The Problem With Games

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Thoughtful_Salt

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The following article was not written by an academic, not by a games journalist, nor a developer with a wealth of experience in the art and systems of video games. It was written in a stream of consciousness late night binge, by a person who wants videogames to reach the promised land of ?High Art?. It exists to generate a discussion, not as a be all and end all of the debate. It asks a question, but may not provide the answer. You have been warned! :)

NOW FOR A WALL OF TEXT!!!!!!


What is art?

Ask that question and you will never get a satisfying answer, from yourself, from anybody.

What exactly is the perspective of the questioneer? What are they seeking as an answer?

If they, or you, are asking in a purely rhetorical fashion, does that imply that the 20 plus hours of playing Skyrim on Master difficulty is somehow not as ?worthy? as watching Beasts Of The Southern Wild?

If they, or you, are seeking a definitive answer, have they/you any artistic background from which the debate can unfold over? If not, then the conversation will inevitably turn towards some outright hostility, as examples are brought up, seniority in years gets bandied about and no destination befitting such a question is even in sight.

If that sounds like pointless drivel trying to lead up to something meaningful, that's because it is.
Which is kind of the problem with most games...


I did not grow up with the supposed ?classics?, the super marios, the zeldas, the dooms nor the Metal Gears. I grew up with Halo, with Fire Emblem, with Golden Sun. Each of these games are derivative, building on tropes and concepts already well established within their respective genres. In the case of Halo: Combat Evolved, it grew from the template well established by Doom and sprinkled in a few elements of Half-Life.

Fire Emblem used the tried and true turn based mechanics of its predecessors and added a huge dose of roleplaying to personalize the experience.

Golden Sun is basically Final Fantasy crossed with Crono Trigger (and some Pokemon....it's a long story).

All three of these games easily slot into the great game discussions (Halo is still considered in the top 20 greatest games of all time by most gaming websites and magazines, and Fire Emblem definitely deserves to be ranked alongside it), but are they ?high art??.

?High Art??. While the solid definition of Art itself hasn't yet been fully established (If you still find yourself asking ?Is it art?? about a particular piece or performance then the question is proof positive of a lack of a universal definition), there are clearly examples of High Art in almost every medium. Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, Shakespeare's Hamlet, Welles' Citizen Kane and Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby, etc, etc, etc.

Works such as those have held up to rigorous critical analysis by academics and popular consensus, and no one is ever going to question that they are the titans, the gold standard for their mediums (keep in mind that there are multiple examples in each field, as there is no work that can be termed ?the greatest? without the termer being subjected to a drubbing worthy of the Cleveland Browns) and serve as a source of inspiration for generations. What game can possibly hold up to that standard?

It seems increasingly clear that the late Roger Ebert, when he made his infamous claims that videogames could never be art, was right...at the time at least. Before his first foray into the white noise of videogame fandom, what games could we point to? Super Mario Bros? Too hallucinogenicaly weird. Half-Life 2? too derivative of modern science fiction to stand on its own legs. What about Shadow Of The Colossus? Metal Gear Solid? Ocarina Of Time? Respectively, maybe, Ha! And the graphics remind me of balloon animals.

Let's be honest, Halo, Mario and Final Fantasy combined weren't enough for people to start attacking every aspect of them, searching for some hidden meaning beyond just being fun games and escapist fantasy. Let's face it, Harry Potter has a better case for being ?High Art? than all of the platformers and adventure games, circa. 2005, could ever be.

However, after Roger Ebert (reffered to hence as A.R.E.), we have a dizzying array of titles that, at the very least, tried. Tried to be something, to say or convey meaningful ideas. A.R.E. Everything started moving forward.



Spec Ops: The Line, a modern military shooter that explored the dark crevasses of the human mind in war, utilizing the mechanics of Gears Of War, the linear pathing and cinematic spectacle of Call Of Duty and a soundtrack of dissonant rock and roll covering the slaughter of your enemies.

Fez, A puzzle platformer, using a perspective switching mechanic to explore the beautiful game world and solve its deepest mysteries. It evokes the joy of exploring the world, in real life and in videogames, and figuring out your place in it.

Dear Esther, a ?game? where you walk around an island (which is hauntingly beautiful) and try and dredge some meaning from fragments of narration and the simple act of exploring the island.

