The PC Version of Dark Souls 2 is lazy as hell

[Chris Tian]

I actually happen to prefer using KB/M, shocking, I know. Jesus.

What I learned in this thread is that this is impossible, we have just not seen the light and the glory that is gaming with a controller, nobody can actually prefer playing Dark Souls, or any other game, with KB+M, we are just ignorant infidels that dont yet know better.

And we should never expect any game to work with KB+M at all, and should be thankfull that some do at least somewhat. Since the simple fact that every game (I have played so far on PC) works fine with KB+M is an illusion and we have been deceiving ourselfs.

 

[ninja666]

Dark Souls 1 worked PERFECTLY with KB+M

Finger-breaking control scheme, changing targets with mouse movement and screen wobbling every time you tried to turn. An epitome of perfection, nuff said.

 

[Chris Tian]

Dark Souls 1 worked PERFECTLY with KB+M

Finger-breaking control scheme, changing targets with mouse movement and screen wobbling every time you tried to turn. An epitome of perfection, nuff said.

I played over 200 hours and broke not one finger, I change targets with the mouse wheel, I have never experienced anything that could be described as screen "wobbling", nuff said.

I am seriously asking how people can expect to convince me that I didn't have fun with DS on KB+M or that those controls didn't work for me. Thats like me trying to conince you that you don't like you favorite food or something, what is wrong with you?

 

[ninja666]

I played over 200 hours and broke not one finger, I change targets with the mouse wheel, I have never experienced anything that could be described as screen "wobbling", nuff said.

I am seriously asking how people can expect to convince me that I didn't have fun with DS on KB+M or that those controls didn't work for me. Thats like me trying to conince you that you don't like you favorite food or something, what is wrong with you?

Nobody's trying to convince anybody. If you had fun playing the inferior (and for the most part broken and uncomfortable) control method, then it's fine. The majority, who tried playing it with a controller will say otherwise, though.

 

[Chris Tian]

I played over 200 hours and broke not one finger, I change targets with the mouse wheel, I have never experienced anything that could be described as screen "wobbling", nuff said.

I am seriously asking how people can expect to convince me that I didn't have fun with DS on KB+M or that those controls didn't work for me. Thats like me trying to conince you that you don't like you favorite food or something, what is wrong with you?

Nobody's trying to convince anybody. If you had fun playing the inferior (and for the most part broken and uncomfortable) control method, then it's fine. The majority, who tried playing it with a controller will say otherwise, though.

The KB+M controls for DS1 are not broken, because everything works fine and uncomfortable is one of the most subjective things imaginable. The DS2 controls, on the other hand, are broken, because certain moves just don't work.

The terms inferior and superior are as appropriate to describe the difference between KB+M and controllers as they are to describe pizza toppings. Its just purely a matter of preference.

You are just making the incredably ignorant assumption that whatver you like, or some majority likes, is automatically superior.

 

[ninja666]

You are just making the incredably ignorant assumption that whatver you like, or some majority likes, is automatically superior.

It's not an ignorant statement. It's a fact. Dark Souls is predominately a console game and landed on PC a year after its release on PS3 and X360, just because the PC player begged FromSoft to do so. It wasn't even a proper PC version, just a barebones port. The control scheme for keyboard and mouse feels rushed, unpolished and broken (screen wobbling that was eliminated by Durante in his DSMfix). The key arrangement is really uncomfortable compared to what the PC gamers have been used to over the years (blocking with Shift and going to the pause menu with End; that doesn't "feel" right). Right now you are the one being ignorant and pretentious, defending it as if your life depended on it. Face it - it is inferior when compared to comfortable and well-thought control scheme on the controller. Just because you had fun playing it with keyboard and mouse, doesn't make superior or even equal to the controller scheme because the game was built with controllers in mind and your pseudo-crusade against it won't change that.

 

[Chris Tian]

You are just making the incredably ignorant assumption that whatver you like, or some majority likes, is automatically superior.

