The notion of, "Well if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide".

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I use to be pretty hardnose about this kinda thing, and if I think about it... yeah it still irks me, but were fighting bad people in non-idealistic world. Broken world, broken solutions. Theres really no way around it, just what is. And that isn't very comforting, I know.

Except that the NSA spying stopped exactly ZERO plots against the US. They claimed hundreds...then backpedaled, then backpedaled, then backpedaled and now they're like "Well...Maybe this one case? Maybe? I know we can't prove it, but...maybe?"

So forgive me if I don't believe that mass surveillance of our private lives will stop terrorists. Our lives are NOT on the line here.

In fact, to believe so is ridiculous, as the government would be overwhelmed with "white noise" of minor transgressions or other things that would be so numerous that it would drown out the handful of cases where someone was actually up to something.

FURTHER, even if they DO know someone is unstable, that's no guarantee they can do anything. Up here in Canada, we had two lunatic fundamentalist types go on two minor attempted rampages within the same week. The cops KNEW about both those guys and how they were unstable and probably radicalized. They still weren't able to stop those guys until they actually started their attacks.

Plus, you and me might not be in danger if our dirty laundry got out there. But some people would be.

Finally, you have to be careful about compromising your values because "It's a broken world". Just because some yahoos attack civilians, does that mean we should stop caring about collateral damage as well? If you stoop to the level of the enemy, you become just as shitty as they are. And in that instance, why are you so special that you aren't the "bad guy" for doing what they do?

You don't improve a broken world by breaking it further.

 

[BarkBarker]

I hide what I don't want people to see because looked down upon is not illegal but it certainly isn't gonna win me any goddamn awards. The purpose of the phrase is when people are defensive or suspicious about areas that they often chastise others about, commonly applied to politicians and governmental bodies who are suspiciously making sure I see only very specific things, things that they likely shouldn't be hiding.

I'm allowed to hide my tastes in the opposite sex, applying it there is misunderstanding it by taking it literally. Hiding perhaps my job history is something to raise a flag for other where the statement would apply, I'm sure there are exceptions where misunderstandings of the information at face value can cause misconceptions but the point still stands.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I use to be pretty hardnose about this kinda thing, and if I think about it... yeah it still irks me, but were fighting bad people in non-idealistic world. Broken world, broken solutions. Theres really no way around it, just what is. And that isn't very comforting, I know.

Except that the NSA spying stopped exactly ZERO plots against the US. They claimed hundreds...then backpedaled, then backpedaled, then backpedaled and now they're like "Well...Maybe this one case? Maybe? I know we can't prove it, but...maybe?"

So forgive me if I don't believe that mass surveillance of our private lives will stop terrorists. Our lives are NOT on the line here.

In fact, to believe so is ridiculous, as the government would be overwhelmed with "white noise" of minor transgressions or other things that would be so numerous that it would drown out the handful of cases where someone was actually up to something.

FURTHER, even if they DO know someone is unstable, that's no guarantee they can do anything. Up here in Canada, we had two lunatic fundamentalist types go on two minor attempted rampages within the same week. The cops KNEW about both those guys and how they were unstable and probably radicalized. They still weren't able to stop those guys until they actually started their attacks.

Plus, you and me might not be in danger if our dirty laundry got out there. But some people would be.

Finally, you have to be careful about compromising your values because "It's a broken world". Just because some yahoos attack civilians, does that mean we should stop caring about collateral damage as well? If you stoop to the level of the enemy, you become just as shitty as they are. And in that instance, why are you so special that you aren't the "bad guy" for doing what they do?

You don't improve a broken world by breaking it further.

I probably am the bad guy. What do you want me to say? There is no improving a broken world theres just survival, thats it. The daily grind.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I probably am the bad guy. What do you want me to say? There is no improving a broken world theres just survival, thats it. The daily grind.

Jeez, and I thought I'd given up on life (being 6 years into a bachlor's degree only for yet another roadblock to screw me over will do that to a guy).

I reject that fatalistic notion. And history is largely on my side.

We didn't cry in our caves and stick to eating bushes. We mastered Fire and made tools and hunted bigger animals.
We didn't bow our heads to Cholera and just accept death by diarrhea. We found out how it spread and we stopped it.
We didn't decide slavery in north america was "just the way things are". We fought it and stopped it.

We as a society are always striving to move forward, and we generally make some progress in the end, even if the elites and the assholes try to hold us back.