These three examples are, in my opinion, a huge evolutionary leap over the three great games that I opened this article with. They aren't just ?games? (and in one case the word game needs not apply), but experiences, expressions of ideas and the artists' cohesive vision....to an extent. Even these three games (Highly acclaimed by critics ), have several pressing issues which act as a buffer, as the final sticking point when someone says ?If you play this game it will enrich your life?. ?High Art??

To be fair, it's not like any work of art is perfect. Hamlet is, by modern standards at least, almost incomprehensible without translations of its references on the opposite page (If you actually know what ?seek him in the other place?1 means, then by all means slap me when I say it, I will say congratulations for actually staying awake in English Class). The Mona Lisa is vague to the point of fruitless questioning (why exactly is the horizon off-kilter?). Heck, even Citizen Kane gets bandied about more as a trendy catch all then as an enjoyable experience in its own right (I couldn't get past the pterodactyl, and the mere fact that no one hears Kane's last words).

But these flaws arguably enhance the enjoyment of these works, giving a unique insight into the limitations of the respective mediums, and give us a helpful reminder that the artist is merely human, conveying human ideas and emotions in the best way he/she can. It's not like their presence invalidates the deeper meanings, the messages or implied experiences.

So Spec Ops: The Line, it has a multiplayer mode. It's completely generic, and what you would expect from a game like Uncharted or Gears Of War (or as I like to call those games, genocidal bru-haha), not from a serious treatise on Post Traumatic Stress and the horrors of the human soul. The mode exists like a cancerous tumour on the single-player experience, exposing a good half of the content of the game as pure product over art.

Man of Fez's puzzles rely on absurd ways to solve them, in many ways many of the puzzles simply don't deserve such a thought provoking title. A fair amount of them require QR scanners, as in you hold up a smartphone to your television and scan the game. To which I can only say, What!!??

Dear Esther, is not even a game, in the traditional sense, but it's relying on its status as a ?game? to get the player to explore the island, and the player can never influence the outcome, beyond the randomly generated fragments that spew forth from the narrator, which mostly comes off as a cheap attempt to force multiple play throughs.

All three of these games, with the problems they have, raise serious questions towards the high art aspirations of the medium. In SOTL's case, does the presence of an external market force, the multiplayer, invalidate the message of the game? In Fez, does the requirement to have a QR scanner, not as a source of inspiration or creative thinking but as the cardboard door on the advent calender keeping you from your precious chocolate, neglect the exploratory, introspective nature of the game?

Dear Esther raises the most serious question, are we safe even calling it a videogame? Dear Esther is clearly reaching further than Fez and SOTL, in terms of execution at least (SOTL and Fez have a few other issues beyond the major ones posed here 2 3), but is masking itself as a game really the way to convey its deeper meanings? This crisis of identity, while Dear Esther suffers the most from it, infects the entire industry.

This crisis of identity is partially a result of the derivative nature of the medium. There are very few examples of games that sprang up from nowhere, with minimal influence drawn from other mediums. Metal Gear Solid has its roots in 80's action movies, Final Fantasy is a large scale Dungeons and Dragons opera, and Bioshock rips Ayn Rand's philosophies for the purposes of wallpapering its environments and story. That's not to say that there are none (Loneliness, Journey, El Shaddai: Ascension Of The Metatron and Kairo are a few examples), but the influences they draw from often run counter to the element crucial to the whole medium, the concept of ?playing the games?.

A rule set, interacting with the systems of the game, using that interaction to draw meaning. Games are software, and thus while a great story and gorgeous art design can carry a game far, without the successful interaction of those aspects and the systems put in place to govern them, games can not be high art. Some of this barrier comes with the technological limitations of days past, which are slowly being lifted. Some comes from external market forces, and others come from the sometimes withering emphasis on ?fun?. The influences drawn from other mediums can distract as well (various attempts at cinematic gameplay often fall flat due to the often absurd nature of the actions of the player contrasting with the ?reality? of the cinema). So where does this leave us?

If games are art, then where is its high art? A.R.E. That became a sort of rallying call for the newest generation of game developers, and progress has most certainly been made. The spectacle of games has long since faded from its Space Invader launching points, now the message has started to throw its hat into the ring, begging for space. Fez, SOTL and Dear Esther are, at the very least some of the more prominent examples of the heights that the experiences can reach, and I would vey much say that they are worth your time, but with a grain of salt must they be played.

