The point of Avatar, why empathy is important and why humans are like cancer

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dontworryaboutit

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What would an indigenous struggle be without a white male to lead it?

Also, I saw this film two days after seeing District 9 for the first time and I was unsurprisingly disappointed by Avatar's extremely feeble attempt at the same message. I guess those 14 or so years of production were mostly spent on taking Earth creatures, removing hair and adding legs after dyeing them blue.
 

blank0000

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Though I appreciate your passion, you seem to have a very distinct generalization of how humanity functions. Who has told you "hey, kill dem trees" or "slay the animals" specifically. People ar'nt cruel on purpose, their are to many other interesting things to do. The reasons behind deforestation and extinction are much more complicated then you let on.
 

Booze Zombie

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Asimov said:
If we felt empathy for every living thing, our world would be so much better and people would get the damn point when watching Avatar. Jesus christ....
Yes, I'm sure James Cameron was really empathetic during the 15 years he sat around wasting between 237-472 millon dollars on fancy special effects, that's how important his message to us was.

"That's right, CONSUMER, I, HOLLYWOOD DIRECTER, say YOU are greedy and evil, NOT I."

Fuck you, James Cameron.
 

Zildjin81

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Nibbles said:
Arcticflame said:
Err, chopping down a tree isn't wrong. (With exceptions of course)
The point with avatar is that the trees weren't just trees, they were a network that the natives connected with on a spiritual, and apparently also on a physical level.

They weren't just trees in avatar, unlike the trees we have on earth.
... I'm not sure how to word how stupid that is so this might fail: I'm pretty sure the Indigenous around the world do exactly that with our trees.

EDIT: To the below, everything is better with aliens.[/quote

Forgive me if I'm misreading your nonsensical aggregation of words there but, are you saying that the trees on earth are all cells that form a sentient being? Are you trying to tell me that trees have feelings and thought?
 

Kurokami

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Asimov said:
Avatar has been getting a lot of hate here at the escapist for one big reason- the unoriginal plot. But, and I have said this in other threads, the plot isn't the point of the movie. The point of it is to get you immersed in an amazing world and use it to drive a point home.

Some people say that the message is exxagerated, with the humans being sadistic, nature-hating douchebags who put no value on life. They are wrong in many ways. Humans do the exact same thing in real life, but instead of killing the opposition, they ignore them completely. Also, what the humans were doing on Pandora has nothing on what people do in real life. We cut down practically whole forests every day and kill untold amounts of animal species so we can live a life of decadent luxery and excess. We kill any animal that poses a threat and save room only for the ones we think are cute.

The difference between real life and Avatar is that we don't SEE what we are doing to the planet and Earth isn't as majestic or beautiful as Pandora in the eyes of many people, although I believe it is. We are just jaded and think we've seen everything there is to see on Earth. We are like a cancer, a natural part of the system that has grown out of control and is beginning to kill the system that gave birth to it.

I believe I know why we do this too- we have no Empathy. Empathy is feeling connected emotionally to other things. We assume that because we have been more successful as a species and are smart that we are in a league of our own. We would kill hundreds of animals to save one human life, because we can relate to people. We know what it feels like to be human and identify with other humans. We feel empathy for them.

We feel no empathy whatsoever to other animals because we are not like them. Think about it- if you felt as much sadness for the death of any living thing as the death of a person, what would the world be like. Also people feel even less empathy for plants because they can't move or emote and have no faces. People say that chopping down a tree isn't bad because it has no emotions. I say that chopping a tree down is just as bad as chopping a human's legs off and leaving him/her to bleed to death. The only opposition for killing plants is the environmental impact and the fact that many plants are pretty, which is good, but a different point entirely.

We love dogs and cats as pets because they like us and (for the most part) won't hurt us. Some people say that eating a dog is horrible (some cultures do that). When I ask them why, they simply answer "because it's a dog". Eating a dog is no worse than eating a pig or a cow. They are all living creatures. If we felt empathy for every living thing, our world would be so much better and people would get the damn point when watching Avatar. Jesus christ....
People get the point, but why should I care? The only reason avatar's 'nature is beautiful' thing got to me was because we could associate to the alien species and THEY could associate with the plants and the earth. If the aliens had no attachment to the planet then no one who watched the movie would really give a fuck, would they? I sure as hell don't care about this planet much provided we can find another to go to. Whats out there that's gonna impress me? Natures been killing humans for generations, we spent a large portion of our existence developing ways of keeping it at bay and then there's people who think that if we go outside and hug nature then it will hug us back kindly. Do we rely on nature to survive? sure, are we some sort of virus plaguing this planet, sure. But as part of the virus I'm not gonna be expected to say "hold on, lets find the cure", cause I already know it. Point and shoot.

