The 'Provocative Clothing' Rape Defense

[Thaluikhain]

Most I've heard of this is as a joke.

I dread to think anyone seriously USES this as a defense during procedures.

All the time, to the extent that some jurisdictions have had to ban lawyers mentioning the victim's clothes.

Hell, half the responses in this thread are variations of "Rape is wrong, but if she's not wearing a burqa, she deserves it". With optional added claims about how common and easy it is for women to get a man falsely convicted of rape.

 

[John Jenkin]

By and large, this is a bunch of nonsense.

I mean I'm all for intellectual discussion, but come on. 'Asking for it?' How would you like it if you took your shirt off on a hot day and some lunatic came a'running?

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Never saw any merit to it, to be honest. If I can restrain myself from killing people who annoy or provoke me, others can restrain themselves from raping women who are dressed scantily. No matter how much you want to hit that, it will rarely be worth committing a serious crime. Also, it's practically an affront to men to assume that if a female is dressed provocatively, the male somehow is not responsible for his own actions on account of his overriding lust. We're not animals, if you make the decision to rape someone, it's your fault.

But I don't think it was ever used as an excuse for rape, more of a preventative measure for females. Don't dress like a slut, and you're less likely to be raped than someone who is. Which would make sense if males were uncontrollable rapists, but I'm pretty sure they're not. Women shouldn't even have to try and diminish their chances of being raped, it just shouldn't happen.

EDIT: Oh wait, I'm living in the wrong country, it is used as an EXCUSE all the f***ing time. In which case, that's just silly.

EDIT 2: And no, if the girl is drunk and has consentual sex, accusing someone of rape afterwards is not an excuse either. You have to be averse to having sex for it to be rape, not just suffering a bout of poor decision making.

EDIT 3:

It's a disgusting excuse. And everyone who believes that that excuse is justified should be the ones getting raped.

Well that escalated quickly.

 

[Hagi]

It's an utterly retarded thing to say. Even in the whole warning sense.

As has been mentioned a dozen times already there's as much evidence for video games playing a part in real violence as there is for provocative clothing playing a part in real rape. On top of that even if that was the case it wouldn't help anything at all.

All those 'warnings' start with "given that there are rapists", which means someone's going to get raped. Not wearing provocative clothing in this imaginary universe where that has anything to do with rape at all isn't going to stop that rape, best case it's going to happen to someone else. Given that there's a rapist he's gonna rape someone, that's what makes him/her a rapist.

This warning prevented exactly nothing at all, except for propagating the idea that the victim could have avoided the crime if she'd just been smarter and dressed appropriately (but they're not blaming her! It's more like erm... well... let's just say it's not blame!).

All women everywhere could start dressing in burqas today and rape figures would not drop at all. The excuses will just change. Instead of warning against provocative clothing idiots everywhere will be warning against flashing slightly too much ankle, I mean I don't go around flashing my big fat wallet full of bills either do I?

 

[runic knight]

for the love of...

ok, pretty simple here. First though.

NO SANE PERSON THINKS IT IS THE VICTIM'S FAULT!

There, out of the way? ok lets go then.
This is used when people are trying to find ways to avoid rape. Given how most victims know there rapist and the behavior of most rapist being motivated by control or power, it is very poor advice, but I can understand the rational thought behind it. If you leave a sack of money out where people can see it, it increases the chance to tempt someone into breaking the law and taking it. Thus, in the mind of those who don't know much about why rape occurs, if you look like someone easy to rape by having less clothes. This is untrue though, as rape is not along the same lines within the normal mind as theft. Taking property has always been much more tolerated in society then violence, and humans have evolved, either as individuals or as a society as a whole, to be similar, where theft is easier to commit then violence. Rape, being very violent in the nature of taking control and using force, is harder for the average person to do. This may be why it ties in with the statistics it does, such as victims knowing their attacker when logically it would be smarter to attack someone who couldn't identify you, and why it is often determined to be about control or power rather then just the desire for sex, which is often over simplified to by the same who suggest the "don't dress slutty" advice.