For now, it's ok to find enjoyment, sometimes fulfillment, from playing Red Dead Redemption, Tomb Raider and Skyrim. There's nothing wrong with that, but I, for one, want a game (or experience) to move me, not just kinetically, not in a ?oh, this is so fun? way, but emotionally. I haven't found a game that unifies the systems of its software, Art and Story to a degree where there is no doubt, but when I find it, by god I'll trumpet it to the heavens.

Now, If you'll excuse me, i'm off to raid a dungeon and defeat that damn draugr guarding the final treasure chest.
 

Foolery

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Thoughtful_Salt said:
Fire Emblem used the tried and true turn based mechanics of its predecessors and added a huge dose of roleplaying to personalize the experience.
Fire Emblem has been around since the famicon. Just saying. Japan only up until 2003. But still. It is a classic.
 

SonicWaffle

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Thoughtful_Salt said:
?High Art??. While the solid definition of Art itself hasn't yet been fully established (If you still find yourself asking ?Is it art?? about a particular piece or performance then the question is proof positive of a lack of a universal definition), there are clearly examples of High Art in almost every medium. Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, Shakespeare's Hamlet, Welles' Citizen Kane and Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby, etc, etc, etc.
"We have no standard for what art is, but these things are definitely art"?

Thoughtful_Salt said:
Works such as those have held up to rigorous critical analysis by academics and popular consensus, and no one is ever going to question that they are the titans, the gold standard for their mediums (keep in mind that there are multiple examples in each field, as there is no work that can be termed ?the greatest? without the termer being subjected to a drubbing worthy of the Cleveland Browns) and serve as a source of inspiration for generations. What game can possibly hold up to that standard?
Except that people do question those things, all the time. Hey, do you have opinions? Then you and I probably don't see eye-to-eye on some stuff! You can't say something like Hamlet is an undisputed triumph when there are many people who simply don't like it. Hell, I imagine anyone who had to study Shakespeare in school hates his fucking guts. Without a definition of art, you're labelling stuff as High Art because presumably you, and a bunch of other people, like them.

You mention a crisis of identity, but I think you're missing the point. The crisis of identity regarding games as art is not "will games ever achieve art?". That's a binary choice. Either all games are art, or none are. Once that much is established we can go on to question whether a certain work is good, bad or great art. The crisis games are suffering from is that as a form of art we have so far been largely incapable of separating what makes good art in more traditional mediums from what makes good art in a video game. If you judge a movie by the standards of a painting, it may be nice to look at and well put together, but narratively it sucks and the characters are so two-dimensional.

Games are an interactive medium. Does the quality of the playing experience effect whether the piece is considered good art? I hear good things about Spec Ops, but I played the demo and it handled like dogshit so I never played further. Ocarina of Time may not be the prettiest game in the world, but by God it's a joy to play through. The kind of questions we should be asking is not how video games compare as art using the metric of movies or books, but by how well they stand as art within their own sphere.

Also, not actually related to what I just said, but you put Red Dead Redemption as just a piece of play-and-forget fluff? I find that astonishing. It's one of the most atmospheric and deep gaming experiences I've ever had, and I loved the ultimately futile nature of the storyline. I'd class it as great art, even with the minor glitches and the sometimes iffy control scheme.
 

TehCookie

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Games are art, there was even a supreme court case in the U.S that agreed they were. Masses still don't care, adding a label to gaming will not change what it is. To quote art, "A rose by any other name..." is still a rose.

If you think Dear Esther is pushing the limits to what is a videogame, go play a visual novel. It's pictures and text and you get to click a choice every hour or so (they're more fun than I make it sound). If that level of interactivity is commonly accepted as a game, so is Dear Esther.

Also the amazing, emotionally moving game you're looking for is called Persona 3 :)
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Art is only what you make of it. Nothing more, nothing less. What's moving art to one person is just a discordant collection of colors, pictures, shapes, or sounds to another.

No game can ever be art to you if your expectations are too high.

All games are art. Simultaneously, no games are art. Because there will be people on both sides of the spectrum, and countless anywhere between. There is no strict definition, and you don't need the validation of some critic before you can look at a video game and say "I think that is a work of art."

Or in other words, from the mind of Roger Ebert himself:

Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care.

Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, "I'm studying a great form of art?" Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.
Source. [http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art]

Who was I to say video games didn't have the potential of becoming Art? Someday? There was no agreement among the thousands of posters about even one current game that was an unassailable masterpiece. Shadow of the Colossus came closest. I suppose that's the one I should begin with.

