The Problem With Twilight

[Seneschal]

I don't think we should be the ones to judge. This is a gaming website. All games ever get is cultural disdain at how immature and corrupting they are, how they function by satisfying base urges like bloodlust, collecting stuff and jumping around, how they thrive in violence and childish misogynistic plots, etc.

It's all true. And it doesn't matter one bit, because we claim it doesn't affect us. It's pure harmless fun. We know there are smart games around, but we don't feel pressured to play only those because we don't think there's anything wrong with Massive Bloody Genocide IX.

I agree, there's nothing wrong. It won't seep into our brains and create a cultural revolution led by violent man-children, media just don't work that way. So, no, I don't think reading what amounts to softcore romance-porn will affect girls just as buying toy-guns won't affect boys. If being exposed to bad media (and you all KNOW the average shooter's plot has worse writing than Twilight) is bound to make us all immoral reality-detached zombies, we ought to stop playing games then.

Which I'm not about to do, so I'm curious as to why everyone is such a hypocrite, revving up their Gears of War 2 while preaching how Twilight will make girls frigid and passive. They didn't ban your cathartic emotion-vent, why should they ban theirs?

 

[snowman6251]

First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.

 

[Twilight.falls]

MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I think you're missing one thing Bob. Vampire = Sex, yes, but Vampire = STRAIGHT Sex i.e. M/F.
What do we think of the werewolfs? Well, they're a bunch of guys that hang around together, look similar, show off their physique, don't have any girls around, spend all their time wrestling, shirtless...

Yeah. Subtle.

Jacob's play for Bella is a very unsubtle metaphor for Jacob wanting to be straight, or at least take her away from straight men to make his own "fag hag", as I believe they're called. Women who stay with gay men because they get all the eye-candy/benefits without having to engage in the "other stuff".

And that's before we go into Breaking Dawn, which even the Twitards returned in their droves.

What can you put here, is it that BELLA'S SPINE BREAKS, EDWARD RIPS HER WOMB OPEN WITH HIS TEETH, JACOB FALLS IN LUST WITH HER BABY...

Yeah, Meyer is one twisted, delusional woman. My sympathy for her was lost when she declared that no-one recognised her genius because they're all men.

Wrong on both accounts, my dear.

EDIT: I think that the enthusiasm for bashing Twilight has over-ridden the good sense of people and they can't have a balanced view, all the see are all the ways in which it must be a negative, ill-intentioned, or somehow bad for reading. Everybody is treating it like the anti-christ given form. It's bad fiction, and it will pass. In hindsight, people won't even notice it, it'll be a mote in the eyes of history.

Not so much. It's that it's gained steamroller popularity. There are better paranormal romance books (Morganville Vampires, Kitty the Werewolf DJ, Weather Witch, Zodiac Signs) that don't have this message, and have believable plot, characters etc.

But the Twilight stuff keeps coming out. The Graphic Novel is laughably bad, it's only saving grace being Bella getting hit in the face with a basketball: And the marketing machine is still going.

Given 10 years, these films will still be popular and Meyer will take the place of Rowling (who also just adapted an idea that had been around for ages) or Dan Brown.

Trashy fiction has always sold well since the pulps, but when it comes with a guaranteed fanbase, then why wouldn't more writers try and emulate her "style". It's making a mote into a mountain.

If you read Twilight again, you'll see how not only are the characters, plot, story and background is bad, but so is the grammar, syntax and POV. It's not a bad book, it's a bad piece of fan-fiction. I've read stories here that are more gripping and involving.

What she's done, which in my mind is unforgivable, is take money away from decent authors who write better books, and wasted it on something that's nothing more than a soft porn Mary Sue.

The pivotal scene in each movie is basically a copy of the Trading Places Jamie Lee Curtis scene, the Barbara Windsor scene in Carry on... or the Sharon Stone scene in Basic Instincts. A groinal tickle.

Now if that's being held up as not only a fine piece of literature, but a PG-13 and a way of life; then it counts as being something far worse than just bad fiction.

When Harry Dresden becomes self-destructive and retarded after the loss of his girlfriend (and, arguably, the love of his life), do we view it as self-indulgent crap, or as legitimate character development?

