The problem with modern action movies

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dscross

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What is it about action movies that people love? Is there a desire to see explosions and guns? Is it that watching an action movie is about escaping into a reality that is simultaneously like our own and yet, very different?

One of the biggest reasons surely must be the engaging excitement that comes along with watching the action. It's such a gripping ride to see characters have to fight for their lives. Movies are about characters overcoming problems. It's such a visceral movie going experience to see a character get through his problems with guns or hand-to-hand combat.

BUT what if you don't care about the outcome. I.e. what if the movie has not given the characters enough backstory for me to care whether they live or die. Then, to me, the action scenes become meaningless. There are basically, no stakes. No consequences.

And here we come to the reason why I believe many of the action movies Hollywood produces these days are getting increasingly boring.

We live in an age where the photorealistic advances in computer-generated effects and lighting design, motion capture, green screen, stunt coordination, and military-like devices that move the camera are rapid and mind-blowing. The technology being used today on a film that will hit theaters in the summer of 2018 is far more advanced than what we saw in theatres last summer.

Because of this, directors and writers seem so focussed on the spending millions on action sequences that they often seem to forget to spend time with the characters they created, rendering the scenes meaningless. They just jump straight into it, proceeding to grace us with one action sequence after another without much character building at all. It leaves you wondering, who are these people and why should I care what happens to them?

I'm going to use an example of this trend that won't win me any friends - Star Wars: Rogue One. It's a movie that people would probably not have found as exciting had it not taken place in the Star Wars universe. Without that important backdrop and mythology, it could have been any other generic action movie.

It's not because of period, setting, action or casting. Rogue One got all of that right, in spades, especially in the visual support of all four. It's simply that Rogue One forgets a fundamental obligation of storytelling, whether that's Smokey and the Bandit or My Dinner With Andre.

As recycled as The Force Awakens' story was, Rey was relatable through the hard work and the trudgery of the film's first quarter. It builds to her critical judgment not to sell BB-8. Her character is not without flaws - did you miss or forget that she feels some need to return to Jakku? The "lie the character believes" is weak and inconsequential in Rey's case. But overall, viewers warm to her story because they see Rey making choices and imposing her will, or reconciling it with larger forces.

Rogue One worked it backward. Almost nothing in the first half to two-thirds of the film carried any consequence - consequence that could change the emergence of the final battle, or the Death Star's means of shaping it. Lessons from the Screenplay points out that we don't see Jyn, or her compatriots, making any meaningful choices until the final assault on Scarif. While noble, their sacrifice ends up robbed of the meaning the filmmakers intended because of the casual and inconsequential nature of events leading to it.

And there's the crux of it. Many (not all) modern action films seem to forget to do the following two things BEFORE any action sequences take place...

1. Make us emotionally invest in the characters
2. Make it clear what the CONSEQUENCES of them failing is

I used to love action films. Jurassic Park (a film that spends the entire first half making us invest in the characters before any ensuing action) is one of my favourite films. But a lot of modern action films don't seem to do it for me. I hope this changes in the future.

What do you all think? Why am I wrong or right?
 

Casual Shinji

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I don't know if that's the problem with modern action movies, because right now I can only think of Rogue One that suffers from it.

Too many quick cuts and an over reliance on CGI seem to be the bigger problem.

I also think that the rise of the family friendly blockbuster has taken away most of the financial backing for the R-rated action movie. It seems to be shifting a bit now with movies like Deadpool and IT being massive hits, but it used to be (from the 2000's onward) that action movies, like Dredd and John Wick were almost niche titles. Not that action movies have to be R-rated, but it really helps in adding an edge to the consequences.
 

Hawki

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I keep seeing people talking about "action movies these days," and all I can say is that I think it's more a case of us getting older and more jaded. I can still enjoy action movies (at least three are in my top ten films list for 2017 so far), but now that I'm older, I need good characterization and story in addition to the pretty explosions. It's why action/action-adventure movies like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Terminator 2 still hold up for me, while Transformers...doesn't (not that I ever liked the live-action movies, but you know what I mean).

Since they've been brought up, Force Awakens vs. Rogue One is an example. Now, TFA has flaws, but it still had characters I cared about, and had those characters undergo arcs. Without looking anything up, I can name the following characters off my head (excluding OT ones that return):

-Rey
-Finn
-Poe Dameron
-Kylo Ren
-Captain Phasma
-General Hux
-BB8
-Snoke
-Maz Kenada
-Teedo (who isn't really a character, but I remember his name)

There's the big salvager guy that Rey interacts with whose name I can't remember, but at the least, that's a pretty decent list. Now, looking at Rogue One, using the same criteria:

-Jyn Erso
-Cassian Andor
-Saw Guerra (sp?)
-Director Kinnick
-Botti?
-CS-8 (sp?)