It's not an ignorant statement. It's a fact. Dark Souls is predominately a console game and landed on PC a year after its release on PS3 and X360, just because the PC player begged FromSoft to do so. It wasn't even a proper PC version, just a barebones port. The control scheme for keyboard and mouse feels rushed, unpolished and broken (screen wobbling that was eliminated by Durante in his DSMfix). The key arrangement is really uncomfortable compared to what the PC gamers have been used to over the years (blocking with Shift and going to the pause menu with End; that doesn't "feel" right). Right now you are the one being ignorant and pretentious, defending it as if your life depended on it. Face it - it is inferior when compared to comfortable and well-thought control scheme on the controller. Just because you had fun playing it with keyboard and mouse, doesn't make superior or even equal to the controller scheme because the game was built with controllers in mind and your pseudo-crusade against it won't change that.

Jesus, you really need to learn what facts are.

Blocking with shift? I block with mouse button 4, but okay.

I can never understand the crazy need to have something one likes to be universally acceptet as the best thing ever. Think that if you need it so badly, since you can't understand that something like this is just a subjective matter of preference.

 

[ninja666]

Blocking with shift? I block with mouse button 4, but okay.

Sure, cause everybody has a 4-5 button "gaming" mouse. Most people have a standard two-button (three, if you count the wheel) one and were forced to map the block onto one of the keyboard keys. The default was Shift.

 

[A-D.]

You are just making the incredably ignorant assumption that whatver you like, or some majority likes, is automatically superior.

It's not an ignorant statement. It's a fact. Dark Souls is predominately a console game and landed on PC a year after its release on PS3 and X360, just because the PC player begged FromSoft to do so. It wasn't even a proper PC version, just a barebones port. The control scheme for keyboard and mouse feels rushed, unpolished and broken (screen wobbling that was eliminated by Durante in his DSMfix). The key arrangement is really uncomfortable compared to what the PC gamers have been used to over the years (blocking with Shift and going to the pause menu with End; that doesn't "feel" right). Right now you are the one being ignorant and pretentious, defending it as if your life depended on it. Face it - it is inferior when compared to comfortable and well-thought control scheme on the controller. Just because you had fun playing it with keyboard and mouse, doesn't make superior or even equal to the controller scheme because the game was built with controllers in mind and your pseudo-crusade against it won't change that.

Which of these reasons excuses that FROM couldnt be bothered to figure out proper KB&M Controls? You can argue all you want that they designed it with controller in mind, that it came to console first or whatever. Look at Mass Effect, Xbox 360 exclusive until EA figured that releasing it on PC would get them more money. Did Mass Effect have bad Keyboard and Mouse controls? Was it "made with controllers in mind"? No, the controls were adapted to the new platform. FROM is not excused just because they dont have the know-how, ignorance does not absolve them. Yes you can excuse that "they tried and it didnt turn out perfect" but that doesnt mean we should not expect them to try their hardest to give us a control-interface at least on par with controllers. Dark Souls 2 is proof that they have improved, its not perfect yet but i hope the third time around they get it perfect, because as it is, DS2 was a step in the right direction, however that does not mean FROM shouldnt try to do even better.

However i take offense to your implication that somehow the Controller is superior. It isnt. I dont own a 360 Controller, or a PS3 controller, i have one which is shaped like a PS2 Controller because i prefer the form of it, but ultimately it is a third-party device. Right analog-stick does not control camera, it controls heavy attacks..for some bizarre reason. In fact i have no camera control at all with it. Is my Controller superior to my mouse which allows me to control the camera perfectly? No it isnt. Therefore your argument is "SOME" controllers are superior for the game because they work just right with it, without needing yet another fix from third-party software to work correctly.

And i dont like the shape of the 360 Controller, its why i didnt buy one. And yet, ironically, i have NOT met a single player in PvP who bested me because of controls. If i get backstabbed because of lag? Wasnt the controls. Get shot by powerstanced dual-avelyns? Wasnt controls. Met yet another Havel-scrub? Wasnt the controls. How about all those Hexers? Ganksquads? Nope, controls arent the factor.

