The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

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Ragsnstitches

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Captain Pooptits said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Captain Pooptits said:
That's still incredibly stupid. "Ha ha we killed your boner," doubly so because 90% of the time the opposite is true. Look at Bridget, Poison or as I meantioned, Skullgirls. Are they still subversive when they prove these generalized, preconceived notions wrong?
What the fuck is skullgirls and why is it the entire pivot point of your hilariously off point comments? Does one incredibly niche game really change the generalised norm? Wow, if only all those social activists of the last century knew all you had to do is make a microcosmic success in a niche entertainment market to make instant and quantifiable change.

Speaking of quantifiable:

90%... citation needed.

Look, you really don't know a thing about me so I suggest you leave me and my preferences out of this, but to be clear, your really off mark when it comes to that image you seem to have of me.

At this stage, I'm just confused. What the fuck is your point?
Where do I talk about your preferences exactly? XD

I hope you know who Bridget is, at least. At any rate, I didn't say anything about mass or niche entertainment causing social change. In fact, I find that notion pretty ridiculous. Hence why I am ridiculing the idea of grossing out heterosexual dudes to subvert the expectation of objectified lust objects. The examples I noted are instances in which the opposite ended up happening. That's why I asked whether such things retroactively qualify as objectification in media.
Bridget?

Man you need to clarify who you are referencing. I read too quickly sometimes and I just assumed Bridget and Poison were Skullgirl characters, despite you making a distinction.

Also, I agree... it is totally stupid. It's a crying shame that it is so common in comedy tropes.

As for you making assumptions about me, at one point in the first post to me you asked a question in an attempt at throwing my logic (in relation to a subversive trope) out the window, without realising the scenario you were describing, described me too (more or less). My last response telling you to stop was part of the confusion on my part, as I just assumed you carried over assumptions into the following comment. My bad.
 

blackrave

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shiajun said:
I wholeheartedly agree. No one should be catering to anyone specifically. Of the games you mentioned, they have relatively little in common in tone, gameplay, objectives, etc. They were mostly done out of the developers interests. But we're not there anymore. I don't really know, so this is all speculation, but I'd venture that back in the late nineties/early 2000s there wasn't as much reliance on focus groups as evidence to push out anything that's not a following the model of CoD or Gears of War out of the spotlight. There were many mid-size studios back then, budgets were more moderate and a lot of experimentation took place. We're not there anymore, and we should try to get somehow back there in terms of diversity in properly funded projects.

In any case, I wasn't talking about coverage as in development but as in media coverage. Many people out there are making some really interesting, weird games that have nothing to do with the current shooter/cover model, yet we only get to know the tip of iceberg of those through the bigger channels. We should ask why that is, since apparently those crowds put a lot of money where they mouth is if Kickstarter donations are to be believed. So, it's wise form a business perspective to try to draw those audiences to your site and stop plastering the page with the same news about the same games. It would a more accurate reporting of the industry than centering on the action white male demographic alone.
Oh, I see, I didn't quite grasped what you meant, sorry.
But again is there any more/less respectable media site that showcases and reviews only AAA dudebro games?
Those few media sites I visit actually talks about wide specter of games- good, bad, meh, well known and obscure.
Not to mention other forms of media (movies, anime, music and even books)
Maybe there are those who fits the description, but I haven't heard of them :/
Could you provide name or link, so I can facepalm too?
 

QuantumWalker

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SummerOtaku said:
You can include sexist/racists/hate of any kind into any artist media and not have the biproduct itself be sexist/racist/hateful. She mentions in one of her videos how she enjoyed the few games that had a sexist theme/trope subverted. (I believe it was one of the women in distress ones). Like you started out as the kidnapped princess and make your way out of the situation on your own. Woman in distress can also have the woman given agency and ability to be the hero as well.
The thing is, this is not the sentiment that Anita wants us to take from her videos. In all three of her DiD videos she presents a conflicting and shifting viewpoint on how this trope interacts with the rest of the world.

She says this quote in her second video immediately after she highlights how some games use violence as a means to bring female characters back to their senses, or to end their suffering is analogous to domestic violence.
It's especially troubling in-light of the serious real life epidemic of violence against women facing the female population on this planet. Every 9 seconds a woman is assaulted or beaten in the United States and on average more than three women are murdered by their boyfriends husbands, or ex-partners every single day. Research consistently shows that people of all genders tend to buy into the myth that women are the ones to blame for the violence men perpetrate against them. In the same vein, abusive men consistently state that their female targets ?deserved it?, ?wanted it? or were ?asking for it?
She then goes on to say a few minutes later
Likewise engaging with these games is not going to magically transform players into raging sexists. We typically don?t have a monkey-see monkey-do, direct cause and effect relationship with the media we consume.
She will juxtapose information and statistics with the clear intention of trying to demonstrate that x leads to y, but will fail to correlate this information to the problem at hand. As with Jack Thompson and violence, the same is true for Anita Sarkeesian and domestic violence in video games. Their is no direct link between the instances of violence we see in media and it's occurrence in real life.