Zildjin81 said:
Nibbles said:
Arcticflame said:
Err, chopping down a tree isn't wrong. (With exceptions of course)
The point with avatar is that the trees weren't just trees, they were a network that the natives connected with on a spiritual, and apparently also on a physical level.

They weren't just trees in avatar, unlike the trees we have on earth.
... I'm not sure how to word how stupid that is so this might fail: I'm pretty sure the Indigenous around the world do exactly that with our trees.

EDIT: To the below, everything is better with aliens.[/quote

Forgive me if I'm misreading your nonsensical aggregation of words there but, are you saying that the trees on earth are all cells that form a sentient being? Are you trying to tell me that trees have feelings and thought?
Sounds to me like he's saying that that's what indigenous people think, of course without science to prove it in our society it means very little, especially since the indigenous would often rather get high off whatever fumes they can find.
 

Jeronus

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You act as if animals have more empathy than humans. They don't. They want to survive. Some species of animals are extinct because they weren't able to adapt enough to survive the predators in their environment. Beavers cut down trees for their homes and squirrels make their homes out of them. Are you going to scold them for ignoring the feeling of the trees. Nature is about survival of the fittest and animals have as little empathy for nature as we do.
 

Kurokami

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Jeronus said:
You act as if animals have more empathy than humans. They don't. They want to survive. Some species of animals are extinct because they weren't able to adapt enough to survive the predators in their environment. Beavers cut down trees for their homes and squirrels make their homes out of them. Are you going to scold them for ignoring the feeling of the trees. Nature is about survival of the fittest and animals have as little empathy for nature as we do.
Clearly having this discussion we have more empathy, animals simply don't have the capacity and much less the trees.

(I'm agreeing with you, but I wanted to clarify its the capacity we have that they don't)
 

Internet Kraken

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Booze Zombie said:
Asimov said:
If we felt empathy for every living thing, our world would be so much better and people would get the damn point when watching Avatar. Jesus christ....
Yes, I'm sure James Cameron was really empathetic during the 15 years he sat around wasting between 237-472 millon dollars on fancy special effects, that's how important his message to us was.

"That's right, CONSUMER, I, HOLLYWOOD DIRECTER, say YOU are greedy and evil, NOT I."

Fuck you, James Cameron.
I always found it humorous how this movie was advertised by corporations that go directly against it's message.

I don't think Cameron gave a toss about his movies message. He just wanted to show off some pretty effects.
 

park92

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i didn't feel any sympathy for the blue guys i was like go humans the entire movie
 

teutonicman

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How do we not know that everyone back on earth in the movie isn't eating a giant poverty shit sandwich? Now if the only way to bring ourselves out of crushing amounts of poverty is with a poorly named mineral.... well than fuck 'em. I'll help them build a new home and supply them with whatever they desire but still...... fuck 'em.
 

DRTJR

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I am going to say When battling indigenous life use Napalm it worked in 'nam it should work on Na'vi
 

dontworryaboutit

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DRTJR said:
I am going to say When battling indigenous life use Napalm it worked in 'nam it should work on Na'vi
You're forgetting the fact that the Vietnamese shit all over America.

But that's not the point. The point is that mankind has been morally dead for dozens of years and deserves all it gets. On the plus side, the murder rate in New York City has dropped to a low not seen since the early 1960s.
 

Mcupobob

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CrossoverManiac said:
I believe this youtube video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzLs60ZaNW4] sums up the OP's mentality quite well.
Yes, glad you posted this.
linky to full ep. here for people who care
http://www.bigvidpro.com/?v=tjDEtoMP3ngjvlim22Mdtg

EDIT: beging to think I was the only one who liked them, also wrong Ep. same idea though.
 

Booze Zombie

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Internet Kraken said:
I always found it humorous how this movie was advertised by corporations that go directly against it's message.

I don't think Cameron gave a toss about his movies message. He just wanted to show off some pretty effects.
I do think he cared to a degree... giving his film "a message" meant he could rally a very vocal group of people behind his movie, environmentalists, specifically, light-environmentalists, meaning he had a fanbase willing to defend his movie and himself.

They never see the beautyful irony of cheering on the Avatar movie whilst sitting in crowded theatres, more human than ever, helping fund a business that makes enough waste from pop-corn packaging alone to fill a substantial number of trash heaps.

