The real significance of female protagonists

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Erttheking

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Schadrach said:
Either way the point stands. They're phoning it in and people are irritated.

Oh no, I can find them, it's just that the partly few that I can find are still in the massive minority. I own quite a few games with female main characters including Walking Dead, Tomb Raider, Little Dew, Defender's Quest, the Portals and Giana sisters twisted dreams (Still waiting for the mac port for that last one so I can actually play it though), but for every game I have with a female main character I'm pretty sure I have ten with male main characters. The ratio is massively unbalanced and if you want a female main character, your pickings are limited. Either that or you have to play a game with a customizable main character, which I own and like plenty of, but it doesn't really feel the same as having an established female main character. (My bad for misunderstanding)

I'm not claiming that there's a magic number, but people are a lot less likely to buy a game that they've never heard of before or a game that they haven't been exposed to. Games with bloated marketing are a problem, but the marketing does help them, it's just that the marketing doesn't help as much as the devs were expecting because they thought it would help sell 5 million units. Take Rainbow Six the Siege for example. I didn't know anything about Rainbow Six before watching this year's E3, but now that I've seen the gameplay and I really want the game. If I hadn't seen that and just heard the name, I would've been bored by the concept and walked away. Advertisements can grab people's interest and get them to check out the game. Yes advertisement doesn't ensure a game will sell or not sell, but it does nothing to hurt a game's chances and can stand to help it. Look up Jim Sterling's Konami video for a good example of how a lack of advertisement can hurt a game's chances, considering Konami was selling games without even announcing that they existed.

Not all, but I can't help but notice that quite a few of them didn't seem to have much effort put into them or were just unstable. Liberation being a Vita only game until recently and I haven't heard good things about Mirror's Edge considering that the controls are apparently sticky and first person platforming is a pain in the ass. That is to say either they get shoved to the side or are the results of unstable experimental design.

True, but I feel like anti-chamber got a much better shake than Remember me considering that more people simply knew about it. Let's compare. The anti-chamber launch trailer have 700,000 views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsnm2nOnso

Remember Me's launch trailer had less than 200,000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6T2RZLynt0

Anti-chamber may have been a niche game and that probably turned off a lot of people from buying it, but people clearly new that it existed, whereas not so many people seemed to be aware of Remember Me, which is why Antichamber did so well despite being a niche game and Remember Me so poorly even though it was a more high budget one. This is why I argue that advertisement needs to be a factor. Not overblown budgets like AAA games, but enough to let people know that the game is out there and its strong points. And I'm not even sure that Remember Me had a modest advertisement budget because I recall seeing one or two banner ads for it and that was it.

Even if you take out main customizable characters there's still a massive majority. Yeah, a lot of them are silent protagonists but they're still establishes as male. And for the record I'm mainly criticizing the AAA industry here.
 

JediMB

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SUPA FRANKY said:
There are plenty of games with female protagonist or games where you can play as females. I agree, not as many as males, but when people act like 99% of games are about males it irks me.
Are you sure people aren't acting like 85% of video game protagonists are male? Because that's actually the state of the medium.
 

Pogilrup

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JediMB said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
There are plenty of games with female protagonist or games where you can play as females. I agree, not as many as males, but when people act like 99% of games are about males it irks me.
Are you sure people aren't acting like 85% of video game protagonists are male? Because that's actually the state of the medium.
Also we need flagships/vanguards/trailblazers.

We want more AAA properties centered around a female main character, and ones that hopefully would avoid the mistakes of "traumatic past" and "daddy issues".

IMO a good place to experiment would be to take the "no fucks given" parts of Duke Nukem's character and transplant that into a female main character of a new IP.
 

Schadrach

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erttheking said:
Schadrach said:
Side Note: Current Steam Community Sale voting options are "Casual - Puzzle" vs "Platformer - Female Protagonist." Since there is such a *huge* market that wants to see more female protagonists in games but can't seem to be bothered to actually buy the ones that exist, maybe they'll see it as worth at least clicking a button to support their position.

