The real significance of female protagonists

[Vault101]

It doesn't work that way. These people spend years of blood sweat and tears. Then get shat on because they missed up that person with a vagina. And potentially lose money. Yeah, not worth it.

then they are in the wrong buisness...

its funny how people will get angry and even volitile towards developers (see Bioware) but as soon as its in regards to a female issue its all Sympathy...

hoesntly have you ever criticsed a work to the point where you used words like "fucking" or "bullshit"? many of us have

when you create a thing and send it out into the world it is open to criticism, thats a fact of life and it is the right of the audience to critue art, its a FUNDAMENTAL part of art, you can and will get criticied for EVERYTHING

now as a creator what criticism you take on board or dismiss is based on a number of things, weather the crtiic has good points, weather they understand your work or missed something, your own values, how open you are to criticism

ultimatly [b/]what you decide to take on board or discard is up to YOU first and foremost[/b] Ubisoft can take the recent outcry and act on it, justify it...or do nothing, this is not the same as rape or violence threats eather

I wrote a story that had a trans person charachter ,no ones read it obviously as its in my notebook, but lets say it had an audience and somone had issues with my portraly of Trans people, not being a Trans person myself and not knowing any I should be open to what they say, I don't HAVE to agree with everything but if they have a point I can't refute then I'd change it...because then I LEANRED something and as I creator I'd be better for it...but aparently thats an awful thing for the poor developers

 

[Thyunda]

If Unity didn't have the four player co-op, I would understand having a male protagonist. Maybe having a female protagonist would have required the story being altered somewhere along the line. Maybe the game takes place over a couple of years and has a sexual subplot - all the Assassins tend to do it, given that they don't really do any recruiting. That, I would understand. Altair, Ezio, getting pregnant may have spoiled the parkour a little. I didn't mention Connor because he'd have to be likeable before anyone could spend that much time alone with him.

Whatever reasons they might have, I could get that.

But there are four players. Each player sees themselves as Arnaud and everybody else as the other assassins. There is literally no reason one of them couldn't have been female.

There is, and you said it yourself. You're all playing as the exact same guy from the story, just your version of him. He wasn't written as a female, he was written as a male. I don't understand how many people just don't seem to understand that. It makes absolute fuck all sense for Arno to sudden have tits in a co-op session when you're all supposed to be playing his story.

They could always have planned from the start to include a female character as well. Several games share protagonists or allow you to choose which one you wish to experience the game with (Resident Evil has always been good with that ever since the Jill/Chris selection that provided similar, if altered, experiences... and they've been doing that constantly for over 15 years).

I mean, nothing exactly lifts my skirt less than playing as yet ANOTHER dull white guy with a grumbly voice... and now there are FOUR of them.

Could they? Yes. Doesn't mean they have to. It's never been the way they create their protagonists. It's probably why we have this kind of co-op system instead of a separate one or a game co-written with 2. It's just how they do it and that's perfectly fine. They aren't required to create a female protagonist if they don't want to, and they sure as hell don't deserve this retarded backlash of "oh well it should of had a female from the beginning!"

Is that the way game announcements are going to be now? If someone dare creates a game where your protagonists happens to have a dick will they be condemned for it?

If Unity didn't have the four player co-op, I would understand having a male protagonist. Maybe having a female protagonist would have required the story being altered somewhere along the line. Maybe the game takes place over a couple of years and has a sexual subplot - all the Assassins tend to do it, given that they don't really do any recruiting. That, I would understand. Altair, Ezio, getting pregnant may have spoiled the parkour a little. I didn't mention Connor because he'd have to be likeable before anyone could spend that much time alone with him.

Whatever reasons they might have, I could get that.

But there are four players. Each player sees themselves as Arnaud and everybody else as the other assassins. There is literally no reason one of them couldn't have been female.

There is, and you said it yourself. You're all playing as the exact same guy from the story, just your version of him. He wasn't written as a female, he was written as a male. I don't understand how many people just don't seem to understand that. It makes absolute fuck all sense for Arno to sudden have tits in a co-op session when you're all supposed to be playing his story.

It also makes zero sense for there to be four of him.