And...that's it. Oh sure, I can describe the characters to you (Force monk mystic guy, Indian TIE fighter guy, general guy, Jyn's father), but I can't really name them. Rogue One also has problems in its structure, and I can't really cite any character as undergoing a character arc. Maybe Jyn and Cassian (becomes invested in the Rebellion, softens up a little), but they're really unpronounced. You could argue that Rogue One is more about the group while TFA is more about the individual, but still, let's just say that's part of the reason why I feel TFA holds up better. There's other more subjective reasons mind you, but there you go.
 

Saelune

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I love Marvel movies. Those are my action movies. Most others I dont care about though cause they are well...generic. Or they try so hard to make their characters so unreasonably 'cool'. Ya know, like Borne Identity and John Wick.

Atleast make it weird with what Marvel does.

I also love Tarantino, but he is his own genre of movies.
 

Chewster

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Casual Shinji said:
I don't know if that's the problem with modern action movies, because right now I can only think of Rogue One that suffers from it.

Too many quick cuts and an over reliance on CGI seem to be the bigger problem.

I also think that the rise of the family friendly blockbuster has taken away most of the financial backing for the R-rated action movie. It seems to be shifting a bit now with movies like Deadpool and IT being massive hits, but it used to be (from the 2000's onward) that action movies, like Dredd and John Wick were almost niche titles. Not that action movies have to be R-rated, but it really helps in adding an edge to the consequences.
I agree with all of this and it also must be said that I'm not a fan of that Paul Greengrass "hyeperrealistic" bullshit shaky cam because it makes it almost impossible to understand what's going on. It doesn't put me in the action, it just gives me a headache. Unless it's a found footage film (and let's be real, I can count the number of good found footage films on one hand), it makes no sense. Buy a fucking tripod already, Paul.

Also, as much as I enjoyed Rogue One, it annoyed me because it basically rewrote that whole Dark Forces, Kyle Katarn timeline. That shit was a part of my childhood. I thought there was a massive database somewhere manned by a team of nerds to prevent that from happening.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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I don't know if I'd call the Star Wars flicks "action movies".
The worse thing you can do for an action movie is make the protagonist too powerful.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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But the Kingsman, Planet of the Apes, Free Fire, Guardians of the Galaxy...there are more but it's not very sensical to judge all modern actions movies from the fan film Rogue One; bad characterisation and storytelling have existed since the dawn of entertainment, as well as the good. But people tend to filter out the shit from the past effortlessly, leaving a rather inaccurate perception of quality.
 

dscross

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Xsjadoblayde said:
But the Kingsman, Planet of the Apes, Free Fire, Guardians of the Galaxy...there are more but it's not very sensical to judge all modern actions movies from the fan film Rogue One; bad characterisation and storytelling have existed since the dawn of entertainment, as well as the good. But people tend to filter out the shit from the past effortlessly, leaving a rather inaccurate perception of quality.
I didnt mean to imply that it applies to all of them. However, in my view, a good chunk of the first half of an action film shouldn't contain that much action at all and should just be spent on getting me to care about the outcome of the action scenes later on. Many modern action films, don't do this. It's only my opinion, obviously, but Rogue one was just an obvious example. Listing lots of modern action film and their flaws would have been a long post that no-one would have read.

I haven't seen Kingsman or Free Fire, but it applies to the other two to a lesser extent than Rogue One when compared to older films like Jurassic Park or The Matrix, which spend a lot more of the film on build up, characters etc.
 

Casual Shinji

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Chewster said:
Casual Shinji said:
I don't know if that's the problem with modern action movies, because right now I can only think of Rogue One that suffers from it.

Too many quick cuts and an over reliance on CGI seem to be the bigger problem.

I also think that the rise of the family friendly blockbuster has taken away most of the financial backing for the R-rated action movie. It seems to be shifting a bit now with movies like Deadpool and IT being massive hits, but it used to be (from the 2000's onward) that action movies, like Dredd and John Wick were almost niche titles. Not that action movies have to be R-rated, but it really helps in adding an edge to the consequences.
I agree with all of this and it also must be said that I'm not a fan of that Paul Greengrass "hyeperrealistic" bullshit shaky cam because it makes it almost impossible to understand what's going on. It doesn't put me in the action, it just gives me a headache. Unless it's a found footage film (and let's be real, I can count the number of good found footage films on one hand), it makes no sense. Buy a fucking tripod already, Paul.
I think this is also the result of the (non-superhero) action movie not having much of a budget anymore. It's cheaper and faster to just shoot a bunch of generic footage and edit it together in a hectic manner than it is to have proper framing, choreography, planning out the scene, multiple takes, lighting etc.
 

votemarvel

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Chewster said:
Also, as much as I enjoyed Rogue One, it annoyed me because it basically rewrote that whole Dark Forces, Kyle Katarn timeline. That shit was a part of my childhood. I thought there was a massive database somewhere manned by a team of nerds to prevent that from happening.
There is but it doesn't matter sadly.