History isn't written by the guy who just gave up on all his hopes and dreams. It's written by people who actually dare to try and are lucky enough to succeed.

I know on my end that my contributions to the world will be fucking tiny. I'm a nerd who wants to make videogames, but will likely end up screwed and working a shitty job trying to make ends meet, and that I'll likely never achieve my goals and aspirations. But so the fuck what? No one ever won the game by not trying.

I firmly believe that if you want to make the world a better place, you need to start by BEING the change you want to see in the world. Do that, and others will follow, and eventually enough people will be working together so that something will get done and the world will improve a bit.

 

[lacktheknack]

While I find the phrase... irksome, I find it applies.

I honestly have no issue with people finding out all sorts of "dirt" on me, because I honestly don't have any of consequence.

 

[Olas]

What is the context here? Are we talking about government surveillance? I'm theoretically okay with the government knowing about me as long as the info is secure, and the people who have access aren't people with any direct connections to me and are bound by the law to not misuse it. Preferably all data would be kept anonymous from humans unless something within it triggers the need for deeper investigation.

I know that's a lot of caveats, and most people would say it's impossible to guarantee all of the above in the real world, but then this becomes an argument over feasibility not fundamental principles.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I probably am the bad guy. What do you want me to say? There is no improving a broken world theres just survival, thats it. The daily grind.

Jeez, and I thought I'd given up on life (being 6 years into a bachlor's degree only for yet another roadblock to screw me over will do that to a guy).

I reject that fatalistic notion. And history is largely on my side.

We didn't cry in our caves and stick to eating bushes. We mastered Fire and made tools and hunted bigger animals.
We didn't bow our heads to Cholera and just accept death by diarrhea. We found out how it spread and we stopped it.
We didn't decide slavery in north america was "just the way things are". We fought it and stopped it.

We as a society are always striving to move forward, and we generally make some progress in the end, even if the elites and the assholes try to hold us back.

History isn't written by the guy who just gave up on all his hopes and dreams. It's written by people who actually dare to try and are lucky enough to succeed.

I know on my end that my contributions to the world will be fucking tiny. I'm a nerd who wants to make videogames, but will likely end up screwed and working a shitty job trying to make ends meet, and that I'll likely never achieve my goals and aspirations. But so the fuck what? No one ever won the game by not trying.

I firmly believe that if you want to make the world a better place, you need to start by BEING the change you want to see in the world. Do that, and others will follow, and eventually enough people will be working together so that something will get done and the world will improve a bit.

Yeah. I know, cause you choose to. And against all logic I keep waking up day after day.

I dont have answers man. I do know this isnt the hill I wish to die on.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Even though I'm comfortable with it, I can understand why others may not feel the same way, especially if they're distrustful of their current government.

Whoa whoa whoa. This line of thinking is extremely dangerous. Never give any power to yourself or your 'party' that you wouldn't trust the other 'party' (or your worst enemy) with. No matter how much you honestly trust the current government, that is absolutely no excuse to give up additional liberties or privacy, since said government can be swapped out in a matter of years.

OT: Not much else to add as far as the idiocy of 'nothing wrong; nothing to hide.'

Being in constant fear of the worst possibility will get nothing accomplished. Let's not have courts because they could be abused, let's ban all weapons because I sure as hell wouldn't trust my theoretical worst enemy with one, etc.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I do know this isnt the hill I wish to die on.

No one's even asking you to, that's the thing.

Mass surveillance isn't going to keep us more safe than we already are, and the government doesn't have a law stating "If you do not let us spy on you we will shoot you in the face". This isn't like the civil right act where supporters risked getting their ass kicked by angry mobs of racist assholes. There's no need to "Die on this hill" because so far there's no actual danger involved in protesting the mass spying (partially because so many people are with us on this). If that were the case, I'd completely understand you not wanting to take any kind of stand on this.

Still, if you want to just give up on the world, go ahead. I won't pester you any further on that front.

Yeah. I know, cause you choose to. And against all logic I keep waking up day after day.

Actually, the reason I persist and continue to struggle is mostly because there's no videogames, hot chocolate, popcorn or my best buddies when I'm dead. Shallow? Yeah. But so what? Just wanting to enjoy whatever I can is reason enough for me.

Life and society often really sucks, but that's no reason to not try to have fun with it whenever we can and to try to keep the world bearable for everyone else.

 

[Leg End]

Spoiler: Thought I'd chime in with an added view to this.