It makes perfect sense. You're seeing your own Arno in the cutscenes, you're still experiencing the story from his eyes. It's the co-op mode of old. Singleplayer story with your buddies. It's the exact same just being able to play with friends but the crucial part (and I can't seem to stress this enough to anyone who argues it) you're all Arno so you can still experience the single player story as it was intended.

So why can't Player Model 3 be female? Player 3 doesn't need to see his own model as female. It wouldn't alter anything for anyone.

Though the better question is who thought that stupid fucking system up?

Because you're all supposed to be playing as Arno. What part of that seems to escape you and every other person who doesn't understand it? It's a single player story with the option of co-op with your friends yet also making sure that they're not skipping or missing anything out by playing as some random avatar instead of the main character. It's the best of both worlds.

Did you deliberately misinterpret what I said? Each player could see all the other players as giant fucking chickens and it wouldn't affect the gaming experience of the other players, because they'd all see themselves as Arno. I think it would make the game a little bit more immersive if you saw the other players as generic assassins of different genders, races and styles (y'know, to reinforce the lack of division among the revolutionaries) rather than three clones of fuckin Arno. Or does this routinely escape you? That there are FOUR ARNOS.

I know there are four Arnos, and that's the point and I've explained why. I don't really care if it's not a good enough reason for you. The developers shouldn't have to change what they themselves created because a bunch of feminists or SJW's didn't get the minority or gender they wanted to play as. It's their game, not yours.

You didn't explain why yet, actually. You explained why each player individually views themselves as Arno. You haven't said why each player has to view the other players as Arno or why it would harm the game to not see four Arnos. If you don't care that it's not a good enough reason for me, stop replying and go outside or something.

The developers have got a choice - make the game they want to make regardless of focus groups or marketing, or make concessions according to the demands of publisher and public.

Which route do you think they chose to settle on four-player jump-in co-op involving four white dudes?

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

You know what. I sympathise with devs. If they make a woman and people don't like her they get shit. If they don't make any women, they get shit. If it's anything less that perfect, they get shit. I see why they are reluctant to do it. And to be honest, i wouldn't do it either.

people always say this

but so what? they might actually LEARN something

[quote/]Also, you guys what to have more female protagonists? well then , buy the games with female protagonists, actions speak louder than words.

all those AAA games with female protagonists....oh wait[/quote]

There are plenty of games with female protagonist or games where you can play as females. I agree, not as many as males, but when people act like 99% of games are about males it irks me.

From the top of my head, games where you can play as females.

Child of light
Transistor
Walking Dead Season 2Disgea 4
Ultra Street Fighter 4
Destiny
The Banner Saga
Assasin's Creed Liberation
Elder Scrolls Online
Donkey Kong COuntry: Tropical Freeze
Broken Age
Loadout
The WOlf AMong Us
lightning Returns
Rayman Legends
Tales of Symphonia Chronicles
South Park : The Stick of Truth
Titanfall
Dark SOuls 2
jojo's Bizarre Adventure All Star Battle
Civilization 5 DLC
Diablo 3
Tales of Xilia 2
Hyrule Warriors
That new Naruto game coming out
Evolve
Bayonetta 2
Sonic Boom
Dragon AGe Inquisition
Sims 4

And these are all games that cameout or are are coming out this year ( I think. Bayonetta is coming out this year, right?)

And I can name MUCH more if you want ( and a good majority of them will be games released this year or next)

 

[Zeckt]

Delta makes alot of sense to me, the media in particular the escapist has been mud slinging to a crazy degree. Just look at all the featured content forums with all the headlines trashing ubi. Is intimidation the way the escapist wants to go about doing this?

Why not a polite open plea, a video with different men and women all politely asking ubi to reconsider? I guess that won't get headlines, but it's sad to see the escapist resort to mud slinging and having such a negative view like this.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

In response to the thread topic, I don't get why people are mad at Ubisoft for not including a female. I mean, he's the same guy. The co-op is in the vein of Contra or Super Mario Bros. They are just recolered copies of the protagonist. It makes no sense for him to be a girl, then when you exit out of co-op, he'd be a guy again.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

The 4 characters are the same character customised differently, to my knowledge. This is different from having 4 characters in opportunity for diversity. I do like the point you made though, more female protagonists is good, but an individual game isn't necessarily worse for not having one.

