Scientist Salarian" ^_^
I also didn't mind the elevators in the original game (although the one in the Normandy was entirely pointless).
The inventory system in the original was EXTREMELY annoying. They could have at least made identical items stack... Can't say that I prefer the system in ME2, though. IMO, the solution was a little bit of streamlining, not removing the inventory entirely.
Ammo shouldn't have been an activated power either.
IMO, making all power cooldowns global was not the best option, though power spam in the original was a little unbalancing...
I like the modular armor, but some more options would have been nice (and why are all the DLC armor components full helmets?)
I didn't mind the Mako that much in the original.
However, overall I'd say that ME2 is an improvement over the first game, which was already pretty damn excellent.
The amount of ammo you can carry is more than a little limiting, though, especially if you're playing a long-ranged class like Infiltrator.
I found the planet scanning extremely tedious, even with a mouse.
OP is not alone in hating some of the characters. The only characters I really liked were the ones returning from the original game. Oh, and the "Scientist Salarian" ^_^
I also didn't mind the elevators in the original game (although the one in the Normandy was entirely pointless).
The inventory system in the original was EXTREMELY annoying. They could have at least made identical items stack... Can't say that I prefer the system in ME2, though. IMO, the solution was a little bit of streamlining, not removing the inventory entirely.
Ammo shouldn't have been an activated power either.
IMO, making all power cooldowns global was not the best option, though power spam in the original was a little unbalancing...
I like the modular armor, but some more options would have been nice (and why are all the DLC armor components full helmets?)
I didn't mind the Mako that much in the original.
However, overall I'd say that ME2 is an improvement over the first game, which was already pretty damn excellent.
I am forced to disagree with the initial post here. I found ME1 slow to start, harder to get into the character, and it drew me into the story far less... From the emotional beginning (which if you DID get into the first game, is even more so since you probably imported your character and remember all you went through) to the climactic moments throughout the game, I found ME2 riveting, and it made me WANT to play it and NOT STOP... I'm on my third playthrough and enjoying it almost as much as the first time. No game's done that for me since Fallout3. I could not disagree more.
Um, blog it?
This isn't jumping on the bandwagon like MW2 (I truly preferred the first there) I actually said, without reading any reviews or looking at any threads like this, that ME2 was one of the best games I've played. And I did play the first. Not nearly as good. I love how they've streamlined the RPG elements, I hated having bags full of useless kit to waft through.
This isn't jumping on the bandwagon like MW2 (I truly preferred the first there) I actually said, without reading any reviews or looking at any threads like this, that ME2 was one of the best games I've played. And I did play the first. Not nearly as good. I love how they've streamlined the RPG elements, I hated having bags full of useless kit to waft through.
Yeah dude. Same thing with Half Life 2, people only liked it because it was a bandwagon.s69-5 said:
On more related news, ME2 had several changes that I didn't agree with but I just finished my 5th playthrough so I'm over those changes. I don't even choose different options every time I play(except that one time I was renegade)and I still can't get enough of it. It's a cinematic experience as well as a fantastic game. IMO, of course.
I have to say that I really didn't like the first Mass Effect, the driving sections eventually made me stop playing the game because when the thing moved it was difficult to aim the turret, and when it stopped it was destroyed almost instantly. The gameplay was good and it did well as a shooter, but there was never anything that made me really think that it was great. Mass Effect 2 I felt was a more involved game, and although I disliked some of the characters, mainly because of personality not due to bad design, I still always felt they were a key part of the story. The varied endings of the game also seemed to me to be a great idea, especially if the ending that I achieved will affect Mass Effect 3 so much. I think that overall ME2 improved so much on ME, by removing some of the bad parts and adding so much good stuff. I had got the game full expecting to completely dislike it and sell it on, but now find myself on a second play through, hours after finishing my first. No game has ever had that amount of potential for replay to me, not even my favorite RPG KotOR.