So please tell me again how people are "superior" to me because they use a controller, because i can tell you as a matter of fact, they arent.

 

[Zipa]

That is why PC games should at minimum have rebindable keys, especially as a lot of devs seem to set the default to some weird configurations. Its not exactly a massive expectation and every single PC gaming or otherwise has one.

 

[ninja666]

I honestly don't get why can't you just suck up that "PC MASTURRR RACE HURR DURRRRR" attitude of yours and just accept the simple fact, that Dark Souls games can't be played comfortably with a keyboard and a mouse and you have to use a controller instead. I know it's bad, I know it shouldn't happen and I don't approve it either, but there's literally nothing we can do about it. Even FromSoft can't do anything really. Actions in their games are designed in such a way that you'd need a 4-button mouse by default to be able to do every weapon/shield related action using only one hand. It's simply not possible to do, as not everybody has one. Apart from that, Dark Souls isn't a PC game, so it shouldn't be surprising it's consolish. As I said a few posts earlier, Dark Souls wouldn't even be on the "glorious master race gaming devices" if not for the pathetic begging from the PC gamers. The presence of Dark Souls on PC is more an effect of pity, rather than anything else.

 

[A-D.]

I honestly don't get why can't you just suck up that "PC MASTURRR RACE HURR DURRRRR" attitude of yours and just accept the simple fact, that Dark Souls games can't be played comfortably with a keyboard and a mouse and you have to use a controller instead. I know it's bad, I know it shouldn't happen and I don't approve it either, but there's literally nothing we can do about it. Even FromSoft can't do anything really. Actions in their games are designed in such a way that you'd need a 4-button mouse by default to be able to do every weapon/shield related action using only one hand. It's simply not possible to do, as not everybody has one. Apart from that, Dark Souls isn't a PC game, so it shouldn't be surprising it's consolish. As I said a few posts earlier, Dark Souls wouldn't even be on the "glorious master race gaming devices" if not for the pathetic begging from the PC gamers. The presence of Dark Souls on PC is more an effect of pity, rather than anything else.

Have you any idea how utterly insulting this entire statement is? What "attitude"? That there is the expectation that when porting something from one platform to another, it should be adapted properly to the platforms input devices? How is that a bad thing? Would you play any game, which came out on PC first and was then ported to a console, it would require you to buy a mouse and keyboard for the console because "it was designed that way"?

And your "fact" is provably wrong. If it was fact that as you claim the game cannot be played comfortably or successfully with a mouse and keyboard, then why did i not have any problems doing so? Why did i never feel like i was worse off in my experience of the game or interacting with it? If it was a fact, it is not changeable based on different observations. Gravity is a fact, because it happens and you cant change how it works. No matter what you do, if you lift a pen and let go of it, it will fall down. It might fall slower because gravity is less, it might stay in the air because there is no gravity. But if there is gravity and every planetary body exerts gravity, then every object on it will fall down. That is a fact, because it is proven to work only this way and no other.

If anyone can play the game with a keyboard and mouse and have fun doing so, then it is demonstrably false that you can only play, or enjoy, the game with a controller in hand. And the height of insulting is calling the PC Playerbase "pathetic" for asking FROM to port an excellent game to their platform of choice, rather than keeping it limited to just that one console. It clearly shows bias in that you are a Console gamer and therefore can only think in these terms.

 

[Chris Tian]

I honestly don't get why can't you just suck up that "PC MASTURRR RACE HURR DURRRRR" attitude of yours and just accept the simple fact, that Dark Souls games can't be played comfortably with a keyboard and a mouse and you have to use a controller instead.

Simply because that is not a fact. I have played Dark Souls comfortably with KB+M, many PC Gamers have, you just keep ignoring that.

Seriously, go learn what "fact" means, that is very important if you want to have debates.

 

[A-D.]

It clearly shows bias in that you are a Console gamer and therefore can only think in these terms.