 

[krazykidd]

It doesn't work that way. These people spend years of blood sweat and tears. Then get shat on because they missed up that person with a vagina. And potentially lose money. Yeah, not worth it.

then they are in the wrong buisness...

its funny how people will get angry and even volitile towards developers (see Bioware) but as soon as its in regards to a female issue its all Sympathy...

hoesntly have you ever criticsed a work to the point where you used words like "fucking" or "bullshit"? many of us have

when you create a thing and send it out into the world it is open to criticism, thats a fact of life and it is the right of the audience to critue art, its a FUNDAMENTAL part of art, you can and will get criticied for EVERYTHING

now as a creator what criticism you take on board or dismiss is based on a number of things, weather the crtiic has good points, weather they understand your work or missed something, your own values, how open you are to criticism

ultimatly [b/]what you decide to take on board or discard is up to YOU first and foremost[/b] Ubisoft can take the recent outcry and act on it, justify it...or do nothing, this is not the same as rape or violence threats eather

I wrote a story that had a trans person charachter ,no ones read it obviously as its in my notebook, but lets say it had an audience and somone had issues with my portraly of Trans people, not being a Trans person myself and not knowing any I should be open to what they say, I don't HAVE to agree with everything but if they have a point I can't refute then I'd change it...because then I LEANRED something and as I creator I'd be better for it...but aparently thats an awful thing for the poor developers

Except that. They create work, people cry that there's no enough females. They add females, they say they aren't good enough. It's a a lose/lose. We are talking about millions and millions of dollars here. Investments, and the risk isn't worth it. Unjustified hate is what it is.

I think that the reason they stick to making guys, is because no one cares. No matter how you right him, no one bats an eye.If a guy does anything no one gives it shit. But if it's a girl, people care too much. Whatever the girl does goes under observation because people care to much. As if the girl represents somehong more than a guy character.

Let's take this to the exteme. If devs decided to stop making male characters. All women , all the time . You know what. I'd still be playing games, and i'd bet my right testicle, that most people would still play games too. Because ultimately it doesn't matter what gender the people you are playing as , as long as the game if fun.

I think this whole thing is blown way out of perportion, and people are just looking for things to complain about at this point. If you are playing a game because of what a character has between their legs, you're doing it very, very wrong.

 

[zombiejoe]

You know what. I sympathise with devs. If they make a woman and people don't like her they get shit. If they don't make any women, they get shit. If it's anything less that perfect, they get shit. I see why they are reluctant to do it. And to be honest, i wouldn't do it either.

people always say this

but so what? they might actually LEARN something

[quote/]Also, you guys what to have more female protagonists? well then , buy the games with female protagonists, actions speak louder than words.

all those AAA games with female protagonists....oh wait[/quote]

And here's the problem. Everyone's focused on what the AAA games are doing and what they're not doing. What we need to be focusing on is supporting games that do what we want, and that means all games, from AAA to small time indie. The big guy's aren't going to change overnight, because big things slow and set in their ways. What we need to do to promote change is to support the little guys who are trying to do new things, so that maybe they'll become like the big guys too.

 

[Vault101]

Except that. They create work, people cry that there's no enough females. They add females, they say they aren't good enough. It's a a lose/lose. We are talking about millions and millions of dollars here. Investments, and the risk isn't worth it. Unjustified hate is what it is.

who is "they"? because "they" do and always will exist..."they" are not one giant hivmind because people have different opnions

some people prbably had issues with Lara Croft, some loved Lara Croft..and thats fine, thease things don't exist to fill an ideology, they are entertainment first and foremost

but people will have opinions and you can't change that, again its a cop-out and thease criticism are no less Vailid that framerates or story

[quote/]I think that the reason they stick to making guys, is because no one cares. No matter how you right him, no one bats an eye.If a guy does anything no one gives it shit. But if it's a girl, people care too much. Whatever the girl does goes under observation because people care to much. As if the girl represents somehong more than a guy character.[/quote]
I belive a misconstrued idea of what will and won't sell plays its part (just look at aiden peirce...he is NOT a product of somone actually trying) alongside people sticking to what they know

we simply need more female protagonists so it doesn't have to become such a big deal each time...I'm not saying be thankful for everythin pathetic or badly realised bone they throw us...but creators shouldn't be scared of publihers OR their audience, and I think the publishers are the bigger problem...again not even in terms of gender in terms of fucking everything

[quote/]Let's take this to the exteme. If devs decided to stop making male characters. All women , all the time . You know what. I'd still be playing games, and i'd bet my right testicle, that most people would still play games too. Because ultimately it doesn't matter what gender the people you are playing as , as long as the game if fun.