When Dresden starts his book, the case begins within the first chapter. Bella gets her first sub-plot at around page 200.
Or simply, how much definition does Harry Dresden have over Bella. Because AFACIT, Meyer never even defines what Bella looks like.

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I've enjoyed both the video review of the movie and this commentary...I usually avoid the Moviebob column (at least until I've had a chance to see a given film for myself) but this was one case where I knew I wouldn't be seeing the movie and wanted to see what you're take was on it.

The only concern I can see over the views you are presenting, and specifically over the suggestion that this movie might define or influence behavior in young women, is that it seems to be the same error that conventional critics and the media in general makes constantly toward the movies and games so prevalent in our gamer/nerd culture. Suggesting that the women who enjoy Twilight will be inclined to develop anti-feminist, submissive and/or powerless roles against stalker/domineering males sounds very close (in my mind) the popular assertion that if I love to play Modern Warfare 2 then I must either be a gun nut, prone to violence in real life, or otherwise am easily influenced in some way for the worse. We know the people who make such assertions about our gamer culture are full of it, because we know that we, as people, are not so shallow, desperate for guidance and malleable that playing a violent game or watching a violent movie will otherwise change our very nature as people....so why are we assuming that the average Twilight fan is so gullible?

Because they are. I don't think it's fair to draw the comparison between the idea that gamers must all be potential school shooters and the idea that Twilight presents poor role models for women (and men!). One is being outed in the conservative-controlled media as a scapegoat for the social ills of today, while the other is being passively advocated by that same media. IE: they're not critiquing it, and by constantly chasing around Robert Pattinson and Stephanie Meyer they are further advocating that this series has a worthy place in our culture. No, the people saying that Twilight is a bad influence on people are on the underground.

Also, despite all the media frenzy over videogaming violence, no one really has any evidence of it causing people to turn violent. By contrast, Twilight actually has encouraged a disturbing trend to rise where dedicated fans (Twi-hards) will literally beat people up for expressing negative views of the book. It's no joke: a friend of mine told her younger brother that the sex scene in Twilight is borderline rape, and when he repeated that in school some kid punched him in the face.

I would not go as far to say that Twilight is turning people into Mormons, that's a very long bow to draw. But from what I have personally observed around my own friends, it is encouraging a certain demographic of women into believing that the way Edward and Jacob treat Bella is perfectly acceptable, indeed, desirable in a relationship. Say what you will, Twilight is not empowering for women. It's taken the appallingly misogynistic paperback romance genre out of the closet and into the mainstream, and is targeting it primarily at vulnerable young girls. That is not a good thing for anyone concerned.

 

[Seneschal]

MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.

and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*

First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.

Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.

 

[snowman6251]

MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.

and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*

First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.

Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.

The Sims?

 

[solidstatemind]

Very concise way to sum it up, Bob. Although I usually don't argue with 'messages' (trusting the recipient will have the good sense to think their way through such dross--- which, yes yes, maybe overly optimistic), I will agree that this message is rather nefarious.

The thing is, I think you missed the obvious connection, between the tenets of the muslim faith and the message that the 'Twilight' series presents. Not saying that Meyer intended it to be the case, but in many ways, you could argue that the role of women in 'Twilight' is actually closer to way 3rd world countries treat their women than what the LDS does.

 

[Seneschal]

MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.

and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*

First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.

Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.

The Sims?

And you think no one can construct a "why is it bad for you"-theory about the Sims? It's quite easy: god complex, manipulatory tendencies, over-reliance of complete control, seeing other human beings as puppets. Take it to Fox News and they'll make it a cautionary tale.

It'll also be completely untrue and I'm pretty sure you're not a socially-dysfunctional megalomaniac. Potter only made a few people disappointed when they turned 11. Modern Warfare didn't raise the number of gun-related crimes. Rock music didn't create an entire planet populated with decadent sex-crazed punks. Just because it's easy to bash on something as inane and cheesy as teen romance novels, doesn't mean we have to make up reasons as to why it's bad. And it's especially unusual seeing the MovieBob going all Michael Atkinson on it.

