The rampant Sexualization in videogames

[FieryTrainwreck]

...Men are generally aggressive, muscle-bound douche bags who feel justified in killing pretty much any other man. Women are generally helpless, busty sex objects.

Did some minor corrections to that one for you.
Also, the market isn't going to change before the public opinion does, that's why we have the forum threads, articles and youtube videos. To create a discourse to alter public perception.

Edit: yeah, I think attaching "generally" to what are obviously generalizations to anyone with a brain is kind of unnecessary. Should I also put "I think" before everything I type, or can we all safely assume that people are sharing opinions here?

Is there some magic number that will successfully shame people into feeling a certain way?

The sad, harsh truth about the internet (and most of human discourse throughout recorded time) is that no one ever changes anyone's mind. Take a guy who buys and enjoys Dragon's Crown. You honestly believe a handful of articles about the overly sexualized female characters would dissuade him from making the same choice? How many articles must he consume exactly? What's the shaming threshold? Short of outlawing something, you can't erase a market like that.

You can tap a new market and give the industry greater balance, but that requires money and risk. I mean if it ever were going to happen, there will probably be some clear watershed moment wherein a developer punches through all of the preconceived notions and rakes in untold fortunes by appealing to more unique and intelligent tastes. I'll applaud it when/if it happens. But wringing our hands over the existing paradigm is pointless when we know "the solution". At this point we're just waiting for someone to put their money where their mouth is.

Incidentally, this would have been a far, far better cause for a Kickstarter than a series of videos examining and explaining what anyone with a brain already knows and recognizes.

 

[Stephen St.]

Wow, those are some seriously interesting statistics. Thanks for taking the time to post that. Some numbers lack reliable conclusions, though.

Workplace deaths - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality (as well as the sources cited in the wikipedia article)

Men are 80% of US suicides (85% in Canada) - http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm

What conclusions do you draw from these two statistics? It seem obvious that men are engaged in more dangerous jobs than women, and it seems likely that this is a cultural phenomenon. I would argue that this is caused by the fact that women generally migrated into the workplace via office jobs and healthcare and associated fields. The great historical disparity between the available jobs for the two sexes is still very much in place, so I don't know what other inferences we could draw from that.

Men are, apparently, more likely to commit suicide. Your claim is apparently this is because society treats them as inherently worthless. I would instead argue that Men are encouraged to be self-sufficient and furthermore supporting their family. Inability to live up to these expectations can lead to severe depression and suicide. Again I see no clear link to a theme of "disposability".

?The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father."
http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm

While I am dubious about the article, there is a very real problem with disparate treatment of fathers when it comes to support and child custody. I think this is being acknowledged by more and more countries nowadays, I know Germany has been gradually passing laws that made it easier for fathers to gain child custody and defend themselves against wrongful assertions of fatherhood.

The apparent discrepancy in the laws seems to stem from the premise that mothers are inherently more responsible and more able to care for children, a belief that I find sexist and wrong. Has nothing to do with disposability, though.

Male rape victims are much more prevalent mostly because of prison rape.
Outside of prison, rape statistics greatly favour women because of feminists lobbying (chiefly the National Organisation for Women) to exclude male victims from the definition of rape by classifying "rape by envelopment" as not constituting rape, but merely sexual assault.
Compare the numbers of men forced to penetrate to the numbers of women raped in the 12 month statistic on pages 18 and 19 (page 28 and 29 on the scroll bar) of the CDC's NISVS report of 2010:
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

I could speculate on the HUGE discrepancy between the stats for the last 12 months and the lifetime stats, but that would merely be speculation.

The difference in definitions is kinda fishy, I agree. Even if we take that into account though, women are still more likely to experience sexual violence and/or harrasment, in some areas vastly so.