I did, but that has more to do with owning 3/4 of the "Casual - Puzzle" titles and $5 Tomb Raider sounding too good to pass up.
I either already own those games or they are on a platform that I can't play (Fucking mac). So what do you suggest that I do now? Also you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about people.
If there's a huge market for those kinds of games, and given the massive sales spikes we've seen in some titles when they become Daily, Flash, or Community sales (and thus get as cheap as they're going to get), if "has a female protagonist" is so central to some people shouldn't they spike way up there as well? I suspect Tomb Raider will at least, but that's because $5 for it is hard to pass up. Pixel Piracy jumped into the top 8 on Steam's Top Sellers for example, and was still in top 10 at time of writing (and we all know about it's massive marketing budget and large scale popularity compared to an unheard of title like Tomb Raider or Mirror's Edge, amirite?).

As far as sales trends go, you personally are a drop in a flood. Also, use Boot Camp and have an affair with windows on the side. Don't even give it that much space -- just enough for a few games you want to play that you can't because OSX. I've heard it works wonders and would do so myself, but my only Mac is a second hand MacBook that my desktop PC has about an order of magnitude better hardware than.

They won the vote, BTW.

New vote is "Pixel Graphics - Hardcore" vs "Story Rich - Female Protagonist." Same bit applies, except that I'm pretty sure that the games in the latter pack are sufficiently popular enough that half of them are already as saturated as they're likely to get. If it wins, anyone who doesn't grab the Walking Dead, Season 2 needs to be shot though.
 

Erttheking

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Schadrach said:
Look, I think I owe you an apology. I've kinda been jumping to conclusions, I'm a little stressed out because I have a lot on my plate right now with work and friends. You make a lot of good points and I'm sorry.

Also I've gotten advice from a friend that it'd just be more convenient if I waited for this computer to die and bought a PC laptop.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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JediMB said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
There are plenty of games with female protagonist or games where you can play as females. I agree, not as many as males, but when people act like 99% of games are about males it irks me.
Are you sure people aren't acting like 85% of video game protagonists are male? Because that's actually the state of the medium.
EH, I can think of plenty of games with female protagonist, or games where you can play as a female.
 

JediMB

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SUPA FRANKY said:
JediMB said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
There are plenty of games with female protagonist or games where you can play as females. I agree, not as many as males, but when people act like 99% of games are about males it irks me.
Are you sure people aren't acting like 85% of video game protagonists are male? Because that's actually the state of the medium.
EH, I can think of plenty of games with female protagonist, or games where you can play as a female.
But for every female protagonist, there are 5.67 male protagonists.

And there are actually more non-human protagonists than human female protagonists.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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JediMB said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
JediMB said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
There are plenty of games with female protagonist or games where you can play as females. I agree, not as many as males, but when people act like 99% of games are about males it irks me.
Are you sure people aren't acting like 85% of video game protagonists are male? Because that's actually the state of the medium.
EH, I can think of plenty of games with female protagonist, or games where you can play as a female.
But for every female protagonist, there are 5.67 male protagonists.

And there are actually more non-human protagonists than human female protagonists.
I don't think the ratio is that high. I'd say for every female theres maybe 2-to-3 males.

It's not like Ubisoft, Activision, and EA are the only people who make games ever.
 

JediMB

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SUPA FRANKY said:
JediMB said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
JediMB said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
There are plenty of games with female protagonist or games where you can play as females. I agree, not as many as males, but when people act like 99% of games are about males it irks me.
Are you sure people aren't acting like 85% of video game protagonists are male? Because that's actually the state of the medium.
EH, I can think of plenty of games with female protagonist, or games where you can play as a female.
But for every female protagonist, there are 5.67 male protagonists.

And there are actually more non-human protagonists than human female protagonists.
I don't think the ratio is that high. I'd say for every female theres maybe 2-to-3 males.