But many other games were also mentioned. If I didn't admire a game, I would be told I played the wrong one. Consider what happened when I responded to the urging of a reader and watched Kellee Santiago's TED talk. It would finally convince me, I was promised, of the art of video games. I watched it. But noooo. Readers told me I had viewed the wrong talk about the wrong games. Besides, arguing with a You Tube video was pointless if I had never played a game.

[. . .]

One thing I brought from this experience was that I lacked a definition of Art.

[. . .]

I required a definition that would exclude video games (those up to this point, anyway) on principle.

I thought about those works of Art that had moved me most deeply. I found most of them had one thing in common: Through them I was able to learn more about the experiences, thoughts and feelings of other people. My empathy was engaged. I could use such lessons to apply to myself and my relationships with others. They could instruct me about life, love, disease and death, principles and morality, humor and tragedy. They might make my life more deep, full and rewarding.

Not a bad definition, I thought. But I was unable to say how music or abstract art could perform those functions, and yet they were Art. Even narrative art didn't qualify, because I hardly look at paintings for their messages. It's not what it's about, but how it's about it. As Archibald MacLeish wrote: A poem should not mean, but be.

I concluded without a definition that satisfied me. I had to be prepared to agree that gamers can have an experience that, for them, is Art. I don't know what they can learn about another human being that way, no matter how much they learn about Human Nature. I don't know if they can be inspired to transcend themselves. Perhaps they can. How can I say? I may be wrong. but if 'm not willing to play a video game to find that out, I should say so. I have books to read and movies to see. I was a fool for mentioning video games in the first place.
Source. [http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/okay-kids-play-on-my-lawn]
 

BarkBarker

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Art is subjective, art is something that you can find a million and one things in it and not find what was intended, I personally find fuck all in the Mona Lisa, but as long as enough people find something that simply cannot have a price placed upon it, it will stay at the top, and I will forever stand on the outside of this group, not giving a shit in eternal bliss that my life is not dampened from some sort of feeling of inadequacy, that I simply cannot comprehend the depth and power of the art is a feeling I have never felt, it they refuse to believe it, so be it, a consensus nor does a single person decide what is art......it just happens.
 

Bostur

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Can a very good, very beautiful vacuum cleaner be high art? No it can't, it's too complex a mechanism to be a unified object. Its shape may be art and it can be put in a museum, but then it's not treated as a vacuum cleaner but as a sculpture.

I feel the same is the case for games. Games are composite things made out of thousands of little elements. They can have subelements that are art, but a game will rarely be able to be a coherent whole. As a matter of fact I think the games that are closest to being a unified piece of art, are the Pongs, Rogues and Space Invaders of the past. Because of their simplicity they get closer to our perception of traditional art.

I still believe Delta was one of those early games that got closest to coherent art, other people will surely have other candidates. It integrates simple graphics, music and gameplay into one. It's really more of a rhytm game than a sidescrolling shooter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02YBWKxDXPI

For now, it's ok to find enjoyment, sometimes fulfillment, from playing Red Dead Redemption, Tomb Raider and Skyrim. There's nothing wrong with that, but I, for one, want a game (or experience) to move me, not just kinetically, not in a "oh, this is so fun" way, but emotionally. I haven't found a game that unifies the systems of its software, Art and Story to a degree where there is no doubt, but when I find it, by god I'll trumpet it to the heavens.
It seems to me you are looking at the vacuum cleaners expecting one to be an epiphany. You probably wont find one that satisfies your expectations. Vacuum cleaners are meant to suck away the dust, not to be art. Games are meant to be enjoyable to play, not to be art.
 

Hero of Lime

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Frankly, I don't care if games are ever considered art. If a game succeeds in giving me a fun experience, that is all I care about. For me, the kind of people we would allow to choose whether games can be art are the types of people who I would not want to associate with, or listen to. Art critics have no power over me when it comes to validating what I care about.

Would I like video games to be respected more in general? Absolutely. Do I care if the high artsy types respect games? Not really.
 

Jimmy T. Malice

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Those QR codes in Fez are actually real QR codes? And here I was thinking they were just another obscure pictogram that you're expected to somehow figure out.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Art is something to communicate a thought or feeling. Games in my opinion can not be art because the whole reason they exist is to make money. Not for its own purpose. Same way a car or a TV cant be labelled art. They can be a great looking object but not art.