As for the criminals sentencing disparities:
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/judged-bashes-probation-department-gender-bias-favor-leniency-girls-article-1.473763

False rape claims:
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.dk/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html

Title IX removing rights to due process:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510.html?mod=hp_opinion#articleTabs%3Darticle

There is good evidence for a significant problem with gender bias in court cases, especially with regard to sexual violence. There might be several reasons for this, the most likely seems to be that women are not generally viewed to be actively violent, but rather passive and kind. Which, funnily enough, is exactly the stereotype that appears in video games and in the case of court cases, leads to a disadvantage to male defendants. I guess we should really fight that stereotype, then!

Male domestic violence victims:
The source for those stats is the same CDC NISVS report as the rape/forced to penetrate statistics, I don't remember which pages skin through it yourself, it should pop up.

I skinned through it, and could not find that number. Given that the only statistic that is even close to being even between the sexes is psychological violence (which seems to be close to 50/50), I find that statement unlikely, but I would be happy to be educated.

Disparity between sexes in healthcare:
Google "federal offices for women's health", then google "federal offices for men's health".
Google how much funding breast cancer research gets, then google how much funding prostate cancer research gets. And yes, those two types of cancer have roughly the same rates of victimization and death.
When's the last time you even heard of fund raising campaigns for prostate cancer? I can name one, that always seems to catch flak for creeping women out, what with so many men suddenly growing out their "creepy" mustaches for Movember.

I cannot find any good number for funding, since its broken up between so many organisations. I personally do not remember prostate cancer research ever getting flak, so I don't think we can use that as any anecdotal evidence. Furthermore, funding for research isn't administered by a central agency. There might be any number of factors at work, and I don't see how we can draw meaningful inferences without venturing into conspiracy theorist territory.

Discrimination against boys in education:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/boys/factsheets/ed/index.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqOTj9NDv80

Your fact sheet doesn't include one word about discrimination. It is, instead, a writeup about the very real challenges that boys face in school because male development, especially during puberty, works different from female development, and that disadvantages boys in the current educational system. It is an issue that has only recently come to light because, for the last centuries, girls have not have equal opportunities to boys with regard to education. I am still wathcing the video, but other than some groups lobbying against the reasonable (surprise!) I see no indication for any targeted discrimination.

Edit: The video does make some good examples of actual discrimination against boys, though obviously it is hard to tell whether this is an intended policy or a side effect of ignorance. I think the mindset behind the lack of measures is pretty well presented in the video: Teachers and administrators are ignorant to the specific differences in development and the resulting need for different methods. Everything is supposed to be one standard for everyone, and since girls happen to be easier to integrate into the current system, the choosen standard is girl. So the boys, as stated by the video, get treated as a foreign body, and suffer as a result. I am all for adressing that problem. I don't think it's intrinsically related with the videogame discussion, though.

 

[CFriis87]

Wow, those are some seriously interesting statistics. Thanks for taking the time to post that. Some numbers lack reliable conclusions, though.

Workplace deaths - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality (as well as the sources cited in the wikipedia article)

Men are 80% of US suicides (85% in Canada) - http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm

What conclusions do you draw from these two statistics? It seem obvious that men are engaged in more dangerous jobs than women, and it seems likely that this is a cultural phenomenon. I would argue that this is caused by the fact that women generally migrated into the workplace via office jobs and healthcare and associated fields. The great historical disparity between the available jobs for the two sexes is still very much in place, so I don't know what other inferences we could draw from that.

Men are, apparently, more likely to commit suicide. Your claim is apparently this is because society treats them as inherently worthless. I would instead argue that Men are encouraged to be self-sufficient and furthermore supporting their family. Inability to live up to these expectations can lead to severe depression and suicide. Again I see no clear link to a theme of "disposability".

?The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father."
http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm

While I am dubious about the article, there is a very real problem with disparate treatment of fathers when it comes to support and child custody. I think this is being acknowledged by more and more countries nowadays, I know Germany has been gradually passing laws that made it easier for fathers to gain child custody and defend themselves against wrongful assertions of fatherhood.