I think this whole thing is blown way out of perportion, and people are just looking for things to complain about at this point. If you are playing a game because of what a character has between their legs, you're doing it very, very wrong.[/quote]

not wanting to make assumptions but I hear this a lot from guys...

wanting to be represented is not a crime, and wanting to NOT be spoon fed the "its too hard" bullshit certainly isn't eather

 

[Vault101]

[snip)

if we take out the indies (not that indies aren't cool but they aren't as restricted in their veiw as more mainstream games)

and if we take out games where playing as a female is optional

then what your left with are very few games where you play as a female non-optional pre set charachter

now I'm not being "ungratful" in pointing this out, some games strength is giving you options...others lie in having focus, and I don't NOT play a lot of games because they don't tick my boxes (with some exceptions....Watch_Dogs makes me want to dry wretch)

it just shows that women are under represented in mainstream games, thats a thing I think sucks and I can belive that while enjoying playing games...I don't need to be "satisfyed" with say....the only female protagonist in the AC series getting relegated to a handheld, oh I think its cool that the game exists and the setting looks hell cool... but I'm not gonna be falling to me knees and kissing Ubisofts feet cause I think they can do better

and thatd ok..I'm allowed to be critical of things...that doesn't mean I can't enjoy them

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

[snip)

if we take out the indies (not that indies aren't cool but they aren't as restricted in their veiw as more mainstream games)

and if we take out games where playing as a female is optional

then what your left with are very few games where you play as a female non-optional pre set charachter

now I'm not being "ungratful" in pointing this out, some games strength is giving you options...others lie in having focus, and I don't NOT play a lot of games because they don't tick my boxes (with some exceptions....Watch_Dogs makes me want to dry wretch)

it just shows that women are under represented in mainstream games, thats a thing I think sucks and I can belive that while enjoying playing games...I don't need to be "satisfyed" with say....the only female protagonist in the AC series getting relegated to a handheld, oh I think its cool that the game exists and the setting looks hell cool... but I'm not gonna be falling to me knees and kissing Ubisofts feet cause I think they can do better

and thatd ok..I'm allowed to be critical of things...that doesn't mean I can't enjoy them

I don't get how indie games are any less than AAA games to not count as examples. Both invlolve a team of people making a game. The difference being scale, budget, and who is backing them. Hell ,even many indies sell just as many copies as some AAA games.

And I don't get it. Most games released today allow you to customize your character ( as in make him male or female), or choose from a set of chaarcters ( Which are ususally female). I don't get why you narrowed down the list.

I get it that more games star men than women, but it's definitely like we don't get a female protagonsit/ play as a female once in a blue moon on the night of the summer solstice when all the planets align or something. Playable female characters are pretty regular.

 

[1066]

It doesn't work that way. These people spend years of blood sweat and tears. Then get shat on because they missed up that person with a vagina. And potentially lose money. Yeah, not worth it.

then they are in the wrong buisness...

its funny how people will get angry and even volitile towards developers (see Bioware) but as soon as its in regards to a female issue its all Sympathy...

hoesntly have you ever criticsed a work to the point where you used words like "fucking" or "bullshit"? many of us have

when you create a thing and send it out into the world it is open to criticism, thats a fact of life and it is the right of the audience to critue art, its a FUNDAMENTAL part of art, you can and will get criticied for EVERYTHING

now as a creator what criticism you take on board or dismiss is based on a number of things, weather the crtiic has good points, weather they understand your work or missed something, your own values, how open you are to criticism

ultimatly [b/]what you decide to take on board or discard is up to YOU first and foremost[/b] Ubisoft can take the recent outcry and act on it, justify it...or do nothing, this is not the same as rape or violence threats eather

I wrote a story that had a trans person charachter ,no ones read it obviously as its in my notebook, but lets say it had an audience and somone had issues with my portraly of Trans people, not being a Trans person myself and not knowing any I should be open to what they say, I don't HAVE to agree with everything but if they have a point I can't refute then I'd change it...because then I LEANRED something and as I creator I'd be better for it...but aparently thats an awful thing for the poor developers

Here's the difference: your story cost you... precisely nothing to create.