Regardless i dont know why its important that games be considered. Who cares. Just enjoy your game. Same with movies, music and everything else in line. Just because games are not art doesnt make them any less important or fun. An as now there are many works of "art" that are frankly just piles of junk that sell more on the label given as opposed the work itself. Then im happy that games are not connected to art.
 

tardcore

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Well Mr. OP, I personally don't care if games are art or not. All I want out of them is that they be fun. And personally as companies have tried to evolve them beyond simple mind rot that goes bing, I feel that games in general have become less fun. They've also become less game for much more money as all this "sound and fury signifying nothing" such as mini movies, voice acting, and overly flashy graphics, take quite a few resources to create. Resources I feel could have been better spent making the game more entertaining and longer. Giving the gamer something to do rather than sit around with his or her finger up their nose waiting for yet another badly acted cutscene to play out.
 

V8 Ninja

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Wait, FEZ requires you to use a QR scanner to solve some of its puzzles? What?! That's BS! I just started playing the game a few days ago! Now I can't finish the game I payed for without consulting outside sources? C'mon!

A Less Agitated Response: If I find a game mechanically interesting and engaging, I consider it art. I'm not exactly picky, as you can tell.
 

Maximum Bert

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TehCookie said:
To quote art, "A rose by any other name..." is still a rose.
huh is that a paraphrase I thought it was "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" which I think was in Romeo and Juliet if my hazy memory is correct.

As for what is art well I dont think it has an answer but for me art is created beauty. So in that sense I would class a small number of games as art. Now high art I have no idea what that is sounds like something some snob came up with to say what they see as art is greater than other art.
 

Gatx

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The thing with videogames is that there's no real comparable example right now. See, paintings, statues, music, books, movies, etc. are things created to be appreciated, to tell stories and so on and so forth. Games on the other hand originated not so much to tell a story but to be fun, and foster competition. They're a series of arbitrary rules to provide a structured experience, like tag or any sport and we don't consider games art.

Consider Setters of Catan - a celebrated, tried and true board game with neatly intertwining rules that balance skill and random luck. You could even say it's beautiful in a way, but would we consider this game, which is basically a collection of components and rules, with no appreciable aesthetic (though it's a pretty good looking board game, let me tell you) or narrative value art? That's arguable of course, but generally speaking it wouldn't be considered "art."

Videogames expanded the scope a bit and tried to achieve that level of storytelling found in movies and books, usually by including a bunch of cutscenes or something, but also by using a set of arbitrary rules and systems to enhance traditional storytelling, but because there's nothing to compare it to, and because of the lineage of "game."
 

vun

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V8 Ninja said:
Wait, FEZ requires you to use a QR scanner to solve some of its puzzles? What?! That's BS! I just started playing the game a few days ago! Now I can't finish the game I payed for without consulting outside sources? C'mon!

A Less Agitated Response: If I find a game mechanically interesting and engaging, I consider it art. I'm not exactly picky, as you can tell.
I also didn't know about the Fez QR thing, and I'm not sure I can be bothered with that really. I think I'm calling Fez done and leaving it where I left off.

As for the games listed; you could argue that Dear Esther is just art, rather than a game. It's a work of art that uses elements from videogames to deliver whatever it has to deliver, rather than a videogame trying to be art(similar to a video installation). Or maybe that's too much hairsplitting. I won't go too deep into this since I don't see much point in spending too much time and effort making a post discussing a neverending subject in a thread that will drown my post anyways. I really enjoyed Dear Esther, one of the most enjoyable experiences I've had on my PC. Spec Ops was good too.
 

TehCookie

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Maximum Bert said:
TehCookie said:
To quote art, "A rose by any other name..." is still a rose.
huh is that a paraphrase I thought it was "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" which I think was in Romeo and Juliet if my hazy memory is correct.

As for what is art well I dont think it has an answer but for me art is created beauty. So in that sense I would class a small number of games as art. Now high art I have no idea what that is sounds like something some snob came up with to say what they see as art is greater than other art.
Isn't a paraphrase putting something into your own words but keeping the idea? I just cut the quote shorter, hence the ellipsis, but I'm not an English major. You are right about it being from Romeo and Juliet.