But, that's humanity for you.
 

Zaksav91

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What can ya do, it's the world for ya, if you don't like it then ummm do something about it.
 

Smagmuck_

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Well sir, as I may not like what you've said, I'll defend to the death your right to say it...
 

Asimov

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Holy shit, I left for like 10 minutes and a whole lot of people replied. I'll try to answer all topics brought up here.

Internet Kraken said:
Asimov said:
People say that chopping down a tree isn't bad because it has no emotions. I say that chopping a tree down is just as bad as chopping a human's legs off and leaving him/her to bleed to death.
I'm sorry, but are you serious? This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. I mean really, you think it's wrong to chop down trees? What the hell?
okay that was majorly overstated, I'll admit, but for the TREE it's the same, albeit if the person was given major painkillers. And yes, I do think it is wrong to chop down trees, as long as we don't need to do it. If we need to for shelter or firewood, fine by me, but we overuse paper to a ridiculous extent. We have computers, we don't need nearly as much paper as we use.

quote="LockeDown" post="18.165525.4362701"]I feel bad for the countless animals slaughtered to keep me fed for the past twenty-odd years. However, the will to survive is far stronger than the remorse I feel for their death. Their sacrifice was necessary for my survival or betterment, and I have since rationalized this in order to sooth my regrets.

Humans aren't cancer (okay, some are), we're just self-serving, just like every other creature on the planet. Don't think for a second that your faithful dog wouldn't eat you in a second if its survival came into question.[/quote]

The thing is that their killing wasn't necessary for your survival or betterment. We kill 2,000 cows every year to make footballs for the NFL. 2,000 living things, slaughtered so we can WATCH someone play a game. That's not survival or betterment, that's decadence.

[
kotorfan04 said:
... Pure retardation. Trees don't have a FUCKING nervous system. They can't feel pain. Okay I get it humans don't respect the environment, and maybe keeping the place we live decent might be a good idea. But still either way Mr. Hippy we are going to be killing trees to make houses, and killing animals to make our dinner. I kind of lost my train of thought now, but anyways yeah.
Once again, I overstated that, and it was a person on major painkillers lets say. Also, once again, we don't just use what we need, we use exponentially more. Oh, and wow, calling people who love nature hippies, just wow. Hippies stand for something besides tree-hugging.

House_Vet said:
Whilst I certainly agree with your line of argument, some of it is a little overblown (the trees = legs bit) and let's not forget that the Na'vi aren't veggie either. We don't kill and eat dogs because of their usefulness to our society. They are much more suited to working for us, or being our companions than eating food. This message is ingrained in western thinking, to the extent that most people can't tell you why they won't eat dog.

There is another issue here - that of conciousness and rational thought. We don't eat apes (too smart and too like us) and we probably shouldn't eat pigs (very smart). The question is where we draw the line. I love animals - hell, I'm devoting the next 5 years of my life (and the past 2) to studying them so I can help them as a vet.

As a society, we lack true empathy as you said. I hope Avatar can start something in that respect - it certainly has a wide enough audience.
I do agree with you and you answered my question about the dogs. I'm not saying that we should eat them instead of pigs, just that I didn't get why people consider eating dogs "wrong" or "gross". Also, you sir, are a good person.

Internet Kraken said:
SnipErlite said:
Just, say we found a new planet rich with resources, it would not surprise me if we went in, took everything useful (thereby draining it) and left.

But maybe I'm just a massive cynic :)
If we found a planet full of resources, we would utilize it. No point in letting those resources go to waste. However, that's not a bad thing. And I guarantee we would make attempts to renew all possible resources.

Poofs said:
go hug a tree
btw the movies plot was basically a remake of Pocahontas oly with more aliens and some interspecies sex thrown into the mix
really! Really!? Go hug a tree!? Why don't you think of a counter-argument instead of just insulting me. But I havn't seen Pocahontas so I can't comment on that part.

OtherSideofSky said:
OT, you say that in real life "we don't SEE what we are doing". If we don't see what we are doing than how can we, or in this case you, know what it is? I say "you" because I certainly would never claim to know what humanity, as a species, is doing in the larger scheme of things or attempt to pass any qualitative judgment upon it. Please do not be offended if this sounds insulting: I would genuinely like an answer to this question but, regretably, cannot think how to phrase it more politely.