I'm not biased. I'm not a "console gamer" either. I don't even own a console. I'm just intelligent enough not to be an elitist piece of shit, who goes crazy over a feature in a game just because he's too proud to pick up a controller and play the game the way it was designed to be played. You don't have to of course. Have fun and enjoy playing with keyboard and mouse. Hope you won't die just because you didn't double-click fast enough to execute a parry.

What does one have to do with the other? What does using a controller have to do with intelligence? What does parrying have to do with the input? Are you saying you CANT be too slow to double-click that controller-button to parry? That its impossible? Are you saying that perhaps we need to limit the game to 30 frames per second so you can parry everything reliably because its just too hard on 60 frames per second?

But alas, i will have to disappoint you, i dont run a parry-build. None of my builds are designed for parry in mind. But i dearly hope you can roll fast enough to avoid being backstabbed by a Greatsword. Rolling > Parry. Just saying.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

I just finished DS2 on PC and while I think its not as good as DS1 I had lots of fun. Its just that the PC Port is, like with DS1, a freaking disaster.

I have to agree. While I like both games and I've spent a lot of time in them and plan spending even more, I have to say the port is a disaster.

Did they even test the PC Version at all? Because I can hardly belive that nobody noticed that your character stands there like a dear in the headlights for a second until he decides to raise his shield.

No, I think it's obvious they didn't test it.
First of all, they locked almost everything to the framerate. This is a disaster on it's own. Anyone who has played the game on a console and then on the PC with 60 FPS will tell you that the PC version is much harder. Thanks to things being tied to the framerate and not to the system time, you literally have a 2 times smaller dodge and parry window than on consoles.
Adding to the smaller parry window the double click shit, parrying with the default settings is almost impossible. It's pure luck.

DaS1 port, while also being a disaster had at least a better button mapping options. You could map literally everything to the keyboard and emulate a consoler. That's impossible on DaS2 without mods.

There are a few design decisions in DS2 i don't understand. For example: Why are my weapons made from wet tissue paper now and get magically repaired when I reach a bonfire?

The low weapon durability was a good decision going wrong. Weapon durability was a non-issue in DaS1. It took you 1-20 souls to repair and was more annoying than anything else.
They tried to make weapon durability a important factor, but then they overdid it. They balanced the weapon durability so badly that it's just stupid. Hitting a corps will take away 4 times more durability points than hitting a living enemy and 2 times more than hitting a wall. Yup, you read it right. Hitting a dead body will damage your weapon 2 times more than hitting a brickwall.

Oh, remember the things tied in to the framerate? Well, it's here as well. So if you have a solid 60 FPS, your weapon will melt like butter in Iron Keep because the game takes into account the amount of frames your weapon is inside a dead body! Awesome, right?


Remember how Wipes were useless in DaS1? Hey, From fixed them. They are now great. Except that you need 4 of them in order to mover from one bonfire to another.

EDIT:
I don't see how "designed with controller in mind" is a excuse. It's not a excuse, it's bullshit.

Just the left side of the keyboard has over 47 keys plus shift, ctrl, alt and tab. That's 47*5 or 235 keys/key combination (just 2 keys combinations, adding 3 would drastically increase the number).
Now even the most basic mouse has 2 side buttons.

There is literally no excuse that From didn't allow to bind keys to all those buttons. It's literally inexcusable.
Dark Souls isn't some unique game with controlled deeper than any other game ever made. If a fucking MMO like WoW, with tons of different spells can have a playable control layout, there is no excuse that anyone game with less commands can't have good KB&M controls.
The bad KB&M control layout and inability to customize it is pure laziness on From's side. The fact that they didn't bother to change the tutorial signs based on your control scheme just proves it. The game already has memorized your controls, making it show the key binding is literally one line of code. The game only needs to read you the control layout, find the right key and show it on display rather than just displaying the 360 controller buttons.

This is some of the most basic things. If you buy a PC game, you expect a fucking PC game.

 

[ninja666]

But alas, i will have to disappoint you, i dont run a parry-build. None of my builds are designed for parry in mind. But i dearly hope you can roll fast enough to avoid being backstabbed by a Greatsword. Rolling > Parry. Just saying.