Calling games art doesn't change what they are. Romeo was her love regardless of his family name, a rose still smells sweet if you call it something else, and calling games art doesn't make the mass media respect them any more than they did. At least in the U.S there should be no debate of whether or not games are art, they are classified and protected by the government as art regardless of your personal opinion on it.
 

blackdwarf

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If we are going to use examples for game are art, I seriously suggest to not use Dear Esther. Dear Ester doesn't use the unique aspect of games, meaning interactivity. Sure, you can walk around, but there is not one choice in the game. SOTL does everything DE tries and does it way better. Why? because SOTL is aware it is an interactive medium and uses that to add to its experience. The game points at you for being the driving force behind Walker, who is doing these terrible deeds. In DE you are just walking around, while hearing a story not related to what you are doing. So essentially we are listening to a audio book, which makes it a passive experience. A game that is Passive is not a good game. I am not saying that Visual novels are bad, because I know there are some who allow for choice, which influence the story.

And I will easily add to you criminally small list of examples. And with art being subjective, I will expect lot of disagreements.

Mass Effect/ Dragon Age/ Witcher: Prime examples of games that use their interactivity to makes situations not a movie or book can even try. You are the one that makes choices. You are to one responsible. You are the one dealing with the consequences. And for me, I would easily call these games life enriching, because some choices did really make me think and consider stuff I would never think about. The Side quest of Legion in ME2 is a great example of this.

Persona 4 (the one I played so far.), Solid RPG, but the characters are amazing. You could call this a multiple character study, but instead of being passive, you can actually interact with them.

Dark Souls/ Oblivion. These have more the do with their ability to just suck me in their worlds. I can lose hours with noticing, because I am lost in the Environment they create.


There are probably lots more, but these are the one I now remember and I will always be opinion and never the final answer. I mean, I have seen the Mona Lisa, yeah it was good, but in the same room there was stuff that never is talked about, which I find way more impressive.
 

Lieju

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The AAA-industry has the same issue Hollywood does; budgets are huge, so they are afraid to take risks, so everything is the same and there isn't much artistic value.


SonOfVoorhees said:
Art is something to communicate a thought or feeling. Games in my opinion can not be art because the whole reason they exist is to make money. Not for its own purpose. Same way a car or a TV cant be labelled art. They can be a great looking object but not art.
There are a lot of indie games that people distribute for free.
Similarly there are movies and paintings just made for money, so does that mean they invalidate the whole form of art?
 

Thoughtful_Salt

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SonicWaffle said:
Thoughtful_Salt said:
?High Art??. While the solid definition of Art itself hasn't yet been fully established (If you still find yourself asking ?Is it art?? about a particular piece or performance then the question is proof positive of a lack of a universal definition), there are clearly examples of High Art in almost every medium. Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, Shakespeare's Hamlet, Welles' Citizen Kane and Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby, etc, etc, etc.
"We have no standard for what art is, but these things are definitely art"?
It's one of those tricky things. While there is no universal definition of "art", there have been works that consensus has agreed fits the imaginary bill. It's not a bad thing per se to say that these are art, even high art. Have games reached the same heights yet?

SonicWaffle said:
Thoughtful_Salt said:
Works such as those have held up to rigorous critical analysis by academics and popular consensus, and no one is ever going to question that they are the titans, the gold standard for their mediums (keep in mind that there are multiple examples in each field, as there is no work that can be termed ?the greatest? without the termer being subjected to a drubbing worthy of the Cleveland Browns) and serve as a source of inspiration for generations. What game can possibly hold up to that standard?
Except that people do question those things, all the time. Hey, do you have opinions? Then you and I probably don't see eye-to-eye on some stuff! You can't say something like Hamlet is an undisputed triumph when there are many people who simply don't like it. Hell, I imagine anyone who had to study Shakespeare in school hates his fucking guts. Without a definition of art, you're labelling stuff as High Art because presumably you, and a bunch of other people, like them.
I'm not talking about some games journalists or youtuber commenting on these things, i'm talking about academia. And besides, all analysis of games that i've seen usually boils down to "this game is trying to be this, the mechanics are deep, this game is not fun, i'm making a vague descriptor of what this game makes me feel without going into specific mechanics that make it so, etc". There has been some analysis in the sense of "this mechanic, this system, this piece of art design add up to this creative vision" (moviebob's SMB3 book is a good example, so it Tom Bissell's Extra Lives), but it's merely a raindrop in the ocean of hype and marketing that these things have become. Think about it, when was the last time you had a discussion on what made a game good or bad that didn't involve the phrase "it's fun so it doesn't matter?".