The apparent discrepancy in the laws seems to stem from the premise that mothers are inherently more responsible and more able to care for children, a belief that I find sexist and wrong. Has nothing to do with disposability, though.

Male rape victims are much more prevalent mostly because of prison rape.
Outside of prison, rape statistics greatly favour women because of feminists lobbying (chiefly the National Organisation for Women) to exclude male victims from the definition of rape by classifying "rape by envelopment" as not constituting rape, but merely sexual assault.
Compare the numbers of men forced to penetrate to the numbers of women raped in the 12 month statistic on pages 18 and 19 (page 28 and 29 on the scroll bar) of the CDC's NISVS report of 2010:
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

I could speculate on the HUGE discrepancy between the stats for the last 12 months and the lifetime stats, but that would merely be speculation.

The difference in definitions is kinda fishy, I agree. Even if we take that into account though, women are still more likely to experience sexual violence and/or harrasment, in some areas vastly so.

As for the criminals sentencing disparities:
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/judged-bashes-probation-department-gender-bias-favor-leniency-girls-article-1.473763

False rape claims:
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.dk/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html

Title IX removing rights to due process:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510.html?mod=hp_opinion#articleTabs%3Darticle

There is good evidence for a significant problem with gender bias in court cases, especially with regard to sexual violence. There might be several reasons for this, the most likely seems to be that women are not generally viewed to be actively violent, but rather passive and kind. Which, funnily enough, is exactly the stereotype that appears in video games and in the case of court cases, leads to a disadvantage to male defendants. I guess we should really fight that stereotype, then!

Male domestic violence victims:
The source for those stats is the same CDC NISVS report as the rape/forced to penetrate statistics, I don't remember which pages skin through it yourself, it should pop up.

I skinned through it, and could not find that number. Given that the only statistic that is even close to being even between the sexes is psychological violence (which seems to be close to 50/50), I find that statement unlikely, but I would be happy to be educated.

Disparity between sexes in healthcare:
Google "federal offices for women's health", then google "federal offices for men's health".
Google how much funding breast cancer research gets, then google how much funding prostate cancer research gets. And yes, those two types of cancer have roughly the same rates of victimization and death.
When's the last time you even heard of fund raising campaigns for prostate cancer? I can name one, that always seems to catch flak for creeping women out, what with so many men suddenly growing out their "creepy" mustaches for Movember.

I cannot find any good number for funding, since its broken up between so many organisations. I personally do not remember prostate cancer research ever getting flak, so I don't think we can use that as any anecdotal evidence. Furthermore, funding for research isn't administered by a central agency. There might be any number of factors at work, and I don't see how we can draw meaningful inferences without venturing into conspiracy theorist territory.

Discrimination against boys in education:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/boys/factsheets/ed/index.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqOTj9NDv80

Your fact sheet doesn't include one word about discrimination. It is, instead, a writeup about the very real challenges that boys face in school because male development, especially during puberty, works different from female development, and that disadvantages boys in the current educational system. It is an issue that has only recently come to light because, for the last centuries, girls have not have equal opportunities to boys with regard to education. I am still wathcing the video, but other than some groups lobbying against the reasonable (surprise!) I see no indication for any targeted discrimination.

I'm not saying that these statistics directly are signs of male disposability, I'm saying the lack of focus on these issues is a sign of male disposability.
It's not like nobody knew about any of this before I posted it here, just that nobody cared enough to do anything about it.

"The difference in definitions is kinda fishy, I agree. Even if we take that into account though, women are still more likely to experience sexual violence and/or harrasment, in some areas vastly so."
I assume you mean in some geographical areas, as in the western world, the "rape culture" found in prisons (prison rape was not factored in the CDC survey) and correctional facilities actually make men the most prevalent victims.

Here's a little extra:
94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09. - http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09. - http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf

50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It?s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia. - http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf

According to the 2009 United States National Crime Victimization Survey estimates, only 55% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. When a male is raped, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey.

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.
Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries... as opposed to the prisons and jails of ONE country.