You also point out that we feel greater empathy for other humans than we do for any other living creature. I would say that this is certainly true, but I also feel that it is not something which can be changed or which has any definite moral implication, but rather something which is natural to any form of consciousness. I doubt that I, or any other person, could really understand a tree, or even something like a monkey, which is more closely related to us, because, as you said, "we are not like them". What you seem to gloss over, however, is that they are equally unlike eachother. We are not the sole purveyors of evil in this world, but rather partly evil inhabitants in a partly evil world. By this I mean that there is evil in everything and that nothing can be done to change that. Nothing without evil in it can exist in such a universe. In the end, all we can do is remain conscious of the evil around us and the evil we commit.

Additionally, several posters in this topic have compared humanity to a disease or to a cancer. I would first like to point out that most diseases, like humanity and unlike a cancer, are comprised of living organism which, like all life forms, survive and multiply by consuming their environment. A cancer, on the other hand, is a destructive and uncontrolled growth within an organism made up of that organisms cells. In this comparison, humanity would be a part of nature destroying the rest by its uncontrolled expansion, which is possible although I believe nature as a whole to be far more resilient and adaptable than that. In any case, I don't believe that humans are any different from other forms of life in regard to the actions which prompt such comparisons, we merely understand our own actions better than we understand those of other species and chose to regard ourselves as seperate from the rest of the natural world of which we are a part. I therefore feel that such comparisons fall somewhat short of the system at work, although I must confess that in the absence of absolute perception I see no way to grasp it full scope and proccess. Based on what I do know, an oruboros might be a better metaphor for life.

On the subject of Avatar, I minded the actual plot much less than the one-note characters and found that, while the effects were wonderfully executed, the actual design of the film's world was rather uninspired and poorly thought-out. It was not a particularly bad film, but I feel that it could have been an awful lot better.

Also, Internet Kraken, how do you know what parasites are aware of or care about? I don't neccessarily disagree with you, I just wondered if you have a source or are just guessing. I would also like to ask the people you responded to with that comment what, exactly, humanity is supposed to be parasitic TO. We can't be parasitic to nature, unless we came from another planet or something, because we're part of nature, and we don't seem to be parasitic to any specific other life form, either. Are we supposed to be parasitic to the planet itself? Is it even possible to be parasitic to a giant ball of rock? And, if it is possible, wouldn't that make all life parasytes?
I think you misinterpereted me on the "seeing" thing. I meant that we can't physically see what is happening because we are not there while it happens. However, we do still know about it through reports from journalists and the people doing it themselves. Also, I see no reason to be offended, you made a valid point. To answer your second paragraph, yes I know that we cannot humanly feel as much empathy for other organisms as we do people, but most people don't even try. Humans are evil not because they kill, heck no, we would be effectively killing OURSELVES if we didn't, but we kill needlessly. Also, you're right, cancer was a bad example. A virus would be better, although I chose cancer because it destroys the system that created it, much like we are doing to Earth. And I don't mean Earth literally, like the ball of rock, but rather all of the life that lives and grows on it. That is what we are parasitic to.

BGH122 said:
I really hope this is a joke/troll thread.

There's many legitimate reasons to prefer human beings over other organisms, but here's the main one: only other human beings (to our knowledge) can have any significant impact upon human knowledge. Want to live for ever? Want to cure all famine, natural disasters and political strife? Want to solve all the problems the plague us and nature? Go ask a tree to have a go at it.

When we kill a human being we kill someone who could have potentially solved one of the many problems with which we're plagued, even if only by proxy. Your argument, OP, is pointless and axiomatic; you just state that we should like nature for the sake of liking nature. This doesn't have any apparent worth to anyone other than those who already agree with you for their own personal reasons.

Empathy is necessary in human-human relationships because it allows to do two useful things: prevent ourselves from harming our fellow humans, thus indirectly benefiting humanity's knowledge, allow us to see other people as worthwhile, thus quelling any delusions of grandeur which lead to dogmatic opinion and harms human knowledge.

I do not believe you have fathomed the reason humanity is superior to every other known organism, nor the reason that empathy is useful. I hope this helped somewhat.
This is exactly what I am talking about- you feel no empathy. You are saying that we shouldn't care because it doesn't directly benefiet us. If we applied that thinking to humans we would kill our species practically overnight. Also,Humanity is superior in terms of brains and almost nothing else. A bear could shred tons of people if we had the same brain as them. Also, I say that we should like nature because it is beautiful and filled with life that has just as much reason to live as us.

Sorry that I couldn't respond to everyone- I'm very pressed for time. I'll come back to talk more tommorow.