Now, there are some times where this is used not as a means to rationalize something that is unpleasant to accept (rape happening and being less predictable then first thought, thus people less able to defend against it by simple dress codes) but as a means of "defense". The main one that comes to mind is of cases of of claims of rape where the defendant is trying to present the case that it was consensual and the alleged victim changed there perspective after the fact. I don't have any comments about the validity of this as a legitimate defense, the tactic of using a woman's desire for consensual sex prior to when alleged rape sex took place, or the very occurrence or lack there of of women changing their mind after the night and making rape claims for whatever reason they may do so. All that is a toughy messy subject best left not dealt with in these emotional forums.

Back to the main point, yeah, no one in their right mind things a woman dressing like a "slut" excuses someone from raping her. At all. And the opinion of her dress is more a reflection of the average lack of knowledge about how to prevent rape and probably a little self delusion since the reality of "someone you know and trust and never thought would may rape you" being very unsettling. far easier to believe those that flaunt it get their stuff stolen first.

 

[Thaluikhain]

for the love of...

ok, pretty simple here. First though.

NO SANE PERSON THINKS IT IS THE VICTIM'S FAULT!

Unfortunately, that's not remotely true. Or people often think that the victim wasn't a victim, if you prefer. Or you've got a definition of sane that excludes an awfully large number of people.

Victim blaming is a constant, it's one of the reasons the reporting rates for rape are tiny.

A memorable example from a few months back, an 11 year old girl who'd been gang-raped by 21 men and boys for four months was said to have lured them in "like a spider".

 

[knight steel]

I always thought it was a helpful tip rather than an excuse, kinda like when you were a kid and were told don't talk to a stranger, in a perfect world you should be able to talk to strangers without fear. However that's not the case ,if you talk to a stranger and something bad happens it's not your fault but the offenders however if you listened to the advice you would have a better chance of avoiding the situation ^_-

 

[Therumancer]

...
Don't get the impression I'm defending rapists, that's not the point per se, it's simply that I feel handling this kind of thing fairly remains a great blind spot in our legal system. The very fact that someone can ask WHY a mode of dress matters to a case of this sort illustrates the problem in my mind. The same applies to things like a pattern of promiscious behavior, and similar things that have people going "W T F" when they shouldn't, if you were an innocent defendant all of this would matter to you.

I'll even go so far as to say that with some of the messed up things people get up to today, even physical trauma doesn't mean all that much. When people play bondage and S&M games, and awarness of that kind of stuff increases, the types of bruises and such rapidly matter. Today some girl comes in with two black eyes, rope burn, cigarette burns, and whip marks all over her, that doesn't nessicarly mean forced sex, it might come down to "how do I justify this to daddy/my boyfriend/co-workers, since I wasn't expecting to be so messed up afterwards" claiming you were raped gets sympathy, obvious signs you liked to be tied up and tortured during sex (or experimented with it) can get you labeled a freak or even fired for reasons of "company image".

There are all kinds of scenarios out there, and remember, Innocent until proven guilty is supposed to be the #1 rule of our law enforcement system. Any bit of reasonable doubt you can put on accusations of guilt is very important.

Dear god, this whole post. Seriously?

Your idea that rapists should only be convicted if there is physical evidence of forced sexual contact is demented. One of the first thing someone who has been raped often does is take a shower or try to clean themselves, and change their clothes. Rape is sometimes reported weeks or months or even years after it happens because of the psychological trauma involved- those people are just as entitled to justice. Coming forward and labelling yourself as a victim of rape is INCREDIBLY hard. The questions, procedures and medical exams involved are also invasive to someone who has gone through that and very traumatising. Victims of rape can go through a lot of feelings of shame and denial and even be made to think that they 'deserved' it or its their fault. Also what about people who have been drugged against their will? Just because their isn't physical trauma or evidence, even if the rape has occurred recently, doesn't mean someone wasn't raped?! There are a thousand scenarios where this could happen.

".