 

[snowman6251]

And you think no one can construct a "why is it bad for you"-theory about the Sims? It's quite easy: god complex, manipulatory tendencies, over-reliance of complete control, seeing other human beings as puppets. Take it to Fox News and they'll make it a cautionary tale.

It'll also be completely untrue and I'm pretty sure you're not a socially-dysfunctional megalomaniac. Potter only made a few people disappointed when they turned 11. Modern Warfare didn't raise the number of gun-related crimes. Rock music didn't create an entire planet populated with decadent sex-crazed punks. Just because it's easy to bash on something as inane and cheesy as teen romance novels, doesn't mean we have to make up reasons as to why it's bad. And it's especially unusual seeing the MovieBob going all Michael Atkinson on it.

First of all I was joking about the Sims. Who actually plays that?

And second of all my point still stands that Bob speaks only truth because he addressed all this. He said its a slippery slope to be saying that the Twilight's message would actually lead to something happening in terms of the way women behave in the coming years. He does say that he doesn't like the message but never says it'll actually lead to anything. He says at the end that as crap as the message is, that's not what makes Twilight suck. Twilight sucks because its a poorly written, piece of shit story.

And that's what Bob says. And Bob is right.

 

[Rohobok]

I've read a lot about Twilight on these forums, and I rarely post, so I thought I'd just have to give my opinion on the matter.

First off: I am a 24 year old male whose only reason for ever even looking at Twilight in the first place was because of my girlfriend. To please her, and to also satiate my curiosity, I borrowed the books off her and read them all. Obviously, regardless of whether I actually like the books or not, I had to go and watch the film, too.

So, what do I think of Twilight? I'm neither an English teacher nor am I a philosopher but, if something can keep my attention enough to make me want to read/watch/play more, then it's entertaining. The Twilight series managed that for me. How good is it's writing style? I don't know, nor do I care. What I do know is that it worked for me, and like most good books, leaves you wanting to read more. To see what happens next. This has worked for nearly every book I have read, and whilst I've not read much that defers from 'popular' (Stephen King, JK Rowling, Tolkein, Koontz, Austen and more famous names...) I would certainly consider myself to be open-minded and experimental when it comes to reading material.

Whilst it was painful at first to read "His beauty made my heart melt" (not an actual quote, just something just as sickly), I quickly got over it. I realised that right here, was a writer willing to risk the wrath of so many horror fans by blatantly redesigning vampires. I both admire producing work that is by-the-book, yet completely unoriginal and excruciatingly predictable, but of such high quality to warrant not caring about it's originality, to admiring something 'revolutionary'. Now I wouldn't call Twilight revolutionary but Meyer definitely receives some brownie points from me for trying. On the predictability side of things, apart from the truly obvious (like Bella and Edward reuniting) there really wasn't that much I could have foreseen. Bob may call the Breaking Dawn plot ridiculous, but I thought it not only made sense (within the Twilight world) but also became quite dramatic towards the end, albeit a little over the top (read: gathering of super-power Vampires).

As for the films, compared to a few book>film creations out there, Twilight's run has been fairly good. The "I'm hotter than you" line, if I'm not mistaken, is just plain Hollywood tripe, slung in for maybe a cheap laugh or..something; either way, I don't think it's in the book and I will cringe horribly when Jacob delivers that line in the cinema.

Also, because it's late and I felt the need to write something: yes, like a few here, I think Meyer definitely did NOT intend for any of her books to be so utterly reverse-engineered to the point that critics like Bob have essentially crafted a conspiracy theory from it. That is to say, that young women across the world are being taught to find a man, marry him, THEN have sex.

To add on, when something is entertaining, why look too deep into it? Just enjoy it. We can't all be so paranoid to think that 'good' things actually disguise a deeper, potentially dangerous intention.

Then again, it's people like Bob whose job it is to look deeper into things in order to give us something interesting to read and to differentiate from the horde of other by-the-book critics.

Rant off.