This same phenomenon of flip flopping on terms and statements can be seen throughout her entire video series so far. She will make generalizations about the gaming community and then say that not all people are like that. She will say that the DiD trope is terrible because it forces women to need help, but then says that helping people is a good thing.

And as far as Anita has told us, the only time that being a damsel is acceptable is when the trope is being subverted and the woman is able to free herself. She tries to say that this is because subverting the trope gives agency to the damsel, but them by definition of what a damsel in distress which, as defined by Anita, is:
the damsel in distress is a plot device in which a female character is placed in a perilous situation from which she cannot escape on her own and then must be rescued by a male character, usually providing an incentive or motivation for the protagonist?s quest.
So if the damsel is able to free herself and exercise agency independent of the player character is she really a damsel in distress or just a woman who got kidnapped?
 

LetalisK

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Ragsnstitches said:
*You still feeling smug?
Never felt smug, but I am bored with your antics towards not just myself, but others in this thread. You have not brought up anything I haven't already addressed, so I'm assuming you're just ignoring what I'm actually saying now. I'll be getting off this merry-go-round before it spins out of control. Have a nice day. (And that's not sarcasm, btw).
 

Ipsen

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Callate said:
I didn't (and don't) really want to get into another Sarkeesian discussion which almost inevitably seems to resolve with polar camps becoming even more entrenched in what they already believe.

But I feel like I do need to say this much: if Anita Sarkeesian is "the most dangerous woman in videogames"... Man, we've really got to up our game.

Which is not to say anything about the quality of her work, one way or another. Take that as you will, good, bad, or indifferent. Just that no one can really, credibly say that Anita Sarkeesian is in video games.

She's a critic. A commentator. A sideliner. One more chatterer in the chattering throng, as it were, enjoying her moment in the spotlight for however long it might last. She might be an irritating rabble rouser mouthing off her own opinion or she might be the spearhead of a growing movement, but in either case, she as an individual means very little to video games, either individually or as a whole.

As hard as it may be for some people to believe, there are actual women making actual video games- from Rhianna Pratchett writing for Tomb raider to transexual activist and game designer Anna Anthropy. If an "armchair quarterback" like Sarkeesian is the the woman influencing the face of video games the most, the figure of doom foretelling the new face of the medium... I'm less than convinced that the revolution is imminent. Sarkeesian's influence on the medium ends with a flick of an off switch and an Amazon purchase of the next Suda 51 game. Someone who's actually in the medium is far more likely to actually bring about change.



But apparently there's no one all that "dangerous", there.
So, off topic (I've said my piece today), but just wanted to say...

I like your posts, man. Stay classy, and on The Escapist!

-runs away in embarrassment-
 

StHubi

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The Dubya said:
StHubi said:
Are there really people in this thread that do not like the option of free speech?
Nope.

Disagreeing with one another does not mean we're stifling anyone's free speech FFS. Free speech is more than just "I can say what I want and you can't challenge me on it because I'm entitled to my opinion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_entitled_to_my_opinion] and you're an asshole if you do!"

So I do implore you to actually read what's been said here with a fair and open mind, StHubi. You just might get learn'd a-somethin.
I just learned that not everybody reads a complete post and quotes parts to give other posts a different sound/meaning ;) There is another sentence behind the one you quoted from my post. It said basically the same as you just did?!? I have not read yet all of the thread and I was just wondering if there was already a lot of threats and hate here again... That's all what I was wondering about.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Piecewise said:
In other words you don't want to rebut any of the many many MANY well reasoned, concise, and lengthy criticisms leveled against her work, which have nothing to do with her being a woman or are sexist in the least.
If you've ever read my response before, you know I have done just that.

Most of the "well reasoned criticisms" against her amount to "I am not aware of feminist theory - therefore it does not exist and she's wrong."

A person being ignorant of the lens through which the material is being viewed does not make her wrong.

A person having the opinion that no art should be viewed through a lens (like feminism or many other philosophical lenses) does not mean that the person is using the technique incorrectly.

If someone disagrees with the basic tenants of Feminism (particularly second wave feminism), then fine. Anita did not invent feminism, second wave or otherwise.
 

AstaresPanda

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infinity_turtles said:
I'm just going to say that I disagree that she's doing more good than harm. The lack of diversity in female characters was something talked about. It just wasn't some huge polarizing issue. I feel like she's poisoned the well, and that what could be discussion of the issue and those surrounding it has mostly become two circlejerks attacking each other.
i agree, its never been an issue as its only just recently gaming culture has really become main stream and not just for kids and or guys. Lets face it its always been considered an immature activity, women would also think a man childish if they enjoy video games. But these people could never understand (pc gaming for me with my 56kmodem :p) that the games were much more then kids stuff. So like i said only NOW are more people open to it and now a wider audience would like to be portrayed in some form or another. So NO its not that the video game culture is broken, it needs work now that its mainstream and things are changing more female characters etc. The overwhelming amount of hate she got was due to her blatant lack of knowledge on the subject despite what her kick starter might say, and come on have you watched any of her videos lots of long words and buzz words with flimsy evidence to back up her crap.
 

