The Oregon shooting

[omega 616]

snip

Please do tell, how you expect to fight your government, really? I'm honestly asking.

As Jim said in his bit, I bet you don't heavily invest in doors, locks and alarms or go to safety conventions. You read guns n' bullets magazine, take pics of yourself holding "da shoota" etc.

As for what planet he lives on, it's called Earth, you should visit. Schools are for learning, not for combat training. You don't need a gun to feel safe. You don't need to worry about police shooting you. It's pretty nice. He has lived in Aus and the UK, both places are doing pretty well without guns.

As for the constitution, another thing you love to cling to, it's open to change. Just the majority of you are happy to let school shootings happen, say "aww shucks", say "something should change" then carry on as normal till the next shooting.

Also, the comment about being nicer ... you took it the wrong way. If you need a shotgun to defend yourself, you've obviously made a lot of enemies who want you dead and the only way to stop them is with something a little more heavy duty. So if you were nicer you wouldn't have made so many enemies who want you dead and you wouldn't need a shotgun.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

I guess if the US is so determined to keep its guns, its gonna have to stop reporting these tragedies.
As a nation you're like a self harmer looking for sympathy.

 

[Leg End]

Please do tell, how you expect to fight your government, really? I'm honestly asking.

...With people and arms? Is that a question?

As Jim said in his bit, I bet you don't heavily invest in doors, locks and alarms or go to safety conventions. You read guns n' bullets magazine, take pics of yourself holding "da shoota" etc.

Well at the moment I don't really have the funds to invest in anything, or a house to put money into defense to be honest, but I plan to have good doors put in, a more basic alarm system primarily to wake me up in the night if someone does break in, reinforced windows and a safe for my firearms because dammit safes are expensive and I want one of dem pretty ones.

As for what planet he lives on, it's called Earth, you should visit. Schools are for learning, not for combat training. You don't need a gun to feel safe. You don't need to worry about police shooting you. It's pretty nice. He has lived in Aus and the UK, both places are doing pretty well without guns.

You mean one country where the government is an actual nanny state and the other the same but people need knives instead for safety?
Hell, I miss when schools actually had shooting teams. I miss more when people didn't think that was combat training.

As for the constitution, another thing you love to cling to, it's open to change. Just the majority of you are happy to let school shootings happen, say "aww shucks", say "something should change" then carry on as normal till the next shooting.

Well, the people have spoken and we've all spoken a collective "no, we like our guns, thank you very much".

Also, the comment about being nicer ... you took it the wrong way. If you need a shotgun to defend yourself, you've obviously made a lot of enemies who want you dead and the only way to stop them is with something a little more heavy duty. So if you were nicer you wouldn't have made so many enemies who want you dead and you wouldn't need a shotgun.

So, you're saying politicians are assholes and so are racial minorities in areas with people who are violent racists. I agree with the first point for different reasons and the latter is just sick, to put it mildly. Hell, a lot of gun control in US history was specifically to keep blacks from having guns.

A shotgun makes a great home defense weapon because of the close quarters and lower risk of overpenetration with buckshot. Plus, some other fun stuff like loading less-lethal ammunition and having each one or two go upwards in force until the last option is total lethal force.

I guess if the US is so determined to keep its guns, its gonna have to stop reporting these tragedies.
As a nation you're like a self harmer looking for sympathy.

We're determined to keep our freedom, and our freedom is not causing shootings.

 

[Muspelheim]

Does it really matter if you stuff your house to the roof with rifles, shotguns and assault rifles (or whatever those are called these days) when the gubbamint could just shove a drone-launched Hellfire missile down the chimney?

Self-defense against criminal is a different matter, though. Considering how ruthless home invaders can be, having some decent means of self-defence would be a good idea. Not good enough reason to pretend your house is the Alamo, but a good idea. But burglars and drugheads can't call in air strikes or fire missions to smudge the neighbourhood off the map. I'd imagine the government could.

 

[Leg End]

Does it really matter if you stuff your house to the roof with rifles, shotguns and assault rifles (or whatever those are called these days) when the gubbamint could just shove a drone-launched Hellfire missile down the chimney?

Sure can. But doing that on American soil in populated neighborhoods and cities does not really earn brownie points with anybody, so it'd beyond guarantee there would be no one on the government's side. Those drones don't fly themselves. Well, not entirely anyway.

Plus, it's not too hard to actually take a drone down, either by means of attacking the means of keeping it stocked or directly attacking it. Somehow.

Also, the Cartels are coming pretty close in regards to ordering big booms on places...

 

[omega 616]

snip

Well either you vastly under estimate the American army OR you vastly over estimate guns and arms ...