It's not like Ubisoft, Activision, and EA are the only people who make games ever.
You can think what you want, but those are the actual statistics shown by an academic study made in 2010, and the market hasn't changed significantly since then. I'm not just pulling these numbers out of my ass.

Welcome to the patriarchy where male is the default and characters are mostly made female if the non-maleness can serve some sort of purpose.
 

PainInTheAssInternet

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JediMB said:
Welcome to the patriarchy where male is the default and characters are mostly made female if the non-maleness can serve some sort of purpose.
That's not even an exaggeration. There was a fellow a few months back that fiercely defended the notion that anyone not male or white has to have a purpose and their character has to revolve around their non-male-white-ness. It was a rather infuriating discussion to read.
 

Therumancer

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Matthew Jabour said:
So Ubisoft had another controversy recently, this time about how their video game protagonists being all men and their lame-ass excuse shortly after. This prompted the usual backlash, followed by the usual counter-backlash about how there didn't need to be any female protagonists in that game in the first place. You can almost set your watch to these tides of opinions.

But I feel an important detail was missing from the debates, an absent point that needed to be made; this particular game did not actively need a woman as a protagonist, but the games industry, as a whole, would be better off for it.

You see, as with any industry in its infancy, video games have an image problem. Even beyond the Fox News featherbrains, many see video games as an industry for teenage males, a concept that physically manifests itself with developers making games only for that same demographic. As a result, the main characters of many games are white men, with companies having to fight uphill to put out the odd exception, such as Remember Me.

Now, when four player co-op is present, the game would probably function fine with any assortment of male and female characters, but most developers usually put in at least one girl, being free to do so because the main character rule no longer applies and suggesting that the developer is savvy to the fact that women do, in fact, exist. Ubisoft, however, has just suggested the opposite: that the number of women who play games is so low, it isn't worth shelling out to make a new character model. While the inclusion of a female character would not automatically improve the game, exclusion of any female characters whatsoever clearly makes a statement, the same kind of statement the Tea Party periodically puts out when they feel they haven't alienated enough people yet. And since Ubisoft, one of the new biggest software companies out there, is making this statement, it puts the whole industry in a bad light. To put it another way, you certainly COULD wear a tie-die tshirt to a company meeting, but don't be surprised if they deny you that raise you wanted.

So put on a tie, Ubisoft! Do you really want to let Nintendo outshine you in the PR field?

People need to understand, it's not just shelling out for a new character model, though that in of itself is expensive when animated to the point of a main character. It's ensuring the entire game works with that model. Look at it this way, when you play any of the games and go running across rooftops or whatever, notice how much time you spend just barely making jumps, and moving from carefully positioned climb point to carefully positioned climb point. You change the model even a little and all of a sudden you now need to test and re-design every one of those elements of the game. If say Edward in "Black Flag" was a head shorter, all of a sudden a lot of his jumping animations and climbing animations wouldn't work, with his hands gripping space away from where he's supposed to hit. To make it so all of these points work with very different models, and different styles of animation, means positioning them just right.

Basically what the outcry against Ubisoft amounts to is "hey, it's wrong to not have a playable female character, so you need to re-do your entire game from scratch".

That said, there are also the historical aspects to consider. Sure, there WERE women involved in The French Revolution, and even a couple of famous examples, but the reason why they are famous is because they were women and stood out as the most notable of the time. If you had some girl running around swashbuckling with dudes, parkouring up the side of castles, and whatever else, it would have been really noteworthy, it's not something people would likely have forgotten about, especially if the idea is to have the characters get involved in the breadth of notable events from the period.

Ubisoft already gave people a female protagonist, but in order to maintain the integrity of the series, also did it in a way where the character doesn't actually effect anything. After all it's debatable that "Aveline" exists, or at least existed the way things were presented as it's made clear "Liberation" is a propaganda piece about Assassins created by a bunch of Templars.