No offense, but by definition you are saying you disagree with the entire foundation of the criminal justice system in the US. For laws to work there can be no exceptions, otherwise it's not a principle or foundation. Your entire rant simply amounts to the fact that you do not like the answer to the question, and are turning that into personal attacks on me.

Like it or not, the US Justice System, and to be honest the Justice Systems of most of the civilized world, rely on evidence and a presumpsion of innocence. Nobody is to be convicted purely on the say so or testimony of someone else without anything else to reinforce the claim. Everyone gets a chance to defend themselves and create doubt against their accuser. What's more the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is placed on the accuser, the defendant does NOT have to prove themselves innocent.

It doesn't matter if a situation is likely, if people believe only 4% of rape victims or liars, or how warped someone feels the situation is because of how rape victims behave, it's how the law works universally, and in all cases where someone is accused of a crime (unless national security is involved, martial law has been declared, and a few other very rare exceptions, but even so they do not apply in cases of citizen vs. citizen).

I agree with you, as I've said myself, that this is not fair in every single case, indeed I also
believe that beyond the issue of just rape it's responsible for a lot of problems in society. On the other hand it is arguably the lesser of evils.

Yelling at me for telling you how it is is pretty stupid.

Likewise, some of the personal points I've made largely come down to the principle of the system, and the simple fact that in practice the system already fails here as people tend to be convicted of rape without sufficient evidence as things stand now. Whether you think that's right or wrong is a matter of opinion. Speaking personally, and as someone who was raped as a child (by an older kid, when I was like six, trauma I blocked out but know happened), while rape is horrible, there are actually far more situations where I personally think the system could benefit from such bias.

I'll also be honest in saying that rape is one of the crimes that I think would benefit from the legalization of profiling. If someone matching a profile could be used as evidence to reinforce a case, get warrents, dig for further information, you'd probably wind up with a far less ambigious situation on paper. As things stand now you pretty much have to ignore a creep, scumbag, or predator being what they are as a matter of principle.

 

[awolflikeyou]

Equating robbery to rape is just stupid. Firstly people rob other people because they need or want money which is actually understandable and follows some sort of logic. Rapists don't rape because they want sex. Furthermore flashing around cash or a fancy phone is no the same as someone making the decision "hey I like how this looks. I think I'm going to wear this tonight". A women's body something that can be down-played or hidden like an object.

The amount of "slut-shaming" in this thread is kind of scary. Women should be able to dress however they want and sometimes women just want to look nice and like the way they look in a short skirt. Its also helluva hot in clubs and wearing skirts and short dresses is just more comfortable sometimes. The attitude that women dress in skimpy clothes to make other women "jealous" or to attract sexual attention is just not true in most cases. I'll say it again- women want to look nice. Why do you think fashion is such a huge industry? Its about more than saying "hey come have sex with me" its form of personal expression. Men give themselves waaaaay to much credit if they think that the reason most women love clothes and dressing up is to please or attract them.

Also guys aren't raging animals and should be able to control themselves even if a girl is a "tease" and leads them on. Yup its a low and bitchy thing to do but still- when it comes down to it "no" is "no". They can be angry and pissed, sure- but the idea that women who flirt with men somehow "owe" them something for it. ugh. Sex and women are not a commodity and women flirting or dressing a certain way is NOT "false advertising" or "asking for it".

Look, dressing a certain way might make you stand-out more. I know its not an ideal world but what are we suppose to do- dress in a berka? Become sex-less, and life-less, don't flirt, don't drink and stay indoors?

People should dress how the fuck they want. If you wanna go outside in your underwear- so be it?

I'd like to hear better suggestions for guarding against rape like carrying pepper-spray or only travelling groups.

 

[awolflikeyou]

No offense, but by definition you are saying you disagree with the entire foundation of the criminal justice system in the US. For laws to work there can be no exceptions, otherwise it's not a principle or foundation. Your entire rant simply amounts to the fact that you do not like the answer to the question, and are turning that into personal attacks on me.