The lack of weapons did bother me to a fair degree. As a Sentinel I found myself using the same gun for 90% of the game (The Carnifex handcannon), whereas the Soldier/Vanguard/Infiltrator/Engineer gets to upgrade at least one weapon of his weapons to a 3rd option in the middle of the game (getting a better assault rife, sniper rifle or shotgun) and there is no less than 4 assault rifles to be found even without DLC. It was not that the Carnifex did a bad job or anything, but it felt kind of cheap to not get more options.
My main problem with ME2 is probably that the combat is pretty repetitive and often turns into little more than shooting and getting into cover. Very seldom does the combat require that you actually advance or achieve any objectives while under fire, instead allowing you to gun down all opposition before moving on.
The story also feels somewhat schizophrenic to me. I am supposed to fight the collectors, but I mostly just run around other places to get people to help me. The game feels like one long preparation (25 hours for me before entering the last mission) for this massive adventure... Only to have the suicide mission top out at 2 hours. It definately suffers from "middle part" syndrome, which brings it down somewhat for me. At least it is partially rectified by the fact that all the squad member missions are very well executed.
Still, the game itself is very good. It is just that these rather small problems stand out so much more against the rest of an incredibly well polished game.
My main problem with ME2 is probably that the combat is pretty repetitive and often turns into little more than shooting and getting into cover. Very seldom does the combat require that you actually advance or achieve any objectives while under fire, instead allowing you to gun down all opposition before moving on.
The story also feels somewhat schizophrenic to me. I am supposed to fight the collectors, but I mostly just run around other places to get people to help me. The game feels like one long preparation (25 hours for me before entering the last mission) for this massive adventure... Only to have the suicide mission top out at 2 hours. It definately suffers from "middle part" syndrome, which brings it down somewhat for me. At least it is partially rectified by the fact that all the squad member missions are very well executed.
Still, the game itself is very good. It is just that these rather small problems stand out so much more against the rest of an incredibly well polished game.
I love Mass Effect it is one of my very favourite games. I also love ME2 however removing elevator rides WAS a mistake, I thought they were a funny way to endure loading times and often rode the elevator with different party members just to see what they would say ;-)
Also the planet scanning IS thumb destroying, but that aside fairly relaxing after an intense mission, for example.
The Mako, I could take or leave but did feel a bit sad seeing it amongst the Normandy wreckage, intact, I might add.
The lack of party random dialogue makes the team seem disconnected from each other, Kaiden and Ashley got know each other and had banter, for ME3 I would love BioWare to take the dialogue style of Dragon Age and implement that, your team mates saw things you did and talked to each other about stuff, so that they questioned you on it when you spoke to them in camp, it made you feel more immersed because they felt more interactive with each other. What does Miranda know about Thane? Nothing, and they need to bond to be able to trust each other as team mates, surely? They only person they know is Shepard, that is just unbelievable to me, and why can't Tali and Garrus fall in love if you aren't interested?
The combat took a bit of getting used to for me, I don't play many shooters (and tend to play co op if I do) They trimmed the fat too far, and stripped elements that many BioWare fans want (as BioWare fans are RPG'ers) Not nearly enough levelling up, level cap at 30? No thanks. Not enough skills (I love me some skills) And not nearly enough equipment.
Party member conversations feel more limited than before, but I don't mind the way the paragon/renegade thing works.
I don't feel a great connection to any of the new party members and hope that you can return to the original team with maybe a couple of the noobs (Thane and Mordin for example) for ME3
But I do think they are both great games with equal parts of merit and demerit each. Some changes are good some not so much. I will still pre order 3 as soon as it is available and will go for collector's edition if available (I see no reason to change that habit) I just wish they would go to someone like Piggyback for the strategy guide......
Also the planet scanning IS thumb destroying, but that aside fairly relaxing after an intense mission, for example.
The Mako, I could take or leave but did feel a bit sad seeing it amongst the Normandy wreckage, intact, I might add.