Thoughts?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I do know this isnt the hill I wish to die on.

No one's even asking you to, that's the thing.

Mass surveillance isn't going to keep us more safe than we already are, and the government doesn't have a law stating "If you do not let us spy on you we will shoot you in the face". This isn't like the civil right act where supporters risked getting their ass kicked by angry mobs of racist assholes. There's no need to "Die on this hill" because so far there's no actual danger involved in protesting the mass spying (partially because so many people are with us on this). If that were the case, I'd completely understand you not wanting to take any kind of stand on this.

Still, if you want to just give up on the world, go ahead. I won't pester you any further on that front.

If I was to subscribe to the idea that peaceful protesting does any sort of good. Protesting only works on the basis of the idea that the people in charge will change, it's just a matter of getting their ear. Getting them to listen.

But I don't subscribe to that. Believe me, they hear us just fine, they just don't care. Let me strawman* for a bit: We all got all up in arms about SOPA and what happened? It got shot down and brought back to life as TTP. It's the same in every branch of government, "Oh you're voting down the school budget? Well we will just keep resubmitting it to vote until it eventually does pass." Didn't California do that with Prop8? If shit goes the way those in power don't like it, they play Freedom Theater until it goes that way.

A lot of the shit the NSA did in the name of keeping america "Safe" was legal either. But are any of the people involved with it going to jail? The only guy they want to throw in jail Snowden, and thats only because he spilled the beans. The laws are completely meaningless.

And I honestly don't see the situation getting any remotely better without a lot of people getting hurt. And maybe I'm too soft for this world, but I don't want to do that.

(*Did I use Strawman right here? I don't even know)

 

[Parasondox]

I do know this isnt the hill I wish to die on.

No one's even asking you to, that's the thing.

Mass surveillance isn't going to keep us more safe than we already are, and the government doesn't have a law stating "If you do not let us spy on you we will shoot you in the face". This isn't like the civil right act where supporters risked getting their ass kicked by angry mobs of racist assholes. There's no need to "Die on this hill" because so far there's no actual danger involved in protesting the mass spying (partially because so many people are with us on this). If that were the case, I'd completely understand you not wanting to take any kind of stand on this.

Still, if you want to just give up on the world, go ahead. I won't pester you any further on that front.

If I was to subscribe to the idea that peaceful protesting does any sort of good. Protesting only works on the basis of the idea that the people in charge will change, it's just a matter of getting their ear. Getting them to listen.

But I don't subscribe to that. Believe me, they hear us just fine, they just don't care. Let me strawman* for a bit: We all got all up in arms about SOPA and what happened? It got shot down and brought back to life as TTP. It's the same in every branch of government, "Oh you're voting down the school budget? Well we will just keep resubmitting it to vote until it eventually does pass." Didn't California do that with Prop8? If shit goes the way those in power don't like it, they play Freedom Theater until it goes that way.

A lot of the shit the NSA did in the name of keeping america "Safe" was legal either. But are any of the people involved with it going to jail? The only guy they want to throw in jail Snowden, and thats only because he spilled the beans. The laws are completely meaningless.

And I honestly don't see the situation getting any remotely better without a lot of people getting hurt. And maybe I'm too soft for this world, but I don't want to do that.

(*Did I use Strawman right here? I don't even know)

Well that's a dark thought you have. The world didnt progress and evolve by the action of nothingness. The reason why the NSAs action was deemed "legal" (not really but okay), was because government officials, those who create and somehow bend the law, allowed it. Shouting the same bullshit "national security".

You know what, as much humans, yes humans, are shitty a lot of the times, I still have some hope that we can change. However those changes will come at a big price and "hope" and determination is what we need in order to fight for everyone and eveything.

Giving up just shows we are just willing to submit and lose.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

But I don't subscribe to that. Believe me, they hear us just fine, they just don't care. Let me strawman* for a bit: We all got all up in arms about SOPA and what happened? It got shot down and brought back to life as TTP. It's the same in every branch of government, "Oh you're voting down the school budget? Well we will just keep resubmitting it to vote until it eventually does pass." Didn't California do that with Prop8? If shit goes the way those in power don't like it, they play Freedom Theater until it goes that way.

A lot of the shit the NSA did in the name of keeping america "Safe" was legal either. But are any of the people involved with it going to jail? The only guy they want to throw in jail Snowden, and thats only because he spilled the beans. The laws are completely meaningless.