So you're in the camp of "wait there fuck face while I get me gun outta this "pretty" safe! You better not start murdering me while I get me gun!"

Which is which exactly? Either way, if I get fucked up free health care! Sorry you got hurt defending yourself, hope you have enough stuff left to sell to afford to get better!

I think you mean "we prefer guns over lives, fuck you very much!".

Well maybe if they didn't have guns they would sort it like men and not pull a trigger.

As for the shotgun stuff, instead of robbing you, you just destroy the stuff they would have taken? Great solution!

 

[Leg End]

Well either you vastly under estimate the American army OR you vastly over estimate guns and arms ...

Or you vastly underestimate the American people and assume the army will follow orders to slaughter their countrymen.

So you're in the camp of "wait there fuck face while I get me gun outta this "pretty" safe! You better not start murdering me while I get me gun!"

Nope, in the camp of putting my valuables and some of my pricier guns in there while having firearms easily accessible outside of the safe in muh bedroom. Though, there are biometric safes that help for those that want the protection of a safe with the easy access to their guns in such an emergency.

Which is which exactly? Either way, if I get fucked up free health care! Sorry you got hurt defending yourself, hope you have enough stuff left to sell to afford to get better!

Because paid for with your tax dollars is totally free.
But, I'm insured, so I'm good. For those that aren't, there are ways to pay for your health care and even "free" or nearly "free" healthcare through the gubment to those with low income.

I think you mean "we prefer guns over lives, fuck you very much!".

We prefer to be free and accept the cost of freedom, you mean.

Well maybe if they didn't have guns they would sort it like men and not pull a trigger.

Common fallacy that everyone with guns settles things with guns. Yeah, no. Firearms are a last resort there buddy. Though, speaking of comedians, look into Doug Stanhope and his views on guns and, a fun point, with the UK's free healthcare, they don't care about getting hurt in fights so, who cares? Just punch everyone and let the state foot the bill. No consequence to the person sans a short hospital visit.

As for the shotgun stuff, instead of robbing you, you just destroy the stuff they would have taken? Great solution!

I have no idea what you're saying. You mean shoot my belongings?

 

[Muspelheim]

Does it really matter if you stuff your house to the roof with rifles, shotguns and assault rifles (or whatever those are called these days) when the gubbamint could just shove a drone-launched Hellfire missile down the chimney?

Sure can. But doing that on American soil in populated neighborhoods and cities does not really earn brownie points with anybody, so it'd beyond guarantee there would be no one on the government's side. Those drones don't fly themselves. Well, not entirely anyway.

Plus, it's not too hard to actually take a drone down, either by means of attacking the means of keeping it stocked or directly attacking it. Somehow.

Also, the Cartels are coming pretty close in regards to ordering big booms on places...

I suppose that's true, I doubt the whole U.S. Army would stay loyal to Pentagon if there really was a civil war on. It's more than well enough equipped to wipe out a farmer's militia will small arms and pick-ups, I'd imagine, but the question would be if they'd want to.

I'll never say a word against home defence. The home is sacred, and anyone should be allowed to defend it, no question about it. But even with expanding crime syndicates on the horison, I still wonder exactly how much firepower is reasonable for a civilian household.

But then again, I've stumbled into a hole in my own logic. General 'consumer' firearms are more than enough to cause a massacre on their own, making my own point rather moot...

 

[Leg End]

I suppose that's true, I doubt the whole U.S. Army would stay loyal to Pentagon if there really was a civil war on. It's more than well enough equipped to wipe out a farmer's militia will small arms and pick-ups, I'd imagine, but the question would be if they'd want to.

I'd imagine, at an absolute conservative estimate, you'd have at least half of everybody deserting or not showing up, and they'd even be taking some of dem fancy tax funded toys with them.

I'll never say a word against home defence. The home is sacred, and anyone should be allowed to defend it, no question about it. But even with expanding crime syndicates on the horison, I still wonder exactly how much firepower is reasonable for a civilian household.

Eh, my stance has always been a measuring of "does it destroy the house in the process?", then it's reasonable. Otherwise, just keep it in the back yard. Though that's more me making a bad joke.

But then again, I've stumbled into a hole in my own logic. General 'consumer' firearms are more than enough to cause a massacre on their own, making my own point rather moot...

Actually, I'd argue modern consume firearms are very ineffective at executing massacres and it brings the modern mentality of these arms with it. With every "mass shooting" done, you're getting casualty rates that are far below what you'd imagine. Then again, that's also a bit of realism creeping back in because guns are not as effective in general at slaughtering people as you'd think either. Hell, I'd even argue that fully automatic weapons would result in even fewer deaths because of that very mentality with using a fully automatic weapon seems to have.