Like it or not, the US Justice System, and to be honest the Justice Systems of most of the civilized world, rely on evidence and a presumpsion of innocence. Nobody is to be convicted purely on the say so or testimony of someone else without anything else to reinforce the claim. Everyone gets a chance to defend themselves and create doubt against their accuser. What's more the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is placed on the accuser, the defendant does NOT have to prove themselves innocent.

It doesn't matter if a situation is likely, if people believe only 4% of rape victims or liars, or how warped someone feels the situation is because of how rape victims behave, it's how the law works universally, and in all cases where someone is accused of a crime (unless national security is involved, martial law has been declared, and a few other very rare exceptions, but even so they do not apply in cases of citizen vs. citizen).

I agree with you, as I've said myself, that this is not fair in every single case, indeed I also
believe that beyond the issue of just rape it's responsible for a lot of problems in society. On the other hand it is arguably the lesser of evils.

Yelling at me for telling you how it is is pretty stupid.

Likewise, some of the personal points I've made largely come down to the principle of the system, and the simple fact that in practice the system already fails here as people tend to be convicted of rape without sufficient evidence as things stand now. Whether you think that's right or wrong is a matter of opinion. Speaking personally, and as someone who was raped as a child (by an older kid, when I was like six, trauma I blocked out but know happened), while rape is horrible, there are actually far more situations where I personally think the system could benefit from such bias.

I'll also be honest in saying that rape is one of the crimes that I think would benefit from the legalization of profiling. If someone matching a profile could be used as evidence to reinforce a case, get warrents, dig for further information, you'd probably wind up with a far less ambigious situation on paper. As things stand now you pretty much have to ignore a creep, scumbag, or predator being what they are as a matter of principle.

I didn't see your post earlier. I see the point you're trying to make but I prefer the way you expressed yourself this time. I felt like in your earlier post you were over-simplifying by saying rape is only provable by physical trauma and that the system is too lax and "sympathetic" to women. A lot of the time evidence of physical trauma is just not present because of a number of factors- such as rapes only being reported far after the fact. Honestly, though I would rather a few innocent people go to jail than having stricter or more enforced standards of investigating or proving rape. Sounds heartless, but yup. False rape accusation are tiny, tiny minority.

I do agree it would be better for everyone if rape were treated differently but mostly I think its about the changing attitudes in society so that victims of rape should feel safe and unashamed coming forward immediately or as soon as possible. Not only would that make convicting actual rapists easier but the millions of people who don't report rape would also come forward too. In addition false-accusations of rape would probably be better handled. But unfortunately its not a perfect world and this is likely far-off.

As to me attacking you personally. I have my own experience with rape which I'd prefer not to get into...I don't know you, maybe your a nice person. I just really didn't like what you said in your first post.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Do you actually mean to say that people can honestly get away with raping someone just by using this excuse?

I haven't heard of anyone getting away with it because of this excuse (thank god), but I mean to ask how people can rationalise this in their heads.

Well then I guess it's quite simply the fact that people will say whatever they can to try and absolve themselves of blame once they realise they're well and truly up s**t creek reagrdless of what that kind of excuse actually says about them as an individual in their mind it's still a reassurance to tell them that they actually aren't the pathetic, depraved rapist everyone else now thinks they are.

I understand that rapists are desperate, but here's the thing; people who have no relation to a rape case will still parrot this opinion. Why?

The only non-rapists that promote this notion are the local wahhabi salafi crowd. Together with the feminist folks, they really bring the hate down on local H&M ads. It's a merry bunch.

It's especially bad on weekends, so we've already tried getting our weekends adapted so the new week wouldn't start on Mondays, but on Saturdays instead. So far, we've had no success.

I only had proper insight for about two years prior to and some years after 9/11, but a close friend of ours went through a crisis during uni, and instead of going for the 'traditional' therapist plus medication thing, he just went to hang with the hardcore bearded nightgown beards of war, which only seemed to complicate and degenerate things further. The beards of war have publicly been replaced with 'more moderate' teachers, instructors, speakers and 'clergymen' (I use the term loosely), but they still all go to the same mosques, so I doubt the general idea will disappear anytime soon, as it is obviously written in eternal rules and laws somewhere. Quite a bummer, that.