I don't think I've ever heard of research into prostate cancer being criticized either, but I have heard petty criticisms leveled at the only fundraising even I know to be dedicated to it.

 

[rob_simple]

The OP's weak attempt at a several-months-too-late joke aside, it's not just me that sees gaming, and any media that was for the longest time targeted specifically at male adolescents, making big steps past the objectification of women stage, is it?

I mean, as a community, we basically laugh characters like Duke Nukem out of the room, now, and since I still excuse Dragon's Crown as a parody, it's been a long time since I've seen anything in games that can hold a candle to the way Image Comics was depicting women in the 90's (and probably still is today, I wouldn't know, because fuck Rob Liefeld.)

There's still a long road to travel, and it certainly doesn't help that the detractors of Anita Sarkeesian set the scale back a few years or so every time she releases a video, but I think we're getting there.

 

[silversnake4133]

It's an avatar in a fantasy setting that has nothing to do with real life. Please stop seeing them as anything more than just that. These are feathers that need to stop being ruffled. We each have our little fantasies of who we would like to be and what we like other avatars to look like, but in reality those ambitions are very limited, and those worth having around keep fantasy and reality separate. Also this just isn't a problem with video games, it's the same in literature, movies, advertising, etc. Anything that can be deemed "entertainment" will have skewed versions of reality to make something seem better than it can be at times, or it allows us to live out our fantasies.

 

[CFriis87]

Male domestic violence victims:
The source for those stats is the same CDC NISVS report as the rape/forced to penetrate statistics, I don't remember which pages skin through it yourself, it should pop up.

I skinned through it, and could not find that number. Given that the only statistic that is even close to being even between the sexes is psychological violence (which seems to be close to 50/50), I find that statement unlikely, but I would be happy to be educated.
_______

Edit: The video does make some good examples of actual discrimination against boys, though obviously it is hard to tell whether this is an intended policy or a side effect of ignorance. I think the mindset behind the lack of measures is pretty well presented in the video: Teachers and administrators are ignorant to the specific differences in development and the resulting need for different methods. Everything is supposed to be one standard for everyone, and since girls happen to be easier to integrate into the current system, the choosen standard is girl. So the boys, as stated by the video, get treated as a foreign body, and suffer as a result. I am all for adressing that problem. I don't think it's intrinsically related with the videogame discussion, though.

You're right, my bad, I got my studies and surveys mixed up.
This is my source for the stats on male victims of domestic violence:
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf

When I was a kid, boys did significantly better with the models of learning in school that were used then, and I'm only 26. This would indicate that something has indeed changed in the education system to benefit girls at the cost of boys.

The reason I'm bringing all of this up in a video-game discussion, is the claim that the objectification and depiction of men as disposable, is either not perpetuating a real life phenomenon, or at least not one that is as damaging as the objectification/sexualisation of women as seen in games and other media.
I'm bringing all this up to support my argument that the objectification of men in gaming is at least as damaging as the objectification of women in gaming. Not saying that men are committing suicide in droves over being objectified and dehumanized in games and movies, I'm just saying that the depictions of men in said media is somewhat representative of the collective zeitgeist in the western world.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I mean, as a community, we basically laugh characters like Duke Nukem out of the room, now, and since I still excuse Dragon's Crown as a parody, it's been a long time since I've seen anything in games that can hold a candle to the way Image Comics was depicting women in the 90's (and probably still is today, I wouldn't know, because fuck Rob Liefeld.)

There's still a long road to travel, and it certainly doesn't help that the detractors of Anita Sarkeesian set the scale back a few years or so every time she releases a video, but I think we're getting there.

Yes, I think we will. And maybe that's the real reason some folks are so butthurt? Sucks to be on the losing side of history.

And, who knows, a number of years down the road, we might see a movie critic complaining about the dearth of good female characters in blockbuster movies, and point to games as a positive counter example? Wouldn't that be cool?