Hihi, that made me chuckle, since you can't even grasp very simple concepts, like what "fact" means and how some things can only be judged subjectively and since you say you are not biased you obviously don't know what that means either.

Honestly, I don't give a fuck about your build. I don't give a fuck about how you play the game at all either. I just stated that the game was designed with controller in mind and no amount of elitist bullshit is going to change that. Playing with the keyboard and mouse can be comfortable, you're welcome to do so, and it is indeed a matter of preference. That doesn't change the fact that the game plays better with a controller because it was initially a console game, so the creators did their best to adapt it to consoles and their principles of operating everything.

 

[A-D.]

That doesn't change the fact that the game plays better with a controller

Wrong. Im not even going to list the myriad of examples to prove that simply playing with a controller does not make the game magically better or easier. Also you keep using the word "elitist", i dont think it means what you think it means.

 

[ninja666]

That doesn't change the fact that the game plays better with a controller

Wrong. Im not even going to list the myriad of examples to prove that simply playing with a controller does not make the game magically better or easier. Also you keep using the word "elitist", i dont think it means what you think it means.

Dude, what you're trying to prove is that a console game that got a barebones PC port of its first release and a slightly-better-but-still-a-port of its sequel is better off played on a device that wasn't designed to control it in the first place - a keyboard. The devs did what they could, but the keyboard-mouse controls for those games aren't what I'd expect. That's why I just accepted the game has to be played with a controller, picked it up and started playing, like a normal, civilized person. What you do, is trying to force me to think that I'm wrong and basically whine all over the thread because the standards for PC quality weren't perfectly met. If that's not elitist, I don't know what it is.

BTW. You also play fighting games and sport games with a keyboard, just because it's more PC?

 

[Chris Tian]

If that's not elitist, I don't know what it is.

The ironie here is extremely funny, since all we ever said was that, which input device is best is a completely subjective matter. You are the one who tries to tell us that your opinion, the controller is best for the game, is the universal truth.

The term "elitist" doesn't apply here in either case, but the way you use it you are the elitist one here.

 

[Trunkage]

snip

I get the feeling we are misunderstanding each other, so I will try a different approach.

Porting a game is a complex task and I couldn't do it. I assume you could neither from what I have read so far. I don't deny that.

A trained and experienced profesional, who gets paid to do that, could do that without a problem if he puts his mind to it.

That is my basic point. So excusing a bad port with "Porting is really hard" is not an option if a trained, experienced and paid profesional did it.

To my friend: They develop a Multyplayer FPS with the goal of publishing it across platforms, he is lead programmer and/or designer, I am not 100% sure if he is lead on both. Like i said they are small and this is their first project, but they scored a major investor a few weeks back so things are looking pretty good for them.

To the emulators: A friend of mine played the Final Fantasy games and the Metal Gear games on PC without any major problems that could just as easily occour with a bought version. So I stand by my statement that unpaid non-profesionals can make console games work on Pc, I never said its perfect or anything, but it still makes my point that it can't be that hard then.

Emphasis mine.

One of the first things that I said was that you can't expect good porting from From Software because they AREN'T experienced, and you should have known that. On the whole, the port is much better than I thought it would be, given that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_developed_by_From_Software

Count the PC ports. Does this look like an experienced pro team to you?

I don't trust your friend's judgement on AAA porting if he's not even finished his first project.

Also, the fact that emulators work doesn't mean much. I mean, the Dark Souls 2 port works, doesn't it? I also got a Final Fantasy game working, but the setup (not even the legal loopholes, I mean the driver setup) required on my end was so ludicrous that it wasn't even worth it. That's a terrible porting job, don't you think?

I think you're now stretching things. They said they were going to do a port, its their responsibility to make sure the port is done at least adequately. Particularly something like controls and timing. I would expect it either way. Its not like they didn't make plenty of money last time and can't afford a couple extra specialised people on contract.

I would be like saying I'm going to build a major bridge, and then make it out of wood. It can function, but is likely to break if stressed and the timing isn't right.