The point of Avatar, why empathy is important and why humans are like cancer

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House_Vet

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NeutralDrow said:
That doesn't invalidate my point at all. Humans are a convenient delivery vehicle, but they didn't goad the cats into exterminating local bird species, or other animals into destroying vegetation and species. It would have been no different if the animals had been introduced in some other way (forced migration, washing ashore, etc.).
We did however contribute to their establishment and early survival and if you can find ANY non-human introduced vertebrate species which have gone on to take over an ecosystem, I'll take my point back.

The cats kill local marsupials (un-evolved to cope with small tree-climbing predators) more than birds (AFAIK)
 

cocoadog

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Internet Kraken said:
Asimov said:
People say that chopping down a tree isn't bad because it has no emotions. I say that chopping a tree down is just as bad as chopping a human's legs off and leaving him/her to bleed to death.
I'm sorry, but are you serious? This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. I mean really, you think it's wrong to chop down trees? What the hell?
ya i liked the movie, but when i saw that i burst out laughing.
 

BGH122

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I really hope this is a joke/troll thread.

There's many legitimate reasons to prefer human beings over other organisms, but here's the main one: only other human beings (to our knowledge) can have any significant impact upon human knowledge. Want to live for ever? Want to cure all famine, natural disasters and political strife? Want to solve all the problems the plague us and nature? Go ask a tree to have a go at it.

When we kill a human being we kill someone who could have potentially solved one of the many problems with which we're plagued, even if only by proxy. Your argument, OP, is pointless and axiomatic; you just state that we should like nature for the sake of liking nature. This doesn't have any apparent worth to anyone other than those who already agree with you for their own personal reasons.

Empathy is necessary in human-human relationships because it allows to do two useful things: prevent ourselves from harming our fellow humans, thus indirectly benefiting humanity's knowledge, allow us to see other people as worthwhile, thus quelling any delusions of grandeur which lead to dogmatic opinion and harms human knowledge.

I do not believe you have fathomed the reason humanity is superior to every other known organism, nor the reason that empathy is useful. I hope this helped somewhat.
 

carpathic

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Meh, we are just as exploitative of other humans as we are of the environment. That said, we are no different from any other species. It is a law in environmental science (I cannot remember the name right now) that a successful species will inevitably out compete itself, thus making its own environment uninhabitable.

Think about the ultimate tiger...It is so good at hunting that nothing can escape it, because of its incredible prowess it has many offspring, eventually it must chase after prey items that it typically would not. It either has to bow to evolutionary pressures or die out as its energy budget will remain virtually unchanged. Anyway, it is this propensity to effect change in the environment that forces us (all creatures) to evolve. Global warming etc, is nothing more than an expression of our own bestial nature. We will be forced to adapt in some manner, or we will die.
 

Rahnzan

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10 dead in plane crash is a statistic. Man kicks dog for fun is a tragedy.
 

House_Vet

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BGH122 said:
I really hope this is a joke/troll thread.

There's many legitimate reasons to prefer human beings over other organisms, but here's the main one: only other human beings (to our knowledge) can have any significant impact upon human knowledge. Want to live for ever? Want to cure all famine, natural disasters and political strife? Want to solve all the problems the plague us and nature? Go ask a tree to have a go at it.
Really? So you mean that our understanding of anatomy, physiology... hell, all biological sciences is in some kind of vacuum away from nature? That sounds like a pretty damn big impact on human knowledge to me. And yes, these things do matter to us. You want to beat viruses? Look at how famine can be avoided? **** yes you should ask a tree/animal/non-human because we did not pull these ideas out of nowhere.

There is great value in nature, or my life is being utterly wasted.
 

InfernoJesus

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Not all living things are equal because we care less about certain living things' existence. We value the lives of other humans because humans play a part in our lives and affect us more than a tree or a bird.

You could go ahead and preach religiously about how "all life is equal", but the fact of the matter is that humans are less affected by certain animals and even certain people than others, therefor we care less about the species or person that has less of an impact on us. This is natural.

If I was in the position that the antagonist was in in Avatar, I would likely make the same choice that he did, simply because it made the most sense. The species were unwilling to give up the resource, the resource could easily be obtained by destroying the tree, and there would have been no reason not to destroy the tree if the protagonist hadn't sided with the blue people. The fact that the blue people liked the tree would have had no effect on my life and would have made no difference to me, therefor the tree's life has no value to me.
 

BGH122

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House_Vet said:
Really? So you mean that our understanding of anatomy, physiology... hell, all biological sciences is in some kind of vacuum away from nature? That sounds like a pretty damn big impact on human knowledge to me. And yes, these things do matter to us. You want to beat viruses? Look at how famine can be avoided? **** yes you should ask a tree/animal/non-human because we did not pull these ideas out of nowhere.
This misses the point. Certainly we can learn things about nature from nature, but were that organism to no longer exist, were we to destroy everything which is of no immediate benefit to us (as is suggested by the OP) then this knowledge would be obsolete.