 

[rob_simple]

Yes, I think we will. And maybe that's the real reason some folks are so butthurt? Sucks to be on the losing side of history.

But who's losing here? If gaming becomes more inclusive, then surely that can only be a good thing? I always thought it was a joke that there were men who thought girls were coming to take their games away, surely people don't actually think like that?

 

[Angus]

Men are, apparently, more likely to commit suicide. Your claim is apparently this is because society treats them as inherently worthless. I would instead argue that Men are encouraged to be self-sufficient and furthermore supporting their family. Inability to live up to these expectations can lead to severe depression and suicide. Again I see no clear link to a theme of "disposability".

The fact that neither of us was told of these statistics is a clear indicator that men are disposable- its not weird in evolutionary terms either that such a culture would inevatably arise.
This disposability is common in most males in most species.

Its not morally right to think that way, but its not just by chance that both you and I probably pictured a sad emo-chick with a razor when we thought of suicide, not an unemployed 20+ year old man, or a divorced father or husband.


In sweden newspapers there was great debate about "alvedon-girls" girls that killed themselves with painkillers, but never about the 80% of suicides that are amongst men because of depression, often caused due to not being needed.
Men would rather be drafted in WW1 than bear the shame of being given a white feather from a girl. That says a lot.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

I absolutely adore how the men who try to shift the focus of female outrage by pointing out how male characters are sexualized too, seem to share the universal and utterly hilarious delusion that Kratos or Marcus Phoenix actually attract a significant number of female fans.

Sorry, boys. If you want to make your point, I'm afraid you're going to have to point out some of those androgynous japanese characters you hate so much, not the testosterone poisoned he-men you wish you were. Sephiroth makes more fangirls in a day than Marcus Phoenix will ever have in his entire existence.

Those that say that are screwing up the argument.

It's not that men are sexualised as well, it's that the portrayal of men is sexist as well.

Games reinforce the archaic notion that "Heroism" is about Physical strength and violence based on obsolete gender roles.

Now before you say "It's still designed for males", yes, It's for males, just as magazines like Vogue are for women.

[Ok maybe not vogue, but magazines targeted at girls, usually teen, that imply this is how you should look]
That doesn't mean they're any less harmful.

The Jock that is a jock because jocks get all the girls would probably like us all to hold onto these archaic notions.

While I would like to see our society trend away from vain and petty concerns, I don't see men suffering from the same degree of body disphoria that women do. Maybe that's because men are allowed to be things besides pretty. How often do non-pretty women get to be anything in any kind of media vs men that get to be ugly and- strong, brave, smart, diplomatic, cunning, crafty, etc...

Actually that's changing for the worse

http://www.msoe.edu/life_at_msoe/current_student_resources/student_resources/counseling_services/newsletters_for_mental_health/body_image_dissatisfaction.shtml

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FY/FY96200.pdf

http://www.raderprograms.com/affected-groups/men-eating-disorders.html

 

[Stephen St.]

I'm not saying that these statistics directly are signs of male disposability, I'm saying the lack of focus on these issues is a sign of male disposability.
It's not like nobody knew about any of this before I posted it here, just that nobody cared enough to do anything about it.

Nothing is done about workplace security? Nothing is done about suicide prevention? I have the feeling that a lot of ground has been made with regards to workplace security and the prevention and subsequent therapy of suicides. Those programmes would, according to statistics, have predominantly benefited males, so I don't think your conclusion is warranted.

I assume you mean in some geographical areas, as in the western world, the "rape culture" found in prisons (prison rape was not factored in the CDC survey) and correctional facilities actually make men the most prevalent victims.

Yes, I mean in the western culture, because this entire discussion revolves around the western culture. This also excludes any "rape-sub-culture" that exists in prisons.