It's sort of like why despite a multiplayer skin, you don't have an option for a female pirate in "Black Flag", despite there being a few female pirates historically. The reason of course being specifically that those female pirates stood out for being women, and one such figure is a key NPC. Having an even cooler version when they are already doing a fantasy re-definition of what existed would have pretty much sent suspension of disbelief flying out the window.

See, part of it is that when your doing things historically, you have to understand how much things are going to stick out. The same reaction from the NPCs to see some dude jumping around the city, or cutting down a bunch of guys, isn't going to apply to a female character, especially if your going to expect her to somehow blend in afterwards (in this respect, being a propaganda piece justified how Aveline did things that shouldn't have been possible for her).

That said "Liberation" is due to get a sequel apparently as Ubisoft was happy with the sales, so there will be more AC spin off action with you controlling a lady. What's more if they ever decide to modernize things a bit more, you might see one in the core series, especially if they do a game in the 1920s or 1930s. Some might argue the 1890s, but at that point the women's lib thing wasn't in full swing, and there were women around who were famous just for being women who did stuff and stood out for that reason. Someone like Elizabeth Cochran (Nellie Bly) is pretty much why you can't have a female hero in the time period if your trying to be fairly historical, rather than an example of why you could have one.

The point here is that it seems that people are being unreasonable in their expectations of Ubisoft specifically because they did one spin off game, and now it's viewed as an entitlement.

I'll also say oddly enough, that their "Watch Dogs" franchise seems more likely to spawn a series of female protagonists given it's modern setting, and the fact that I haven't run into many people who like Aiden. Liberals who scream about "I hate having a white guy as a hero" are of course something that should be ignored as a matter of course, but the bottom line is his ethnicity has nothing to do with the fact that he's a badly written piece of cardboard who dresses like some loser about to try and hold up a liquor store. "Carla" is 10x more cyber-anarchist than he is from the look (alternative fashion sense with tats, etc..) than he is. When the best Ubisoft itself can really say about him is how he has an "Iconic" Baseball cap (I echo the "WTF" sentiments here, especially the implication that they can decide what's iconic... especially when it's just a bloody baseball cap) that should tell you something.... and while I'm rambling Ubisoft should also learn a bit about telescoping batons, by their nature they are not a thrusting device and pointing one like a sword or thrusting the tip tends to be pretty stupid (think about why here kids).
 

white_wolf

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Savo said:
Question for anyone who might know??has there been any kind of research into the number of female "hardcore" gamers? There is that often quoted statistic that women make up 50% of the gaming population, but I believe that research covered all kinds of games, including phone and mobile games, which makes that statistic misleading in a discussion of AAA games. Publishers need a tangible audience that will run out and buy and pre-order their lavishly budgeted games for $60 to justify making more female-led AAA games. I've looked for this information myself, but haven't had much luck, outside of a few vague and debatable statistics like the number of players who chose Femshep in Mass Effect.

I'd feel a lot better condemning or alternately supporting Ubisoft and other companies in situations like these if I knew for sure whether or not the hardcore video-game audience is as male-dominated as it often seems like.
There are many studies out there but they generally focus on children and educational games, there are a good few that focus on PC gaming like MMOs, there are fewer teen - adult studies, and I found one that talked about the whole family. Some studies show between children what game genres they prefer and a few for adults but not much.

Heres a study on recent consoles (360,ps3,ect) its the latest I could find: http://www.academia.edu/3304688/A_quantitative_study_exploring_the_difference_between_gaming_genre_preferences

Stats on game distribution between genders http://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/


Some other stats:

20% - 25% of known women are COD players (this doesn't include women signing up under male profiles)

A BW dev posted recently on a site I found were he commented there was an increase of femshep's player base from ME2 - ME3 that they considered it "worth it" to have her in the game. However the numbers I find on it that from BWs own website told us only Gold XBL users data was used (silver and no internet users weren't counted) during ME2 20% XBLG played as fem shep, in ME3 18% of XBLG members played her, however a popularity poll (for ME3) opened up to players on the BSN shows 27% play elusively as her while 25% play as her most of the time and play male some of the time, Another note out of 80%, 42% customized male shep so 38% of players customized femshep.

