The real problem with "that scene" in Man of Steel (DCCU spoilers)

[twistedmic]

The real problem with Man of Steel (and the other DC movies really, is that it is a DC movie.
A large, or just vocal, number of people seem to only want Marvel movies and will immediately decry any non-Marvel movie as absolute shit the minute it is announced while simultaneously defending every Marvel movie with equal ferocity.
Civil War had just as many flaws as Batman v Superman yet the Marvel movie is, for some reason "The greatest Comic Book movie ever" while the DC movie is a worthless pile of shit barely better than a Paulie Shore movie.
Suicide Squad was denigrated at every step of the way and Wonder Woman and Justice League were already being called failures before production even wrapped.
And at the same time Marvel is forgiven for every weak villain, low/no-stakes fight or failed attempt at an emotional moment.
Spoiler for Civil War

Spoiler

Batman v Superman was absolutely ridiculed for it's "Martha" scene while Civil War did not receive nearly as much flak for its "He killed my mom." scene despite the fact that both scenes were supposed to evoke the same feelings.

 

[DoPo]

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

I've never actually played injustice but am a little leery whenever a video game plot is directly adapted to film. It's been attempted in earnestness many times and has worked exactly zero of them.

Wait, I thought the game itself was based on comics. So wouldn't the movies also be based on the comics?

No, I'm pretty certain that the comics are based on the game. A tie-in.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. I sort of assume that pretty much all adaptations are based on some comic or another.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

I've never actually played injustice but am a little leery whenever a video game plot is directly adapted to film. It's been attempted in earnestness many times and has worked exactly zero of them.

Wait, I thought the game itself was based on comics. So wouldn't the movies also be based on the comics?

The game came first and the comics that it spawned were basically tie-in comics to market the game.

But the idea of Superman being a Dictator because Lois died is not a new thing, The DCAU Superman series had a whole episode about that. (Forgot the name but its when Lois was somehow sent forward in time and Supemran thought she was dead so Lex to advantage of his state and together they rule the world with an Iron Fist)

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Speaking of which I be surprised if they followed the Injustice story faithfully.

Have Jerad Leto Joker set up this plan, to have a drugged Superman kill a Pregnant Lois thinking she was Doomsday and somehow encode her blood to trigger a Nuclear Bomb to utterly destroy Metropolis AND Smallville* (That was my own addition, did not happen in Injustice) to the point where Supes does this to Jerad Leto Joker:

 

[oRevanchisto]

This video should explain to you why Man of Steel is such a poor movie, including why the killing Zod scene at the end makes no sense:

https://youtu.be/teTOkGXa_W8

But, to briefly sum up the problems with that scene, it makes no narrative sense. It's treated as this big emotional moment except for the fact that the movie forgot to actually setup to the audience that Superman doesn't kill. The entire time he was fighting Zod and his cronies it looked like Clark was trying to kill them, at no point does he discuss some moral code of his or the sanctity of life. So when he kills Zod at the end the whole thing falls flat, why should we care that he snapped Zod's neck when the movie never cared about such morals before?

 

[Scarim Coral]

Answer me this, what exactly is Superman alternative should he NOT killed Zodd?

Last time I've remember, they were both locking to each other well Superman had a hold on Zodd. Zodd was using his heat vision to try to killed some family.

Should Superman had follow his ill advice dad and let them be killed or unrestrained him? Maybe he could had hurt Zodd somehow like a heatvision to Zodd arm to make him loose focus but that would had made it worst!

Even then, how exactly does one restrain a god like being especially when kyronite was not mention in MoS at all? Keep him underground with no sunlight but I'm pretty certain that wouldn't had worked at all.

Either way, it was pretty much a lose lose situation for Kal El.

 

[King Billi]

Superman's actions up to and including killing Zod were entirely justified. Why? Because the stakes were the highest they could possibly be.
Everybody on earth was in danger, Zod had made clear his intention to exterminate all of humanity in order to make way for Krypton and said extermination was under way as soon as he activated the world engine. All the devastation in Metropolis was caused by the world engine and the only reason it wasn't much worse and that anybody survived at all was because of Superman.
Even once the world engine was destroyed and the remaining Kryptonians were trapped in the Phantom Zone, Zod still made his intention to wipe out every human on earth. His power was equal to Superman's and there was no way to restrain him. Killing him was the only way to save even more lives.