 

[Dr. Dan Challis]

I don't think it's fair to draw the comparison between the idea that gamers must all be potential school shooters and the idea that Twilight presents poor role models for women (and men!). One is being outed in the conservative-controlled media as a scapegoat for the social ills of today, while the other is being passively advocated by that same media. IE: they're not critiquing it, and by constantly chasing around Robert Pattinson and Stephanie Meyer they are further advocating that this series has a worthy place in our culture. No, the people saying that Twilight is a bad influence on people are on the underground.

There's a bit of goalpost moving going on here: whether something is lionized or demonized by the prevailing media, is that in any way a mitigating factor when we're talking about possible harm to the target audience? Not really. Drinking rat poison is never good for you, no matter how many media outlets endorse it. Anecdotal stories about school fights aside, is there any solid evidence that Twilight is anything more than harmless escapism for an audience that has long been ignored and marginalized by the entertainment industry? Again, not really.

There's an attitude amongst the anti-Twilight brigade that's more troubling than any subtext in Meyers' books: "You [Twilight fans] are not as smart as I am and you require me to be the arbiter of good taste and propriety for you," which is an ugly bill of goods to be selling young women, especially under the guise of trying to empower them.

 

[kementari]

This is a fabulous article, and goes so much deeper than the standard "well, it's bad writing!!!1!1" most people are satisfied with. I love you, MovieBob. :3

I read an article - possibly on the Escapist - a while ago that gave a singular defense of the Twilight franchise as the first sci-fi/fantasy title really aimed at women since pretty much the birth of the genre. I read the books "for science" - I wanted to have my own opinion rather than just feed off those of others - and as a lifelong sci-fi/fantasy girl, I had to agree. It made sense, but there was this fundamental problem I still had with the neo-medieval morality underlying the story. You've put this into better words than I could have, and I hope you don't mind me linking this around to everyone I've ever discussed Twilight with.

 

[Seneschal]

And you think no one can construct a "why is it bad for you"-theory about the Sims? It's quite easy: god complex, manipulatory tendencies, over-reliance of complete control, seeing other human beings as puppets. Take it to Fox News and they'll make it a cautionary tale.

It'll also be completely untrue and I'm pretty sure you're not a socially-dysfunctional megalomaniac. Potter only made a few people disappointed when they turned 11. Modern Warfare didn't raise the number of gun-related crimes. Rock music didn't create an entire planet populated with decadent sex-crazed punks. Just because it's easy to bash on something as inane and cheesy as teen romance novels, doesn't mean we have to make up reasons as to why it's bad. And it's especially unusual seeing the MovieBob going all Michael Atkinson on it.

First of all I was joking about the Sims. Who actually plays that?

And second of all my point still stands that Bob speaks only truth because he addressed all this. He said its a slippery slope to be saying that the Twilight's message would actually lead to something happening in terms of the way women behave in the coming years. He does say that he doesn't like the message but never says it'll actually lead to anything. He says at the end that as crap as the message is, that's not what makes Twilight suck. Twilight sucks because its a poorly written, piece of shit story.

And that's what Bob says. And Bob is right.

I agree, the message he states is shit. But let's not forget that he put more thought into it than Smeyer. If you ever stumbled into any of her statements, you might have noticed that she isn't exactly an academic powerhouse. The books became a phenomenon for the same reason people (mostly women) read fanfiction - it's "porn".

You'll be hard pressed to find a woman that regularly visits internet pornography because: a) not much of it is made for them, male porn being from a male perspective and gay porn being a little too gay despite all the men, and b) because instant sexual gratification just doesn't cut it. That's why erotic fiction is much more successful with female readers - it has relationships, emotional turmoil, dramatic tension that makes sex all the more significant. Stereotypically, women need sex in an emotional and social context.