40% of XBL users are women (again known women)

15% known women play GTA

In 2005 a study on WOW race revealed 16% fem players and 85% male there was no difference in hours played. In 2008 there was an estimated 400,000 fem players and 675,713 male players played WoW.

I found a foreign study that had over 100 women partake that had 17 - 18% (generalizing right now) of women who liked violet games however the bulk liked non violence. What this study helps do is say for consoles anyhow make more games with alternative mechanics like Portal, war of the worlds, ect but also since there is a market for violet games (we've been playing these for years )you can keep those just also make it more appealing like adding good writing or plot, give customization to characters and environment not just guns and armor.

Women and men have talked at great length about how to have games appeal to both men and women that doesn't involve games becoming all SIMs or all FFX2 in both game themes, mechanics, graphics, character portrayal and body image, and level of violence exploding heads in the right game with the right context is fine just shoehorning it in for the cool doesn't work see TW3 right now is having fans question the use of its gore as its changed from TW2. To have games appeal to both is the best to help with that one of those things is to get women involved from concept, pitch, art direction, character look, script writing, character writing, testing, QA, and critiquing games prior to release the other is telling your marketing department to target both genders when they make ads, posters, press release info, ect and if you have women in that departments encourage them to speak up if something is too masculine or too feminine is that something a woman would say is that how she would say it? Last of Us did involve women in their game creation and it took off.
 

Vault101

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Nieroshai said:
Change your story now, I don't like what you did with it. It's my right as a consumer to demand this. I also hate that it didn't end like I thought it would. And your grammar isn't as good as the snippet you quoted. I don't care if this WAS your work, that you put time and money into; the fact that I don't like it means YOU have to change it. I don't care if I don't have to buy it, you must please me at all costs and I don't have the free will to vote with my cash!
1. this doesn't change my point

2. its ones right as a consumer to say "I think this sucks for x reasons"


[quote/] the internet has ruined gaming by turning nearly every member of the audience into an entitled prick who rambles how racist, sexist, and homophobic a studio is because of what they did not include in a game,.[/quote]
theyre only entitled pricks what its about THOSE things right? everything else is fair game?
 

SAMAS

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krazykidd said:
These people spend years of blood sweat and tears. Then get shat on because they missed up that person with a vagina. And potentially lose money. Yeah, not worth it.
This would be more justified, if they didn't keep messing it up in the exact same ways every time.

This ain't *bleep*ing Rocket Science, as the saying goes.

Therumancer said:
People need to understand, it's not just shelling out for a new character model, though that in of itself is expensive when animated to the point of a main character. It's ensuring the entire game works with that model. Look at it this way, when you play any of the games and go running across rooftops or whatever, notice how much time you spend just barely making jumps, and moving from carefully positioned climb point to carefully positioned climb point. You change the model even a little and all of a sudden you now need to test and re-design every one of those elements of the game. If say Edward in "Black Flag" was a head shorter, all of a sudden a lot of his jumping animations and climbing animations wouldn't work, with his hands gripping space away from where he's supposed to hit. To make it so all of these points work with very different models, and different styles of animation, means positioning them just right.

Basically what the outcry against Ubisoft amounts to is "hey, it's wrong to not have a playable female character, so you need to re-do your entire game from scratch".
Which is why games have never, ever, had more than one motion model for the protagonist in the entire history of 3D gaming.

Shut up Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

You too, Monster Hunter.

Get back behind that curtain, Street Fighter IV, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive, etc...

Hey Ninja Gaiden, ninjas are supposed to be silent and invisible! And you stay out of it, Tenchu!

Quiet, Super Smash Bros!