When Disney bought Lucasarts they threw out all the extended universe content, to them the only things that count are the events that take place on the screen (movies and TV shows).
 

Trunkage

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inu-kun said:
I think the problem of action movies this days is a lack of great leads. We don't have anyone approaching the level of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bruce Willis etc. Seems like most just have a very plain personality of a "playful rogue" or shades of it.

Also the plots seems so boring today, at least in the past Hollywood adapted actual books for memorable stories.
Woah.. Arnold and Bruce are good actors? I mean, they are better than Cage but putting them at mediocre would be rating them excessively. Arnold was great in T2 because he didn't really need to act. Bruce was great in Die Hard because he had to act the incredibly lucky average man (and why the recent movies didn't work - they asked him to act.) It did have him speaking to himself to justify the stupidity of the movie. That makes him a better actor than Arnold.

Since we are talking about Star Wars, Ford and Hamill aren't great actors either. Even some good actors like Hopkins have put in about two great performances in his life. Great performances are always few and far between. When looking back, we can ignore all the detritus and focus on the good. When there is one or two great movies coming out every year, it feels like a slog.

As to plots, once a movie reaches a cultural status, we seem to forgive the poor writing. People literally make a living on YouTube pointing out how bad writing was back in the day (or today.)
 

FalloutJack

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This isn't so much of a 'problem' as 'viewer opinion'. For instance, I like Rogue One and I'm 'meh' on the new Star Wars series. Even still, I can only imagine that alot of people are "WTF?" at Vader making a pun in Rogue One. I laughed, because it was so unexpected, even though it was a bad pun.

But then, I also thought this...

 

Squilookle

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OP you're a thoughtful, really intelligent poster, I can see that. But for those of us who just don't have the time for WOTs, could you chuck us a TL:DR summary at the bottom of these posts? we'd be super grateful!
 

dscross

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FalloutJack said:
This isn't so much of a 'problem' as 'viewer opinion'.
Yeah... I qualified the whole thing as my opinion numerous times in the post and never pretended it was anything other than that. It's a discussion topic, nothing more, and stating the obvious doesn't really contribute. No offence meant or anything. As I've said in a reply further up, Rogue One was meant as an obvious example of my point, rather than a catch all but it applies to lots of other modern action films to various degrees, in my opinion.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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dscross said:
BUT what if you don't care about the outcome. I.e. what if the movie has not given the characters enough backstory for me to care whether they live or die. Then, to me, the action scenes become meaningless. There are basically, no steaks. No consequences.

And here we come to the reason why I believe many of the action movies Hollywood produces these days are getting increasingly boring.
I can appreciate a well thought out post, but I kinda feel you're drastically overthinking this and missing an essential element... something that can be summed up in a single word.

Spectacle.

Cinema has never lost - and will never lose - that vital spark that ostensibly gave life to it all. I enjoy the first and third Transformers films, and you know what I see when a whacking great skyscraper gets cut in half by a colossal Decepticon? What am I really connecting to? The silhouette of a horse galloping endlessly in a zoetrope - or a soundless train coming towards the screen in black and white. All the thousands of hours of work on all those digital pieces of urban sci-fi carnage was affecting the same response to the simple, illusory thrills people experienced at the birth of the medium.

Cinema - like any medium - can be so many things. But being a quintessentially visual medium it will never lose that simple, pure element of sheer spectacle (no other medium scratches the itch like bigscreen cinema). And spectacle never needs to be meaningful or consequential.

People can argue about the finer points of contemporary high tech spectacle, but in terms of the mass market appeal it's just a fancier magic lantern or zoetrope, and regardless of what else cinema can or may be, that simple appeal is never going anywhere. Character defining action/action-as-character is the ideal (Joss Whedon has a knack for that) - but it has never been necessary, and no one should be surprised by its lack in modern spectacles.

I also feel Rogue One was a bad individual film to look at, because its flaws are almost exclusively tied to it existing in a franchise - and not just any ol' franchise.

Personally, I see this as a bit of a golden age of mainstream action films, certainly where the MCU's concerned (as woeful as their approach to villains/antagonists tends to be, they get the importance of having characters we can connect to. even the most generic like Ant-Man and Doctor Strange have genuine heart/soul). I have absolutely no nostalgia for any of the older 'action films', which is a term that still tends to make me think of the banal hyper masculine violence of the '80's. Or stuff like Jurassic Park and ID4, neither of which I cared for on release, and both of which I see as inferior to today's best.

I mean, jeese, Chris Nolan's an incredible gift to mainstream spectacle cinema; Batman Begins/TDK, Inception, Interstellar to name four (not seen Dunkirk yet, but I gather that's another good'un). To me that's evidence of a medium maturing, and evolving beyond the simplistic trappings of the past.