 

[CeeBod]

As a non-American, I obviously just don't get the pro-gun arguments, and I really dont understand how anyone can continue repeating them every single time yet another mass shooting happens like a stuck record, without ever noticing that maybe this extreme number of shootings suggests that something is wrong and that it might be sensible to look at changing a few things!

Number 1 on my WTF list when it comes to guns is: why are gun owners so obsessed with defending their property with lethal force? It's just stuff! It is so not worth losing your life over, or becoming a killer over. I don't have guns, or any other form of weapons. I have a burglar alarm because that makes insurance cheaper. I pay taxes, some of which is spent on a police force, and it's their job to deal with criminals, not mine. When I lived at my parents' house, we were burgled a few times - it's not a pleasant experience, but it's really not something worth getting your panties in a twist about.

Number 2 - Why is having the right to carry out an armed revolution against a democratically elected government seen as a good thing? I dislike many things my government do, I didn't vote for the party that won, but there is literally no scenario that ends up with me taking up arms to try to fight them - that's what crazy people do! My government have an army, an air force, a navy, nuclear weapons, drones, allies, they have facilities all over the country, and they have rapid response forces on high alert at all times - what kind of paranoid insanity involves loading up a shotgun and deciding it's time to take them on???

 

[Fdzzaigl]

It's simple really, you either pick disarmament and gun control (which means ALL guns) and decrease gun violence.

Or you pick freedom to own guns, get gun crime rates that are out of control, an arms race with your own government and police forces (guess who's gonna win, you or the multi-billion dollar high tech army).

That ain't up for debate, anyone with a critical mind who has any interest in reading up even a little bit of unbiased reports on this and studying a little bit of history knows this. The end.

Only an insane person could feel safe because they have a gun on them when at the same time anyone else above legal age can also potentially have one.

 

[Leg End]

As a non-American, I obviously just don't get the pro-gun arguments, and I really dont understand how anyone can continue repeating them every single time yet another mass shooting happens like a stuck record, without ever noticing that maybe this extreme number of shootings suggests that something is wrong and that it might be sensible to look at changing a few things!

Totally. We need to find out why people are snapping and desiring to make swiss cheese of people.

Number 1 on my WTF list when it comes to guns is: why are gun owners so obsessed with defending their property with lethal force? It's just stuff!

Well, it's generally from the assumption that someone breaking into your home has probably the worst intentions for you and the inhabitants, along with the possessions within. Also a bit of a cultural thing from when it was far more common for people to fuck with your livestock and you'd be defending your livelihood, which still holds to today, just with far less cattle.

It is so not worth losing your life over, or becoming a killer over.

Well, if there is a point where someone is breaking into your home and they have the means of killing you and are actively threatening you with it, or even if not, how exactly does that thought process work from there? "Oh he's just pointing a gun at me, he's totally not going to use it". A firearm being used in such a way is them already breaching the number one rule of firearms safety, "do not point your weapon at anything you are not fully willing to destroy", which is absolutely reason to assume that, them having this lethal force, they are more than willing to use it and their word means nothing. They're already in your home pointing a gun at you, how sane is it to believe they don't intend to use it?

I don't have guns, or any other form of weapons.

Alright.

I have a burglar alarm because that makes insurance cheaper.

Eh, those things can be ripoffs man.

I pay taxes, some of which is spent on a police force, and it's their job to deal with criminals, not mine.

Brings to mind "When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away.". Plus, the supreme court has actually ruled that cops have no obligation to protect you, just to investigate crimes. Seriously.

When I lived at my parents' house, we were burgled a few times - it's not a pleasant experience, but it's really not something worth getting your panties in a twist about.

That seriously reminded me of someone arguing that rape is not a pleasant experience but it's no reason to shoot someone over.
I'd say both that and someone breaking into your home is quite a serious thing and should be reason to get your panties tangled hardcore.

Number 2 - Why is having the right to carry out an armed revolution against a democratically elected government seen as a good thing?

Because it's not uncommon for a democratically elected government to become a tyrannical one in the blink of an eye.

I dislike many things my government do, I didn't vote for the party that won, but there is literally no scenario that ends up with me taking up arms to try to fight them - that's what crazy people do!

Well, you weren't the colonies so...

My government have an army, an air force, a navy, nuclear weapons, drones, allies, they have facilities all over the country, and they have rapid response forces on high alert at all times - what kind of paranoid insanity involves loading up a shotgun and deciding it's time to take them on???

The same that made my country. Except replace much of what you said with just a fuckton of guns and the greatest army on the planet at the time.

I don't think that most Koreans are crazy for their belief in "Fan Death", I accept it as a culturally bound syndrome.