TLDR: Multiple motion models have been around as long as 3D animation has. Yes, it's a little more work, but it ain't impossible. Or even all that difficult. It's been done before.
 

Therumancer

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SAMAS said:
[

Which is why games have never, ever, had more than one motion model for the protagonist in the entire history of 3D gaming.

Shut up Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

You too, Monster Hunter.

Get back behind that curtain, Street Fighter IV, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive, etc...

Hey Ninja Gaiden, ninjas are supposed to be silent and invisible! And you stay out of it, Tenchu!

Quiet, Super Smash Bros!

TLDR: Multiple motion models have been around as long as 3D animation has. Yes, it's a little more work, but it ain't impossible. Or even all that difficult. It's been done before.
It's not just about the model though, it's about the interaction with the environment. Love them or hate them, one of the big things about Ubisoft's games is the amount of freedom they give you to run around the environment, climb, run up walls, jump across ledges, etc... the thing is that every bit of that environment needs to be compatible with each usable model and it's style of animation. The games your mentioning have a comparatively limited scope.

One of my go-to examples for this, and part of why I understand the problem, is because of MMOs. In MMOs you might literally have dozens of playable character models with all kinds of customization as opposed to height, weight, etc... but in these games they get away with it by having a very limited number of things the characters can do, especially when it comes to environmental interaction. This is why it's fairly rare to see MMOs where characters can sit in chairs (and it's a big question people ask about) for example, because that means that each type of chair has to be tested with all model variants. Most MMOs don't bother, and create very few items in the world you can interact with as a price for the number of potential models and such you can have. As I've pointed out a few times before also, the problem was illustrated with "The Old Republic Online" where during E3 Bioware's guys themselves pointed out a problem with getting the female models to mesh well with the vehicles due to height and positioning differences, a problem they arguably never solved as their fix is allegedly responsible for the horrible clipping problems the entire vehicle/mount system continues to suffer today which is jarring in an otherwise pretty well polished game.

Basically, I'll concede that it would be relatively simple to create a female model that could do the fighting stuff and probably interact with the other killable models, especially if there is a decent size variance among the possible enemies to begin with. However with the rest of Ubisoft's game it's a much bigger deal, because they would have to adjust the position of all the handholds, platforms, and other things to ensure it works with both models, and in a
game this saturated with interaction points that would be tantamount to re-developing the entire game. The model itself isn't really the problem, it's everything else that goes with it. As I've said, imagine for example that your playing "Black Flag" and Edward jumps for a platform, and makes it, but there is like 6" of space between his graphic and the edge because the model is shorter than the jump was designed for... that's the kind of problem your looking at. In a game like this having a girl whose say 5' 6" as opposed to 6' (six inches shorter) in proportionate scale is going to be enough to muck up everything in a game based around pinpoint measurements and environmental interactions.

Now yeah, they could go the MMO route and say "okay, we'll give you tons of models but you can't do anything but run around and do the same basic fighting animations based on your class", but that wouldn't be "Assassin's Creed" where the entire game is based around the sheer interactivity of the environment and the mobility it allows you.

People seem to mostly be complaining because of a feeling of entitlement stemming from how Ubisoft created a female character for "Liberation". Since they did it once, people feel Ubisoft is committed to presenting that option in all games. Ubisoft's answer was brief, but was not unreasonable, people argueing with it and talking about how cheap alternate models would be just do not get it (it goes beyond the cost of just a basic model), and frankly would not have been satisfied with any answer Ubisoft gave. For that matter, why does Ubisoft have to justify itself in the first place? If it doesn't want a female protagonist option, it doesn't HAVE to make one.
 

Pogilrup

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Therumancer said:
Ubisoft had a chance to prove that weren't going to repeat that one mistake with GTA V with its three protagonists, all of whom were male characters.

Sure that was single player and this is coop, but there was an opportunity in both cases to include a playable female character and unfortunately in both cases the developers wasted that opportunity.