Time, effort and maybe even soul, yes, but no billable hours and you did it because why not?

Triple A games have budgets as much as into nine digits. Flops can, will and do sink companies for both reasons of return on investment and reputation.

For better or for worse, all those high and mighty concepts about art are secondary to the business aspect. If you're the guy at the helm of a massive pile of crap because you opted to do something that flopped hard and your only excuse is 'well, I thought I might learn something from the experience..." then you're not better for it, your career is now over and no company will touch you with a ten foot pole.

Try a thought experiment: Consider giving your story to fifty people who are trans. Have a contract ahead of time that, if 25% or more of those people give it a negative rating, for whatever reason and you are not allowed to discuss the work with them in any way, that you will sell every object you own and give away all proceeds and your entire bank account (including maxing out all your credit cards) to charity. Then quit your job by punching your boss in the face, ensuring you're unemployable.

When you have the confidence in your work to do make that contract, then come talk to people about artistic integrity in the business world.

 

[Vault101]

I don't get how indie games are any less than AAA games to not count as examples. Both invlolve a team of people making a game. The difference being scale, budget, and who is backing them. Hell ,even many indies sell just as many copies as some AAA games.

And I don't get it. Most games released today allow you to customize your character ( as in make him male or female), or choose from a set of chaarcters ( Which are ususally female). I don't get why you narrowed down the list.

I get it that more games star men than women, but it's definitely like we don't get a female protagonsit/ play as a female once in a blue moon on the night of the summer solstice when all the planets align or something. Playable female characters are pretty regular.

because my issue isn't with indies, and my issue isn't with games that give you the OPTION

I'm talking about mainstream games with non-optional female player charachters, there aren't many of them, for various reasons (some worse than others) and I think that sucks

the existance of indies or games that give you the option are great (especially the latter) but again they don't cancel out the issue I have,

that issue being the industry not wanting to put a female in a game unless she's a side charachter or optional, which quite frankly is begining to make Hollywood look progressive

and if youre making Hollywood look better than you your doing it wrong

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

Just... let people make the game they wanna make. If someone feels like their story should have a male protagonist, then let them go. I rather them have four male characters than for them to shoehorn in a female character just for the sake of having a female character. It's like when people complain about too much white characters and want an ethnic one. It simply feels like they want an ethnic character simply for the sake of it rather than if or if not it'll work with the story/setting.

 

[Vault101]

Here's the difference: your story cost you... precisely nothing to create.

Time, effort and maybe even soul, yes, but no billable hours and you did it because why not?

Triple A games have budgets as much as into nine digits. Flops can, will and do sink companies for both reasons of return on investment and reputation.

people on tumblr don't have that kind of power...

criticism of this kind and sales do not always reflect each other....AC:Unity is going to sell...its a big mainstream cash cow...the amount of sales it loses to people on grounds of the female issue will probably be inconsequntial...now the amount Ubisoft loses due to the bullshit theyve been pulling with their PC crowd might be more...but thats their fault

Watch_Dogs had a protagonost and story comparable to soggy bread...yet it didn;t flop

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

I don't get how indie games are any less than AAA games to not count as examples. Both invlolve a team of people making a game. The difference being scale, budget, and who is backing them. Hell ,even many indies sell just as many copies as some AAA games.

And I don't get it. Most games released today allow you to customize your character ( as in make him male or female), or choose from a set of chaarcters ( Which are ususally female). I don't get why you narrowed down the list.

I get it that more games star men than women, but it's definitely like we don't get a female protagonist/ play as a female once in a blue moon on the night of the summer solstice when all the planets align or something. Playable female characters are pretty regular.

because my issue isn't with indies, and my issue isn't with games that give you the OPTION

I'm talking about mainstream games with non-optional female player charachters, there aren't many of them, for various reasons (some worse than others) and I think that sucks

the existance of indies or games that give you the option are great (especially the latter) but again they don't cancel out the issue I have,

that issue being the industry not wanting to put a female in a game unless she's a side charachter or optional, which quite frankly is begining to make Hollywood look progressive

and if youre making Hollywood look better than you your doing it wrong

Eh, most games nowadays have protagonist that are customizable, and lately it seems they greatly outnumber games with set protagonist.