Funny enough, it was a syndrome planted by the government to save electricity.

 

[Leg End]

Now, tell me how that is in any way similar to humans.

Valuables come in all shapes and sizes.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Insanity, unless you were raised to believe that what you call insane is the norm. I don't think that most Koreans are crazy for their belief in "Fan Death", I accept it as a culturally bound syndrome. It's too bad that the American fixation with guns has more than just amusing fallout.

True, but you'd think that at some point the massive weight of history and sheer statistical numbers as well as practically the entire rest of the civilized world pointing out that your behaviour and thought processes are ridiculous and insane would inspire some true self-reflection, even amongst the hardcore supporters.

 

[Ryotknife]

As a non-American, I obviously just don't get the pro-gun arguments, and I really dont understand how anyone can continue repeating them every single time yet another mass shooting happens like a stuck record, without ever noticing that maybe this extreme number of shootings suggests that something is wrong and that it might be sensible to look at changing a few things!

Number 1 on my WTF list when it comes to guns is: why are gun owners so obsessed with defending their property with lethal force? It's just stuff! It is so not worth losing your life over, or becoming a killer over. I don't have guns, or any other form of weapons. I have a burglar alarm because that makes insurance cheaper. I pay taxes, some of which is spent on a police force, and it's their job to deal with criminals, not mine. When I lived at my parents' house, we were burgled a few times - it's not a pleasant experience, but it's really not something worth getting your panties in a twist about.

Number 2 - Why is having the right to carry out an armed revolution against a democratically elected government seen as a good thing? I dislike many things my government do, I didn't vote for the party that won, but there is literally no scenario that ends up with me taking up arms to try to fight them - that's what crazy people do! My government have an army, an air force, a navy, nuclear weapons, drones, allies, they have facilities all over the country, and they have rapid response forces on high alert at all times - what kind of paranoid insanity involves loading up a shotgun and deciding it's time to take them on???

because there is no gaurantee they are solely after your stuff. In the US there is a roughly 25% chance if someone invades your home while you are there you will be attacked. In my city, there were a pair of robbers who would kill the homeowners and then loot the place at their convience. They even slit the throats of an elderly couple while they were asleep.

Stories like these are not that uncommon either. Logically, yes you are correct, however people are not always logical when adrenaline or, god forbid, drugs are coursing through their system. They can see the homeowners, panic, and attack them not wanting there to be witnesses.

roughly 250,000 people are injured during home robberies every year in the US.

As for number 2, that is pretty much the reason this country even exists. It would be pretty hypocritical to go "yes! we violently overthrew the old government. Our cause is just!.....PS you guys are not allowed to violently overthrow us"

 

[Dalisclock]

Nice assumptions. No, I just particularly like having the means to protect myself, be it from someone breaking into my house, to my own government if things go sour.

As much as I appreciate the "tyrannical government" reasoning, at this point I don't think it means jack anymore. A "citizen uprising" would probably be smacked down with drone strikes and with the survivors getting shipped off to Gitmo or other black sites to be held for the next 10-20 years without trial and then torture you to find out where your buddies are.

I can say this because we've let the government do this for other people AKA "Enemy Combatants" the past 14 years without really giving any kind of a shit. They just haven't been doing it American citizens(mostly).

The Irony is that a lot of people who scream about tyrannical governments will defend Gitmo and act like torture doesn't happen or just excuse it outright.

 

[Leg End]

As much as I appreciate the "tyrannical government" reasoning, at this point I don't think it means jack anymore. A "citizen uprising" would probably be smacked down with drone strikes and with the survivors getting shipped off to Gitmo or other black sites to be held for the next 10-20 years without trial and then torture you to find out where your buddies are.

With the majority of the country participating with very liberal estimates, there is not a military force on the planet that can take on US citizens, all branches of the US armed forces included. This doesn't even take into consideration that many if not most of those in our military would not act against the people of their own country, especially since their oath includes the threat of their own government.

I can say this because we've let the government do this for other people AKA "Enemy Combatants" the past 14 years without really giving any kind of a shit. They just haven't been doing it American citizens(mostly).

Which is why I am sad when people don't even do anything politically.

The Irony is that a lot of people who scream about tyrannical governments will defend Gitmo and act like torture doesn't happen or just excuse it outright.

Which is why I have not much faith in humanity as a whole but I have faith in people willing to fight for freedom.

If anyone gets off their ass.

 

[Vahir]

Shall not be infringed. That's why. Hell we shouldn't even have those restrictions for vehicles because right to travel but again, gotta restrict freedums errywhere amirite.

I know this is a quote going pretty far back, but I'd like to reiterate Breakfastman's "What the fuck". This is insane.