Here's a little extra:
94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09. - http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09. - http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf

50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It?s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia. - http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf

There are some additional findings in those studies that I think need to be highlighted:
- The youth and other prisoners abused are primarily homosexual
- The abused persons were predominantly non-white, or minorities(at least concerning staff abuse)
- With regard to prisons, the net effects of prior sexual victimiazation and sexual orientation are higher than the effect of gender

I think that makes explanations other than "males are treated as disposable by society" more likely. It seems like it is predominantly people that are "different" that are victimized:
- The perpetrator is almost always of the other gender
- homosexuals are vastly more likely to be victimized
- People who have already experienced victimization are singled out due to damage done by the previous victimization
- if you have a higher education, you are more likely to be victimized.

Overall, the "male disposability" conclusion seems weak and only take a snapshot of the evidence into account.

According to the 2009 United States National Crime Victimization Survey estimates, only 55% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. When a male is raped, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey.

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.
Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries... as opposed to the prisons and jails of ONE country.


I don't think I've ever heard of research into prostate cancer being criticized either, but I have heard petty criticisms leveled at the only fundraising even I know to be dedicated to it.

There is certainly a huge problem with unreported incidents with regard to sexual victimization. The studies you linked earlier do not use reports, however.
Yeah, being in a prison is bad, and the american penal system is apprently horribly. Certainly a problem that needs to be adressed. Prison reform has been a hot topic for a while now, the problem being that no-one has any idea of how to possibly improve the system. Whats the relevance regarding the discussion about videogames, though?

 

[Someone Depressing]

Everyone gets sexualised in media - particuarly video games. Look at Soul Calibur. Astaroth, and so many others that exist just for fanservice. And then there's Voldo. They gave him buttocks physics... ew.

While it's probably plausible to say that women are sexualised more, looking closer, it's not the case. Men are just considered "less sexualisable or sexy" in the first place, so no one cares as much. I think the reason why anyone cares nowadays is because feminists have been plaging it and stirring shit up.

 

[Stephen St.]

You're right, my bad, I got my studies and surveys mixed up.
This is my source for the stats on male victims of domestic violence:
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf

When I was a kid, boys did significantly better with the models of learning in school that were used then, and I'm only 26. This would indicate that something has indeed changed in the education system to benefit girls at the cost of boys.

The reason I'm bringing all of this up in a video-game discussion, is the claim that the objectification and depiction of men as disposable, is either not perpetuating a real life phenomenon, or at least not one that is as damaging as the objectification/sexualisation of women as seen in games and other media.
I'm bringing all this up to support my argument that the objectification of men in gaming is at least as damaging as the objectification of women in gaming. Not saying that men are committing suicide in droves over being objectified and dehumanized in games and movies, I'm just saying that the depictions of men in said media is somewhat representative of the collective zeitgeist in the western world.

Wow, you are well prepared. Kudos to you for actually conducting a reasonable discussion.
I think you actually have me convinced that sexism against men has actually taken some alarming proportions in some sectors.

I just can't follow your conclusion. I see there are problems, but relating everything to "male disposability" just seems flimsy to me. I will adress that together with another quote:

The fact that neither of us was told of these statistics is a clear indicator that men are disposable- its not weird in evolutionary terms either that such a culture would inevatably arise.
This disposability is common in most males in most species.

Its not morally right to think that way, but its not just by chance that both you and I probably pictured a sad emo-chick with a razor when we thought of suicide, not an unemployed 20+ year old man, or a divorced father or husband.


In sweden newspapers there was great debate about "alvedon-girls" girls that killed themselves with painkillers, but never about the 80% of suicides that are amongst men because of depression, often caused due to not being needed.
Men would rather be drafted in WW1 than bear the shame of being given a white feather from a girl. That says a lot.

I do agree with the premise that, biologically speaking, in a human population males are more expendable than females due to reproduction. That certainly also has informed human society to a big extent. But thats not the whole picture.

Our current society is also heavily influenced by the ideals of enlightenment. And that particular period saw men in positions of power pretty much everywhere. That seems a little bit counter-intuitive: How is the group of people with most of the political and social power also the "disposable" group? Or is the disposable culture something very recent? In that case, what has created it?