And no, you should not go and ask a tree. That literally makes no sense. Any advances that were made on the basis of knowledge garnered from the tree did not come from the tree, it came from the machinations of the human mind interpreting the data the tree unknowingly gave.

I am not saying that nature is without value, certainly useful chemical knowledge can be extracted from nature that would be very hard to study otherwise, but the OP is against this very exploitation of nature for human gain. Your argument and his cannot coincide, for in order to feel equal empathy to nature as one would feel to humans nearly all the scientific knowledge gained by exploiting nature (killing and dissecting, animal trials etc) would be impossible to achieve. You cannot simultaneously claim to consider yourself equal to nature, or at least in hold nature in loving esteem equal to that of humanity and be okay with experimenting ruthlessly upon it in a manner that would not be acceptable if conducted upon a human. This appears to defeat your post.

House_Vet said:
There is great value in nature, or my life is being utterly wasted.
Untrue, veterinary medicine does not exist in order to keep nature buzzing. For the main part it exists in order to keep those animals which provide use to humanity alive: farm animals, pets, zoo animals etc. This provides use to humanity as a whole. If you choose to use your skills in an inefficient manner, acting as if nature has equal importance to humanity, then that is your own decision, but your skillset is not inherently useless.
 

Warped_Ghost

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eels05 said:
I dont quite agree with you on the point you making about empathy.
I agree its selective,but its also selectivley applied to other humans as well,The Holocust,The Inquisition etc.
I think our technology is progressing faster than our ability to gauge its impact on our lives and the world around us.
Just a side note in a genocidle act the way the leaders or the culture gets the society to kill people because of their race or beliefs is to dehumanize them first.
-dehumanize the enemy I mean
 

Lavi

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InfernoJesus said:
If I was in the position that the antagonist was in in Avatar, I would likely make the same choice that he did, simply because it made the most sense. The species were unwilling to give up the resource, the resource could easily be obtained by destroying the tree, and there would have been no reason not to destroy the tree if the protagonist hadn't sided with the blue people. The fact that the blue people liked the tree would have had no effect on my life and would have made no difference to me, therefor the tree's life has no value to me.
Yup, time to justify the slaughter of millions indigenous people cause they sat on shit people wanted -.-
 

NeutralDrow

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House_Vet said:
NeutralDrow said:
That doesn't invalidate my point at all. Humans are a convenient delivery vehicle, but they didn't goad the cats into exterminating local bird species, or other animals into destroying vegetation and species. It would have been no different if the animals had been introduced in some other way (forced migration, washing ashore, etc.).
We did however contribute to their establishment and early survival and if you can find ANY non-human introduced vertebrate species which have gone on to take over an ecosystem, I'll take my point back.
Assumedly several species of dinosaur, which is still not my point. My point was that this

"I'd like to share a revelation I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we...are the cure."
is bullshit.

That's why I'm saying the vector doesn't matter in my argument. Human-introduced or not, animal species are perfectly capable of overconsumption and habitat destruction. It's nothing unique to humanity.
 

Burst6

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HAH.

cancer...

human beings are animals, simple as that. Our technology means nothing we're still animals, and we're the best animals. top of the food chain. our instincts as omnivores tell us to survive, protect our territory, and work for the betterment of ourselves or our group.

The only reason humans do more damage to nature is because we don't have a natural enemy except ourselves. I think it's why war exists. Ever notice how fighting between certain groups stops when something bigger threatens them all, but it goes on when the threat is averted?

truth is if , say, dolphins became as advanced as us they would do the same.

Blame nature, and wait until we develop cyberbrains or something.

Also when you cut a tree in half, it grows back. When you cut a person in half, it does not grow back.
 

Winter Rat

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Asimov said:
People say that chopping down a tree isn't bad because it has no emotions. I say that chopping a tree down is just as bad as chopping a human's legs off and leaving him/her to bleed to death.
Soooo, by your logic eating broccoli is the same as cutting of a human's genitalia, cooking and eating it? What do you eat? Unliving synthesized protein chains? If not you are a horrific cannibal.

Avatar was a lame special effects extravaganza with a boring screenplay, painfully predictable plot, hollow archetypal characters, and a bunch of claptrap about "empathy" and saving the environment shoehorned in between CG effects shots. Horrifically overrated.
 

RatRace123

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Dec 1, 2009
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As much as I hate humanity in general, and I prefer animals (some anyway, mainly dogs and cats)

This sounds like some hippy rant on how Avatar is the greatest lesson any of us unworthy humans could ever learn.

Also, people don't just chop down trees, we light them on fire, we run them over in our big ass vehicles, and occasionally we scratch them in movies to let the audience know how badass a character is. I can safely say, until trees gain sentience and evoke their retribution, we shouldn't care what they think.
 

Mcupobob

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I'm getting sick of stories that boil down to, Humans are shit and so are you, all humans should die ect ect ect. Thats not a good way to tell people to change their behavior, and if they do listen they are more likey to become self-rightous dushbags instead.