And I honestly don't see the situation getting any remotely better without a lot of people getting hurt. And maybe I'm too soft for this world, but I don't want to do that.

(*Did I use Strawman right here? I don't even know)

So if you're lost in the woods and a mountain lion is stalking you with an eye on making you into tonight's dinner, you'd rather give up and let him eat you than keep resisting and making the sumbitch work for it?

We have more to lose by just giving up than we have to lose by fighting this shit, even if those in power keep making us fight the same battles over and over.

Still, if you wanna lie down and be lunch without trying to fight, go ahead. Imma keep swinging my stick at the mountain lion.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

But I don't subscribe to that. Believe me, they hear us just fine, they just don't care. Let me strawman* for a bit: We all got all up in arms about SOPA and what happened? It got shot down and brought back to life as TTP. It's the same in every branch of government, "Oh you're voting down the school budget? Well we will just keep resubmitting it to vote until it eventually does pass." Didn't California do that with Prop8? If shit goes the way those in power don't like it, they play Freedom Theater until it goes that way.

A lot of the shit the NSA did in the name of keeping america "Safe" was legal either. But are any of the people involved with it going to jail? The only guy they want to throw in jail Snowden, and thats only because he spilled the beans. The laws are completely meaningless.

And I honestly don't see the situation getting any remotely better without a lot of people getting hurt. And maybe I'm too soft for this world, but I don't want to do that.

(*Did I use Strawman right here? I don't even know)

So if you're lost in the woods and a mountain lion is stalking you with an eye on making you into tonight's dinner, you'd rather give up and let him eat you than keep resisting and making the sumbitch work for it?

We have more to lose by just giving up than we have to lose by fighting this shit, even if those in power keep making us fight the same battles over and over.

Still, if you wanna lie down and be lunch without trying to fight, go ahead. Imma keep swinging my stick at the mountain lion.

But fighting actual tyranny is more than waving signs and making Hashtags. It requires doing a lot of very bad things.

Fine, you kill the mountain lion. You live. The Mountain Lion had cubs however, and you're now the one responsible that they're parent is coming back. Think they care about your survival? You just killed their daddy, the reasons don't matter why. And so the misery grows.

And I'm not willing to do it.

 

[JimB]

My conscience is pretty much clean. I don't mind submitting to searches presented as requests with a limited scope if I believe the result of such a search will exonerate me of whatever I'm accused of; if the search is presented as a threat or if people just want to tear through my life with impunity, that will put my hackles up.

It's situational. Cooperation can often be more helpful than a principled refusal that has no basis in specific context.

 

[chocolate pickles]

You want to come into my house and look through my shit? Fine, i I've got nothing to hide. Hell, go through my underpants draw if you want and draw conclusions.

I've done nothing wrong, so i have nothing to hide.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

And I'm not willing to do it.

That's fine. You go ahead and don't do it.

But you ain't convincing me to give up with you.

 

[Nemmerle]

Even if you think you've nothing to hide, (and against all probability are somehow correct that in a country with more than ten thousand ways to break the law you can honestly say you know them all and have compared your behaviour over the past half decade or so against them,) I suspect that you should not be in favour of mass surveillance.

You shouldn't be in favour of it because you can't make that guarantee for others. I do have things to hide, and I have done things that if not wrong would be frowned upon in civil society. I also occupy a position of relative power over a large number of other people. It is entirely possible that someone who had a massive information advantage could coerce me to affect the lives of those people to their advantage - and I'd probably be inclined to do it, at least in the short term.

So, I suspect, do all of you. Your tastes in porn, assuming you enjoy porn, would probably make you unsuitable for a lot of positions, if not formally then they'd at least get you informally tanked during a due-diligence paper-shift. Chances are you've broken a fair number of laws - it's very hard not to considering the breadth and scope of legislation these days.

Couple the fact that everyone has done something 'wrong' with the fact that people will dogpile people who seem to have done something iffy (even if they've done it themselves) and the prospective of selective enforcement, and you have created a very powerful weapon that would allow the government to blackmail and otherwise coerce almost anyone under flag of law.

That's the danger. Chances are no-one cares about you right now, whether you've done right or wrong is besides the point - you're probably not important enough. They may, however, care very much about your lawyer, about your congressman or senator, or even about their arrest figures for the month.

The danger is surveillance coupled with unrestrained discretion. One might euphemistically call the style of law resulting Martini Justice: 'Any place, any time, anywhere.'