And surely The Harry Potter series adds to that? The first two were really just kids films, but by Azkaban one of the most consistent and character rich 'action/spectacle' franchises of all time hit a stride few others have matched.

I'd add Twilight to the list of cinematic evolution/growth, too, as unpopular as it'd sound... I felt they were--- er, 'lacking' in quality for the most part (I still like most of the first one, though partly that's to see a curious, Volvo sponsored retelling of Buffy S2. I also like Stewart and Pattinson), but it's proof of mainstream cinema's real diversification, i.e. catering to more niches/demographics (it's not like Hollywood hadn't been pandering to adolescent boys for decades, so pandering to girls and younger women made for a positive change of pace/tone).

Ditto The Hunger Games. And at least two-thirds of the mainline Bourne series.

You might try to say most of these examples aren't 'action movies', but you didn't really define precisely what you meant by that - and you seem to be focusing on narrative and characters, which all of these films deliver on. I'd argue the tastes of modern audiences have become broader and more refined; the mass market has never been smarter (it's also, at its worse, never been dumber... but I see that as fine so long as the spectrum develops at both ends). Hell, even in the one negative example you cited, Rogue One, we have a quite nuanced antagonist played by Ben Mendelsohn, as well as certain protagonists who are morally grey (at best).

Flawed - and arguably 'lost' in editing - as that film may've been, it's still an intellectually broader cut above the majority of spectacle froth of bygone eras. It certainly explores a rather unpleasant, uncomfortably realistic underbelly of the romanticised rebels of the original trilogy.

I also see TV as relevant to this; how tastes have shifted, and - I feel - become richer and more diverse. Daredevil S1 and 2 were pretty much Marvel's The Dark Knight, in terms of a very grounded genre narrative/world building married to genuine thematic depth and complexity (incredibly dark, but not grimdark). One of TDK's best and most tense scenes is pretty much just three guys shouting at each other... as themes and plot points finally come to a head. Daredevil S2 at its best, for me, matched that, and also paired it with action worth a damn (as great as Nolan's trilogy is, action wasn't a strong point).

...my overly long point being; if classic/older action films have died off - good? Because what's ostensibly replaced and/or diluted it is so much more diverse and engaging.
 

Ogoid

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dscross said:
And there's the crux of it. Many (not all) modern action films seem to forget to do the following two things BEFORE any action sequences take place...

1. Make us emotionally invest in the characters
2. Make it clear what the CONSEQUENCES of them failing is
I think this basically covers it.

Only thing I'd add is that a very large portion of action movies coming out these days consists of yet another remake/reboot/sequel to something that came out decades ago (usually aping its most superficial aspects while entirely missing the point of what made it good), or still yet another superhero movie.
 

Asita

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Methinks you misunderstand the point of Rogue One. This is a movie made for a target audience who already know how it ends. Not why it ends that way, but successfully retrieving the Death Star plans is a foregone conclusion for almost anyone who has even heard of Star Wars.

Rogue One is not something that is meant to be viewed in isolation. It's there to bridge the gap between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope and establish the need for everything in a New Hope. The need for a Rebel Alliance, the need to stop Tarkin, the need to destroy the Death Star, the need for a good counterpart to Darth Vader. Better yet, let's think of the original trilogy as a single story. Rogue One is the prologue to that story, setting the stage for A New Hope.

votemarvel said:
Chewster said:
Also, as much as I enjoyed Rogue One, it annoyed me because it basically rewrote that whole Dark Forces, Kyle Katarn timeline. That shit was a part of my childhood. I thought there was a massive database somewhere manned by a team of nerds to prevent that from happening.
There is but it doesn't matter sadly.

When Disney bought Lucasarts they threw out all the extended universe content, to them the only things that count are the events that take place on the screen (movies and TV shows).
...That's how it had been for decades. The extended universe operated on a tiered canon philosophy which could be paraphrased to echo the laws of Robotics.

First Law (G Canon): The six movies by George Lucas and statements from him (including unpublished production notes) are always canon.

Second Law (C Canon): All [relatively] recent works are considered de-facto canon until such time that they conflict with the First Law

Third Law (S Canon): Works that are to be used or ignored as needed by authors except when they conflict with the First or Second Laws. (Most of the works predate the effort to establish a consistent effort to maintain continuity)

Disney's statement ultimately amounted to them saying that - as the ones creating the new main storyline - they weren't beholden to C or S canon, much like Lucas wasn't.
 

PapaGreg096

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I know while I do think modern action movie have their share of problems I still consider them much better than movies from the 80s. I with the exception of Rambo and the Terminator films most 80s actions are pretty much bad guys who can't aim or shoot and the hero who just mows them down standing with crappy fight choreography.