 

[wolfyrik]

I don't get why people still use this as a defense for rape. Why do people try to shift the blame onto the women in a situation where the man is still entirely at fault for, you know, having such little self-control that he has to fuck a woman the second that he gets a boner. This is a defense that's still used, and yet, it's one that already assumes that the man is guilty of rape; it simply tries to shift the blame for the crime onto the victim. How do people still believe in this?

It's common fallacious logic called Fair World Syndrome. It's the polar opposite of Mean World but people often use the two side by side. It's basically lazy thinking.

"That person is rich, this must mean they work hard and are better people" - Except they could be criminals or have inherited wealth and never worked a day in their life. Or both.

"That person is poor, they must be lazy and a bad person/they probably drunk away their money" - Never mind that a good person can be poor, infact poor people are known to give more time and meager income to charity, may have lost their job, have never drunk a day in their lives etc.

"That child is being bullied, it's cos they have dyed hair/stand out too much/too different" - Or there's a bullying problem in the school, the bullies have problems at home or are just pricks.

"That woman has been raped, well she must have been dressed provacatively/drunk/flirty/said something to lead him on/slut" - ad Infinitum never mind that men have minds of their own and are not some kind of slave to their emotions.

What upsets me more is that women can be just as guilty of this as men. Gender doesn't seem to be much of a factor in it hardly at all. Of course you see entirely the opposite when people are talking about male rape. It's a rare occurrence (outside of public schools and prison) and so lazy thinkers can't quite get their heads around it. They just end up shocked, unthinking and then tend to forget about it.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Equating robbery to rape is just stupid. Firstly people rob other people because they need or want money which is actually understandable and follows some sort of logic. Rapists don't rape because they want sex. Furthermore flashing around cash or a fancy phone is no the same as someone making the decision "hey I like how this looks. I think I'm going to wear this tonight". A women's body something that can be down-played or hidden like an object.

Everything you said is right on spot with the thinking currently going on at our local mosques, and it's even taught to little kids.

And, yes, their solution to the problem is indeed burka ninja gear (amongst other measures).

To my knowledge, it is never mentioned in the original source material, but, somehow, the societies this culture is rooted in did, indeed, opt for the veil and the sword, for more severe cases of insubordination.

The males are indeed brought up to develop a very 'anything goes' self-service mindset, and it would be considered extremely racist and unfair to ask for the males to change their ways. It would, in fact, be considered blashpemy and worthy of some heavy-handed retribution.

It's cool if you haven't heard about all this before, bless you.

 

[Hagi]

It's especially bad on weekends, so we've already tried getting our weekends adapted so the new week wouldn't start on Mondays, but on Saturdays instead. So far, we've had no success.

I'm not quite sure what exactly you're talking about but I do very much approve of the solution of moving the weekends in order to solve bad things happening on weekends.

Pure brilliance!

 

[Hagi]

This is why we can't have nice things, so few people are able to think properly, and when they do they get shouted down by the unthinking majority.
In this case the robbery analogy is exactly valid, the robber wants items of monetary value, the rapist wants sex and the feeling of power that goes along with the rape.
The clothing issue is down to selection of targets, while I think that women should be able to walk around naked without fear of being raped because I am a civilised human being, it's obvious that a woman wearing less clothing will appear as an easier target for a rapist, she'll probably have been out drinking (assuming it's 3am) so she won't be in full command of herself, she probably won't be carrying anything that can be used as an effective weapon, and if she's walking home alone she may well be walking a long way through deserted areas at night.
All this adds up to a perfect target for the rapist, it's not that she is "asking for it" in the sense that dressing slutty is consent (of course it isn't!) she's "asking for it" in the sense that the guy loudly announcing his wealth is "asking to be robbed", she isn't inviting the rape IN ANY FORM WHATSOEVER! but she is advertising herself as an easy target.
Advising people not to appear as easy targets for rapists is not a bad thing! It doesn't change the abhorrent nature of rape, and it shouldn't be an issue to be discussed (as rape shouldn't happen).