StHubi

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Captain Pooptits said:
Whoa whoa what? You haven't even looked at the thread, but you jump to the conclusion that Sarkeesian's detractors probably hate free speech? The actual hell?
I just asked a question. That was not a conclusion...

Captain Pooptits said:
And when her person is attacked it's because the poster thinks that she's scamming the very people that support her.
"The ends justify the means!"
 

Ticklefist

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This woman has never affected my life in any way. I assume she's the typical e-crusader. Probably says a lot of things we can all agree with then takes the crazy train off the rails a minute later.
 

BreakfastMan

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Jul 22, 2010
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blackrave said:
BreakfastMan said:
The fact that all of the leaders are huge misogynists and (usually) rape apologists. The fact that they are anti-science, choosing to hold to disproved theories of evolutionary psychology. The fact that even the most "respectable" of their number, Warren Farrell, has endorsed date-rape.
Any links for reference?
Also I'm not sure you can consider anyone in MHRM a "leader"
There are few noticeable personas, but no one who demands/deserves/carries title of "leader"
Are you talking about any particular person?
I am thinking of the leaders of A Voice For Men and The Spearhead, two of the most prominent sites. Both have said absolutely awful things and both of which are generally held up as leaders in the MRA community. Warren Farrel talked about how date rape is sexy in his book, so I don't have any direct links to that, but I do have links to images of the passage where he discusses that, if you like.

As for links to horrible stuff from them... Well, those are more easy to find!

Horrible shit from The Spearhead:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2013/10/14/why-you-might-want-to-think-twice-about-sending-your-daughter-to-college/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/05/30/after-25-women-are-just-wasting-time/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/09/15/how-female-suffrage-destroyed-western-civilization/

Horrible shit from A Voice For Men:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/women-dont-own-sex/
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/chanty-no-not-that-one/
http://www.avoiceformen-uk.com/2013/07/are-women-homophobic.html
 

Piecewise

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Piecewise said:
In other words you don't want to rebut any of the many many MANY well reasoned, concise, and lengthy criticisms leveled against her work, which have nothing to do with her being a woman or are sexist in the least.
If you've ever read my response before, you know I have done just that.

Most of the "well reasoned criticisms" against her amount to "I am not aware of feminist theory - therefore it does not exist and she's wrong."

A person being ignorant of the lens through which the material is being viewed does not make her wrong.

A person having the opinion that no art should be viewed through a lens (like feminism or many other philosophical lenses) does not mean that the person is using the technique incorrectly.

If someone disagrees with the basic tenants of Feminism (particularly second wave feminism), then fine. Anita did not invent feminism, second wave or otherwise.
There is a difference between viewing something through the lens of a specific ideology and cherry picking data points to give evidence to a presupposition. These works begin with a presupposition and then pick and chose very specific examples, often devoid of context, in order to support it. This is the same sort of argumentation style that evolution deniers, flat earthers and climate change skeptics love to use. It's a confirmation Bias.

So no, I have no problem with the "Feminist lens" with which she chooses to examine a particular subject matter. My problem is with the fact that she clearly did very little research, argues using logical fallacies and just plain doesn't seem to care about giving the work the good, thorough examination it deserves.

Frankly, people praising her work disgusts me in the same way people praising Twilight as a well written story: There's nothing wrong with the concept, it's just everything about the execution thats terrible. Come on, I'm sure there are much better, more insightful women out there who would give this subject a MUCH better examination then her. Why are you idolizing Meyer when Shelley exists?
 

Draconalis

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Sep 11, 2008
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Dead Raen said:
This entire article was one big feelgood piece for her.
I read a page and a half before I started to suspect there was no real substance to the article, and started skimming to see if anything resembling an opinion, or stance, or anything was going to be here, rather that what it turned out to be... the summary of a night that happened.
 

Sofus

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Has Anita used Deus Ex Human Revolution as an example yet? what about that old guy Leo in Mafia 2? or isn't it about someone being helpless and in need of rescue?

Bastila in KOTOR is a trope aswell, and what about the many, many people in the Mass Effect trilogy who are utterly helpless untill Shepard comes to the rescue. What if both the protagonist and the npc is of the same gender?
 

Ragsnstitches

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LetalisK said:
Ragsnstitches said:
*You still feeling smug?
Never felt smug, but I am bored with your antics towards not just myself, but others in this thread. You have not brought up anything I haven't already addressed, so I'm assuming you're just ignoring what I'm actually saying now. I'll be getting off this merry-go-round before it spins out of control. Have a nice day. (And that's not sarcasm, btw).
I responded to everything you said and also acknowledged when I was wrong or clarified when a message got mixed up, but you don't seem to be eager to talk so much as blunt force yourself through this topic.

If by others you are referring to my spat with CaptainPooptits, he came out of the blue and picked at something that had no intent behind it other then to exemplify something, then propped it up as if it somehow reflected my world-view. I didn't take kindly to it and responded with venom. Confusion is resolved now, as I'm not incapable of working through a disagreement.

It's hard to take that sentiment seriously as I doubt you mean it, but I can't argue with the rational. I've been too abrasive over this and external factors aren't making it any better. Better then banging our heads against walls.