I really don't see how there is any confusion here? People just don't like the idea of Superman being forced to kill in extreme circumstances, they would just prefer some deus ex machina come along to spare him from having to do so.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And characters like Doomsday, Zod, and Darkseid derserves to die. And that's pretty much my thoughts, Some people derserves redemtpion and fair trial, and some people derserves to die for their evil.

Getting a bit off-topic, but the fair trial is to determine if whether or not a person is (or has done) evil. It's unrelated to whether or not you kill them.

A trial isn't a privilege that's taken away from evildoers. though it might be unnecessary if the evil is not in doubt.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The problem with that scene is that throughout the movie Superman has showed himself to be someone with a complete disregard for human safety. So when that scene happens it means bukis. I mean, he just crashed a ship through multiple likely still occupied skyscrapers, and then proceeds to have a DBZ fight tearing up whatever building's still standing. Considering the mayhem and death he's caused we're supposed to feel for his guilty conscience at killing Zod?!

This is what happens when you have a script that tries to paint Supes as a noble hero directed by a guy who just wants to show him break shit.

 

[DoPo]

The problem with that scene is that throughout the movie Superman has showed himself to be someone with a complete disregard for human safety. So when that scene happens it means bukis.

What is even more, the scene is supposed to also be about Kal-El lamenting the loss of the last (other) person from Krypton. Yet, it wasn't even that long ago when Kal-El himself practically committed genocide and destroyed all other Kryptonians.

 

[jademunky]

Wait, I thought the game itself was based on comics. So wouldn't the movies also be based on the comics?

Was it?!

Lemme check.... ok so there was a comic book but I think the comic book was made to promote the game. Maybe.

 

[maninahat]

I didn't care that superman killed someone. I care that the movie tries to make a big deal out of the fact that Superman killed someone, despite it never being established as being a big deal for him. It isn't like Batman, where they go to pains to show he has a specific code against killing, nowhere in Man of Steel does Superman say "I mustn't kill people". Hell, he could have had a ten year stint in the Army for all the movie tells us about the guy. Because it doesn't set it up, there is no pay-off when Superman snaps Zod and starts yelling at nothing. They needed an earlier scene where Superman ponders whether he can kill someone, or whether he has a duty to protect the last people from his homeworld at the expense of the Earthlings. Then again, they needed to toss this movie in a fire.

The rwal reason I hate superman in that shitty movie is the ridiculous melodrama, dialogue, plotting and general idiocy.

 

[Natemans]

John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die.

This right here, you had one job in this movie Jonathan Kent and you blew it with a single word: "Maybe."

Really, the only way DC could really salvage this is if the faux-grittiness was all intentional and was all a buildup for the reveal that this was the "Kingdom Come" universe. The Flash cameo and his line about Lois maybe kinda sorta implies that.

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

And that Future scene with Batman sort of proves they are setting him up to be this way.

Except the dream sequence makes absolutely no sense in the context of the movie. Plus I don't want Injustice. I'm sick of that game.

 

[Natemans]

Oh no, I have been debating about this with people for some many years now, and you bring this argument BACK?!

Sigh.

My opinion is this as of now.

I don't care that Superman kills, infact I am glad he is man that now Kills his enemies, I don't care if it goes against his character. I grew up with characters in DBZ that kills their enemies and yet no one complains.

I play RPGs where I kill my Enemies, I killed the Lich King in my playthrough of WOW as a holy paladin of the light, I killed Ragnaros the Firelord, in KOTOR I killed Darth Malgus.


And characters like Doomsday, Zod, and Darkseid derserves to die. And that's pretty much my thoughts, Some people derserves redemtpion and fair trial, and some people derserves to die for their evil.

You are glad he kills enemies now? Dude, this goes completely against his moral code. The whole point of Superman is to show a better light or way for humanity to get better. DBZ is different in terms of its moral ethics.

The difference is that those games have different morality choices. Superman in the DCEU had no choice and is just a bland character with no depth and acts like a psychopath.

No, they don't. Even if they were monsters, they deserve some fair trial and locked up. The story "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?" questioned this morality and works as a good character study to prove why Superman is a great character. Plus even in the new 75th anniversary comic of Wonder Woman, she stopped someone, but the crowd was bloodthirsty for his death due to his actions. The thing was she stopped the crowd, let the authorities take him and await for a fair trial.