And addition, what if the game is about a set of characters or a roster of characters, such as in fighting games, many rpgs? Games don't have to be about one person.


i mean what are some games people are/were looking forward too? Destiny? Wildstar? Titanfall? Everquest? Dragon Age Inquisition?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

]Just... let people make the game they wanna make. If someone feels like their story should have a male protagonist, then let them go. I rather them have four male characters than for them to shoehorn in a female character just for the sake of having a female character. It's like when people complain about too much white characters and want an ethnic one. It simply feels like they want an ethnic character simply for the sake of it rather than if or if not it'll work with the story/setting.

Yeah, but in this case, the Developers wanted to include female characters but were not allowed to. This isn't the first time it happened, either. Heck, it's happened in Farcry 4, too. This wont be the last times it happens.

Complaining that the people wanting diversity are going to stifle developers is one thing, but what about when a developer wants diversity, and is getting stifled?

The idea of "Developer freedom," an idea I support, mind you, is a double edged sword. People that just defend the idea when people are calling for more diversity, well, the act doesn't sit well with me.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

]Just... let people make the game they wanna make. If someone feels like their story should have a male protagonist, then let them go. I rather them have four male characters than for them to shoehorn in a female character just for the sake of having a female character. It's like when people complain about too much white characters and want an ethnic one. It simply feels like they want an ethnic character simply for the sake of it rather than if or if not it'll work with the story/setting.

Yeah, but in this case, the Developers wanted to include female characters but were not allowed to. This isn't the first time it happened, either. Heck, it's happened in Farcry 4, too. This wont be the last times it happens.

Complaining that the people wanting diversity are going to stifle developers is one thing, but what about when a developer wants diversity, and is getting stifled?

The idea of "Developer freedom," an idea I support, mind you, is a double edged sword. People that just defend the idea when people are calling for more diversity, well, the act doesn't sit well with me.

Alright, I admit I didn't look into this situation much. I'm mostly speaking about other cases I see when this usually happens. In the end I just want a good game, so seeing people complain and being up in arms about stuff like that kinda irritates me.

 

[Eve Charm]

"Human" female characters that aren't customizable are a ticking time bomb, and any cred gained can easily be thrown out the window because things like "Oh my god Samus in high heels" Or " Look at her jiggle omg they are trying to be the sexy" And the counter is a male character can look like he was dropped on the head a couple dozen time and no one bats an eyelash.

The Hard truth is, if sole female protagonists can't strive in the Niche market then it's never going to make it to Mainstream AAA. It's what it basically is at this point a Niche market, Hell non white male protagonists deserve a genre of gaming at this point. Like any other Genre if it can't hit it at least decently small scale with minimal marketing it doesn't deserve the Spot light of AAA. Horror is making a come back thanks to doing good in Niche pc markets, Jrpgs aren't going away even if they sometime fail big time due to little ones still making dents like bravely default and so on.

You want to see female protagonists succeed? First lower your standards, There are tons of male protagonists, and Zero perfect ones, so stop demanding a perfect female one, it doesn't exist. Second, stop whining about marketing, A game that is catering to an audience that doesn't get catered to very often, doesn't need an AAA marketing campaign to get noticed. If the market exists that wants it they'll look for it, or hear about it from others looking for it. Demon souls didn't get big in a day, but look how big it got. Third stop whining that a character is catering to men, Get over it, it's digital T&A and I doubt it's only catering to just the males lol, but really ya they are the other 50% of gamers, some pandering still is to be expected

Last, SUPPORT WHATS OUT THEIR ALREADY. I can't believe how many people are up in arms about No female assassin in unity, but haven't played Liberation?!?! Even when they went out of their way to make an HD version on current consoles. And if you have a PS3 pick up Drakengard 3, Zero is probably my favorite female character in video games in existence at this point and not just at the protagonist role. I you want a Strong, Bad ass, trash talking, dominating female protagonist that doesn't take shit from anyone this is that in spades.