The lack of party random dialogue makes the team seem disconnected from each other, Kaiden and Ashley got know each other and had banter, for ME3 I would love BioWare to take the dialogue style of Dragon Age and implement that, your team mates saw things you did and talked to each other about stuff, so that they questioned you on it when you spoke to them in camp, it made you feel more immersed because they felt more interactive with each other. What does Miranda know about Thane? Nothing, and they need to bond to be able to trust each other as team mates, surely? They only person they know is Shepard, that is just unbelievable to me, and why can't Tali and Garrus fall in love if you aren't interested?
The combat took a bit of getting used to for me, I don't play many shooters (and tend to play co op if I do) They trimmed the fat too far, and stripped elements that many BioWare fans want (as BioWare fans are RPG'ers) Not nearly enough levelling up, level cap at 30? No thanks. Not enough skills (I love me some skills) And not nearly enough equipment.
Party member conversations feel more limited than before, but I don't mind the way the paragon/renegade thing works.
I don't feel a great connection to any of the new party members and hope that you can return to the original team with maybe a couple of the noobs (Thane and Mordin for example) for ME3
But I do think they are both great games with equal parts of merit and demerit each. Some changes are good some not so much. I will still pre order 3 as soon as it is available and will go for collector's edition if available (I see no reason to change that habit) I just wish they would go to someone like Piggyback for the strategy guide......
I have to agree with the Mass Effect 2 majority here. Managing my inventory after every kill in the first game was horrendous and the Mako was so frustrating it made me almost give up on side missions (unfortunately, I'm a bit of a perfectionist).
I love the second game, the combat's more tactical, the levels are better designed, the action is more fluid and more cinematic and, whereas I can appreciate your comments on the story, I take a different stance to it. If you look at Mass Effect 1 as a seperate game, yes, the story was better, but if you look at Mass Effect 2 as a continuation, I think it's a good story.
Don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your opinion, and I do have problems with the second game myself (missions feel more like linear levels than a part of an open universe, goddamn probing etc.) but I think for the majority, it's vastly improved from the original.
I love the second game, the combat's more tactical, the levels are better designed, the action is more fluid and more cinematic and, whereas I can appreciate your comments on the story, I take a different stance to it. If you look at Mass Effect 1 as a seperate game, yes, the story was better, but if you look at Mass Effect 2 as a continuation, I think it's a good story.
Don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your opinion, and I do have problems with the second game myself (missions feel more like linear levels than a part of an open universe, goddamn probing etc.) but I think for the majority, it's vastly improved from the original.
Well, to be honest, you spend Mass Effect 1 with only ONE of each weapon type. You don't get new weapons in ME1, you get the same weapon with slightly bigger numbers, the same effect being achieved by researching/buying upgrades in ME2.Gethsemani said:
Sure, there might be only two Pistols in ME2, but those two pistols actually function differently, with differing clip sizes, rates of fire, reserve ammo and damage per shot. All the individual weapons function differently, to the point where there is now actual room for discussion on which is the best Assault Rifle or Sniper.
ME1 had four weapons. That was it. ME2 has five weapon categories with 2-5 distinct weapons in each. Plus the Heav Weapons that all function differently. I'd say ME2 has a massive increase in the number of weapons to ME1...
The second part of your argument doesn't make much sense and I'm getting the idea you misunderstood how the "new weapon" part of the game works. Your Sentinel gets to pick one extra weapon category, so say goodbye to your Carnifex and say hello to Assault Rifles (or Snipers, or Shotguns). Classes that already have one of those weapon types can pick an advanced weapon in those categories (for instance, Infiltrators can get the Widow sniper). Basically, you don't get left out by not being a "combat" class...
As long as you approve of the Mother series I have no complaints. ^_^s69-5 said:
OT: Being a member of the evil and tasteless conformists (you know, I don't remember this much talk over the first ME), I must say I very much enjoyed Mass Effect 2, and do not think I'll be able to return to the first (at least for a while).