THe escapists' sheamus young brings up the gaming needs a roger ebert subject, which sort of states where we are at.

Oh and Hamlet, as well as all of the other works i've mentioned, have been examined to the point of exhaustion, but they are still called, by the vast majority of people who've experienced them I might add, high art. I don't even like the Mona Lisa, but arguing against the vast consensus around that painting is like spitting at the wind. The point is that we need a game/experience that becomes the wind as well, all other candidates have not held up well so far when applied a rigorous scrubbing of critical thought.

SonicWaffle said:
You mention a crisis of identity, but I think you're missing the point. The crisis of identity regarding games as art is not "will games ever achieve art?". That's a binary choice. Either all games are art, or none are. Once that much is established we can go on to question whether a certain work is good, bad or great art. The crisis games are suffering from is that as a form of art we have so far been largely incapable of separating what makes good art in more traditional mediums from what makes good art in a video game. If you judge a movie by the standards of a painting, it may be nice to look at and well put together, but narratively it sucks and the characters are so two-dimensional.
You'll notice that I only asked what the definition of art was, never questioned the actual status of games as art. Having established that they are now art, where is the great art?, that spreads a universal message, with meaningful ideas. It's no longer a question of "is it fun?" but "what else does it have to offer?".

The crisis of identity does inflict itself on games, you have Mass Effect trying to meld science fiction literature onto the Gears Of War grindhouse, you have The Last Of Us mixing the non-interactive cinematics with the interactive gameplay, and yet still trying to impose static cinema onto the gameplay itself. Bioshock Infinite cramming themes into its games like a novel, all without a care for the consequences of its gameplay mechanics and elements to its story.

What are games trying to achieve? (Keep in mind that I love the mass effect trilogy to death), In trying to ape and re-appropriate elements of other mediums, are games losing the central element of their identity?

I do agree that games should be judged to their own standards, but there are few games that succeed on their own terms AND manage to be more than just "fun". You wouldn't call Die Hard a great masterpiece, but it's still damn fun, and that's where the vast majority of games are at right now.

SonicWaffle said:
Games are an interactive medium. Does the quality of the playing experience effect whether the piece is considered good art? I hear good things about Spec Ops, but I played the demo and it handled like dogshit so I never played further. Ocarina of Time may not be the prettiest game in the world, but by God it's a joy to play through. The kind of questions we should be asking is not how video games compare as art using the metric of movies or books, but by how well they stand as art within their own sphere.

Also, not actually related to what I just said, but you put Red Dead Redemption as just a piece of play-and-forget fluff? I find that astonishing. It's one of the most atmospheric and deep gaming experiences I've ever had, and I loved the ultimately futile nature of the storyline. I'd class it as great art, even with the minor glitches and the sometimes iffy control scheme.
Well it has to affect it doesn't it? A game that doesn't play well, has major bugs and is simply not entertaining in any way, but "it has a great story, so it's art".........Nope. Games have to be games (or experiences in Dear Esther's case) first and foremost, then we'll see where the story takes us. Admittedly sometimes the lacking mechanics can sometimes add up to something great. In Spec Ops, every single mechanic, every single sound asset and art design asset, add up to the central core of the game's message ("Do you feel like a hero yet"). Even if the experience wasn't "fun" in the sense of "oh, I want the ability to mow every one down at the same speed as serious sam because that would make this thing a piece of great art", then the games still succeeds under its own objective terms. It says what it wants to say and has the supporting mechanics to back it up. Macbeth (which bored me to tears) has everything there in the story to back up its core themes and messages,sometimes it's not about whether we like the piece of art, but whether it stands up despite our hatred (I also loathe Citizen Kane, but would not dream of questioning its exalted status). If it weren't for the multiplayer hanging there like a wart, then the game would seriously be a great example of "high art" in the traditional sense. But there you go.


V8 Ninja said:
Wait, FEZ requires you to use a QR scanner to solve some of its puzzles? What?! That's BS! I just started playing the game a few days ago! Now I can't finish the game I payed for without consulting outside sources? C'mon!

A Less Agitated Response: If I find a game mechanically interesting and engaging, I consider it art. I'm not exactly picky, as you can tell.
It's okay to use the internet with those puzzles, it's not cheating. Oh and have a controller with a vibrate function, as one or two puzzles also require that.