It's like you were walking through a field and a landmine went off and obliterated your friend walking next to you.
You could remonstrate with the fact that there aren't supposed to be any mines here and carry on walking in a self-righteous huff about inappropriate minefield placement, but you're going to come to grief!
Doesn't make the whole thing your fault, because the mines shouldn't have been there.

Like minefields, rape should not exist, but given that it does we should all try to guard against it, and suggesting ways to avoid an unfortunate reality is in no way the same as condoning it.

I appreciate that most rapes are not this kind of "rapist follows random victim to secluded area" that I'm referring to, but why not try to guard yourself against that happening?

Indeed, this is why in countries like India where clothing like the Burqa and other conservative dresses are frequently worn by women rape is hardly a problem at all, none of these women are advertising themselves as easy targets. Because wearing extra clothing is a sure way to protect yourself from sexual predators.

Oh... Wait...

 

[runic knight]

for the love of...

ok, pretty simple here. First though.

NO SANE PERSON THINKS IT IS THE VICTIM'S FAULT!

Unfortunately, that's not remotely true. Or people often think that the victim wasn't a victim, if you prefer. Or you've got a definition of sane that excludes an awfully large number of people.

Victim blaming is a constant, it's one of the reasons the reporting rates for rape are tiny.

A memorable example from a few months back, an 11 year old girl who'd been gang-raped by 21 men and boys for four months was said to have lured them in "like a spider".

Well I probably define sane too narrowly then. Though I suppose in my defense I meant "No sane person who would post here". Though, you know what? No, gonna keep it the same and just say that yeah, if you are blaming the victim you are doing reasoning wrong and forfeit the right to claim sanity as there is no logical or rational justification for blaming a victim for the actions of someone they don't have a damn gun to the head of.

As for victim blaming and the rest of that though, I think I already went over how the idea of provocative clothes leads to rape came about in part and all that other crap. Though... what is the range of our classification and all? First world, third world, entire world? I recall a girl got raped on a train in the news over in india or something, not exactly sure I see a lot of point kicking the dead horse of "backwards, rural areas and countries without same standard of civil liberties as first world nations are backwards." Yes it still exist in first world nations and stuff, but someone says on the news that a rape victim (not alleged victim but one where there is no reason to question the validity of the claim) was to blame for her own rape and watch them get torn to pieces (see politicians and recent rape body defense crap). The main issue is the alleged ones where the occurrence is not as certain and then people start jumping all over with speculation, trying to lay blame or explain what happened or why and everything else.


But yeah, I stand by my statement, if you think a victim forced their attacker to rape them, you are not mentally fit to vote, own a gun or be able to wander around unsupervised because lack of rationality that bad will mean problems I am sure.

 

[Lieju]

EDIT 2: And no, if the girl is drunk and has consentual sex, accusing someone of rape afterwards is not an excuse either. You have to be averse to having sex for it to be rape, not just suffering a bout of poor decision making.

Lack of indicating they do not want to have sex =/= consent.

If someone has sex with an unconscious person, the person isn't saying 'no', but it's still rape.

Alcohol makes these kinds of things difficult, especially if the people were so drunk they don't remember, but if the other partner is not drunk, having sex with someone who is not thinking clearly is a bit iffy, and even rape, depending on if they pass out or something.

What upsets me more is that women can be just as guilty of this as men. Gender doesn't seem to be much of a factor in it hardly at all. Of course you see entirely the opposite when people are talking about male rape. It's a rare occurrence (outside of public schools and prison) and so lazy thinkers can't quite get their heads around it. They just end up shocked, unthinking and then tend to forget about it.

Yeah, there is the unfortunate implication that men who get raped deserve it. I have heard men/boys say countless times 'I would never let myself be raped', which indicates that people who do get raped were weak. A lot of men want to think rape is only something that happens to women and weak men.
Furthermore, men being raped is also assosiated with prison, and the idea is that people in prison are bad people, and even that prison-rape is okay because it's one more reason not to do illegal things...