Also the earth is fine its been through worse and when we are gone it will move on without a second thought.
 

OtherSideofSky

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OT, you say that in real life "we don't SEE what we are doing". If we don't see what we are doing than how can we, or in this case you, know what it is? I say "you" because I certainly would never claim to know what humanity, as a species, is doing in the larger scheme of things or attempt to pass any qualitative judgment upon it. Please do not be offended if this sounds insulting: I would genuinely like an answer to this question but, regretably, cannot think how to phrase it more politely.

You also point out that we feel greater empathy for other humans than we do for any other living creature. I would say that this is certainly true, but I also feel that it is not something which can be changed or which has any definite moral implication, but rather something which is natural to any form of consciousness. I doubt that I, or any other person, could really understand a tree, or even something like a monkey, which is more closely related to us, because, as you said, "we are not like them". What you seem to gloss over, however, is that they are equally unlike eachother. We are not the sole purveyors of evil in this world, but rather partly evil inhabitants in a partly evil world. By this I mean that there is evil in everything and that nothing can be done to change that. Nothing without evil in it can exist in such a universe. In the end, all we can do is remain conscious of the evil around us and the evil we commit.

Additionally, several posters in this topic have compared humanity to a disease or to a cancer. I would first like to point out that most diseases, like humanity and unlike a cancer, are comprised of living organism which, like all life forms, survive and multiply by consuming their environment. A cancer, on the other hand, is a destructive and uncontrolled growth within an organism made up of that organisms cells. In this comparison, humanity would be a part of nature destroying the rest by its uncontrolled expansion, which is possible although I believe nature as a whole to be far more resilient and adaptable than that. In any case, I don't believe that humans are any different from other forms of life in regard to the actions which prompt such comparisons, we merely understand our own actions better than we understand those of other species and chose to regard ourselves as seperate from the rest of the natural world of which we are a part. I therefore feel that such comparisons fall somewhat short of the system at work, although I must confess that in the absence of absolute perception I see no way to grasp it full scope and proccess. Based on what I do know, an oruboros might be a better metaphor for life.

On the subject of Avatar, I minded the actual plot much less than the one-note characters and found that, while the effects were wonderfully executed, the actual design of the film's world was rather uninspired and poorly thought-out. It was not a particularly bad film, but I feel that it could have been an awful lot better.

Also, Internet Kraken, how do you know what parasites are aware of or care about? I don't neccessarily disagree with you, I just wondered if you have a source or are just guessing. I would also like to ask the people you responded to with that comment what, exactly, humanity is supposed to be parasitic TO. We can't be parasitic to nature, unless we came from another planet or something, because we're part of nature, and we don't seem to be parasitic to any specific other life form, either. Are we supposed to be parasitic to the planet itself? Is it even possible to be parasitic to a giant ball of rock? And, if it is possible, wouldn't that make all life parasytes?
 

Ham_authority95

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Irridium said:
We do have empathy for other animals that aren't cute.

Lots of species are protected by law, and there are people always working to make sure animals have comfortable lives.

There are forest preserves that protect many animals and plants, and on some people are forbidden by law to enter. Does everyone listen to the law? No, but without forest preserves, the endagered species list, many species of animals and many forests/jungles would be gone today.

Many important people today and in history have put nature conservation at the top of their list. Teddy Roosevelt enacted some of the U.S.'s first nature preserves. And even in the modern era, high political figures campaign for enviornmental protection.

Sadly most people don't care, which really makes me want to cry.

But my point is that there are people who don't care about animals or nature, but there are also those who do. And they are working as hard as they can to preserve it.

Not all humans are like cancer. Most people are, but there is a crapload of people who give a damn and are trying to help.
Pretty much my thoughts right here
 

Slycne

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House_Vet said:
NeutralDrow said:
That doesn't invalidate my point at all. Humans are a convenient delivery vehicle, but they didn't goad the cats into exterminating local bird species, or other animals into destroying vegetation and species. It would have been no different if the animals had been introduced in some other way (forced migration, washing ashore, etc.).
We did however contribute to their establishment and early survival and if you can find ANY non-human introduced vertebrate species which have gone on to take over an ecosystem, I'll take my point back.

The cats kill local marsupials (un-evolved to cope with small tree-climbing predators) more than birds (AFAIK)
Millions and millions of years of evolution, natural selection and species coming and going extinct, long before humans were ever around, and you need us to point out a specific species?
 

Zildjin81

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Internet Kraken said:
SnipErlite said:
Humans sort of are like cancer - described as such by a certain Agent.........
No

That is the worst way to describe the human race. It's completely inaccurate, and I can't believe that some people here that speech and actually agree with it.

Humans are not like a disease. We're far more complex than that.
Thank you for basically using all of the arguments that I would have to tell these guys that they're stupid. You have saved me much time and effort :)