 

[Natemans]

Speaking of which I be surprised if they followed the Injustice story faithfully.

Have Jerad Leto Joker set up this plan, to have a drugged Superman kill a Pregnant Lois thinking she was Doomsday and somehow encode her blood to trigger a Nuclear Bomb to utterly destroy Metropolis AND Smallville* (That was my own addition, did not happen in Injustice) to the point where Supes does this to Jerad Leto Joker:

I wouldn't. I enjoy playing Injustice, but the story is incredibly uninteresting.

Except Doomsday is dead, the way Jared Leto has acted based on how the number of scenes that were cut from Suicide Squad made him furious and really? Wreck Metropolis for a 3rd time and Smallville a 2nd? That's kinda getting boring at this state. Plus I don't wanna see another horrific imagery that looks like 9/11 again.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Funny part about MoS and BvS is that people get upset over Supes killing someone in the former, even though he's still doing it in the latter, and without seeming unwilling and regretful about it. And I'm not talking about Bats' dream sequence.

That African warlord he saves Lois from at the start?

If the impact of 200lbs of high-speed Man of Steel didn't kill him, then the sudden massive acceleration would, or getting pushed through a couple of walls at high speed. Either of these would turn a human being into a bag of broken bones and burst organs.

Supes killed that dude.

 

[Natemans]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

You say that Zod is strong enough to resist Superman lifting him with his magic powers of a biology that's used to lower gravity (which is an explanation that is both stupid and unneeded), but we'll never know, because Superman that didn't even try. And that's the point. He does almost nothing to stop Zod. There were a shit ton of other ways to go about stopping Zod, but Supes goes for the neck snap. And that just makes him look like a dick.

Why does it make him look like a dick? Why does killing your enemy that IS Evil, makes you evil?!

Am I evil for slaying a Dragon that's burning down village, eating innocent people and sheeps and cows?

Because there's a difference. This is meant to be Superman. He is supposed to show the benefit to mankind, show them a better light to making life better. Also there are like several ways to stop Zod without resorting to killing the guy. And any guilt we were meant to feel for him after he screamed out by his actions are completely forgotten. Consequences? What the hell is that?

 

[Natemans]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

You know Superman can just punch him while flying up to prevent Zod from escaping his grasp. That or you know block the heat vision with his hands.

No, but he can lift a truck, a bus and overcome a beam of gravity from the World Builder thing.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Oh no, I have been debating about this with people for some many years now, and you bring this argument BACK?!

Sigh.

My opinion is this as of now.

I don't care that Superman kills, infact I am glad he is man that now Kills his enemies, I don't care if it goes against his character. I grew up with characters in DBZ that kills their enemies and yet no one complains.

I play RPGs where I kill my Enemies, I killed the Lich King in my playthrough of WOW as a holy paladin of the light, I killed Ragnaros the Firelord, in KOTOR I killed Darth Malgus.


And characters like Doomsday, Zod, and Darkseid derserves to die. And that's pretty much my thoughts, Some people derserves redemtpion and fair trial, and some people derserves to die for their evil.

You are glad he kills enemies now? Dude, this goes completely against his moral code. The whole point of Superman is to show a better light or way for humanity to get better. DBZ is different in terms of its moral ethics.

The difference is that those games have different morality choices. Superman in the DCEU had no choice and is just a bland character with no depth and acts like a psychopath.

No, they don't. Even if they were monsters, they deserve some fair trial and locked up. The story "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?" questioned this morality and works as a good character study to prove why Superman is a great character. Plus even in the new 75th anniversary comic of Wonder Woman, she stopped someone, but the crowd was bloodthirsty for his death due to his actions. The thing was she stopped the crowd, let the authorities take him and await for a fair trial.

Define a Psychopath because everyone just throws that term around to point that its meaningless.

We see Superman in BvS having a job at the Daily Planet having normal interactions with his co-workers, saving people in random intervals. Heck he even wanted to Stop Batman because Batman was acting a above the law vigilante that kills.

How in the fuck is that a Psychopath?!

Also there are games where I had no choice but to slay the villain. And in KOTOR's case you have no choice but to kill Darth Malgus.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

You know Superman can just punch him while flying up to prevent Zod from escaping his grasp. That or you know block the heat vision with his hands.

No, but he can lift a truck, a bus and overcome a beam of gravity from the World Builder thing.

That's the thing, Zod is just as strong as Superman overcoming that.