Twilight is particularly suited for this. Just like it's easier to identify with Britney Spears than with an operatic diva (since the latter barely sings a little better than you), Twilight is approachable and full of it. In both senses - it's full of romantic back-and-forth, it's safe and non-threatening, it never goes into serious adult stuff and actually significant consequences, and has a nice fantastic element for the sex-starved female geeks to gush on. It's also full of crap, since like all porn, it amounts to nothing but cheap titillation and sexual fantasy. The abstinence thing actually emphasizes this - it's not that Meyer is a mormon and thus needs to be a killjoy, it's just that the female attitude towards sex holds it in a much holier regard than the male one, and sees it as the final expression of the emotional rollercoaster that is a romantic relationship. Twilight didn't make teenagers swear off of sex (because, SERIOUSLY, can any force in the universe accomplish that?), it just presented that fairytale scenario where sex is something that the entire world prepares for over the course of three books and a harrowing love story that makes it all the sweeter. You can blame DISNEY for girls liking that, not Twilight.

So, all the people screaming: "WHYYY? I don't understand why this is successful!" just haven't thought about it hard enough. The Twilight series arrived in the middle of an era where vampires were still sought after, bookish girls were at an age where sex and relationship become of interest, the youth culture grew increasingly internet-oriented and thus more connected, and there was an obvious lack of marketable genre fiction for the girl-tween-entering-puberty demographic. What I don't understand is HOW ISN'T THIS PLANNED? The entire phenomenon stinks of corporate effort to go along the tween music scene, Disney movies, fashion appealing to the teen goth/emo subculture and a lack of vampire fiction ever since Anne Rice's better days. One would assume a corporate exec though of this, but instead it's the brainchild of some random sexually-frustrated unknown. It's uncanny.

EDIT: Oh, right, I got distracted. Since it's romance-porn, essentially providing cheap thrills even if there's more substantial stuff to read out there, how is it any different from games? Or straight-up porn for that matter? Can one say that porn has rendered men around the world domineering, aggressive and eager to "cream some faces"? Well, perhaps, but I don't see the planet getting worse because of it.

 

[MortisLegio]

my problem is that VAMPIRES ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE IN SUNLIGHT its like she took accepted vampire lore and chucked it out the window
vampires drink human blood and die in sunlight is that so hard?

that and the writing is just crap

 

[Cavouku]

I don't have a problem with a woman who wants to wait for marriage, or even one that wants to be submissive, but it's like that video someone... SpecklePattern posted on the front page; she's not a character with those views, she's a shell with those preset views. If she had been her own character it would've been less of an issue.

But the other problem is the stalking acceptance. Just because a girl likes her man attractive isn't bad, I wouldn't condemn a man for the same reason, but if a buddy of mine was being stalked by a girl, I'd tell him he should confront her about what's going on, at the least. And if a friend of mine who was a girl was in the same situation, I'd probably say the same thing, though, to be honest, I'd go with her for support.

The problem isn't what Bella wants and what she does in her situations, but it's that she's so accepting of them, and leaves no reasoning. She acts "selflessly" by doing what Bob said, but the problem isn't what she did, it's why she did it and who she's doing it for. Neither of those guys are really right, and though no guy is perfect and neither is she to be wanting a perfect guy, I implore relationships that are good for one's health. Guy or girl.

I'm trying to be gender-neutral here by giving perspective of switched roles. I think I got my issue out.

 

[Seneschal]

my problem is that VAMPIRES ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE IN SUNLIGHT its like she took accepted vampire lore and chucked it out the window
vampires drink human blood and die in sunlight is that so hard?

that and the writing is just crap

Worst assumption of them all. Are you even listening to yourself? How can a detail such as not upholding some nondescript vampire tradition (as if such a thing actually existed) make a book inherently bad? Giant robots aren't supposed to transform into cars, they should be like in the mute Metropolis movie. Wizards aren't supposed to have schools of witchcraft, they should go around tormenting Christians and being burned at the stake. Do you see how ridiculous it sounds now?

Not to mention that the novel that popularized vampires, Bram Stoker's Dracula, actually has a vampire that doesn't die in the sun, but he's weakened. And vampires receive similar treatment in a variety of legends.

 

[Worgen]

I get the feeling that if in the tent scene the two guys had kicked the girl out and spent the rest of the movie, fucking each other in the ass, then it would have been a much better movie

 

[PhiMed]

Social attitudes around sexual promiscuity and restraint do not progress in one direction but rather cycle back and forth throughout history. Just look at the Romans.

Suggesting that the fall of Rome was not kind of a step backwards for society?