The reason for a belief in ghosts
- Thread starter jboking
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It would justify arguments against an extreme. However, those that might have beliefs that don't coincide with the ones presented by the ghost hunters at the time(you can sense ghosts, talk to ghosts, be harmed by ghosts,Etc.) or those that have a different theory for their very existence have not been disproved.KillerMidget said:
- Apr 1, 2009
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what things caught on film that cant be explained? the most obvious one I can think of is the haunted car park that actualy made national news but its easy to fake that, anything caught on film can usualy be easily explained as either a fake or a weird catch of light, IE the so called spirit orbs that are really dust that is too close to the lense when the light catches itGodsOneMistake said:
I think the main problem that idea is the notion that strong emotion can have that kind of impact on our environment, even to imprint themselves on other dimensions. Emotions are not that powerful nor that important. Emotions are little more than electro-chemical reactions in the brain. We tend to overrate the value of emotions. We feel them strongly because we have evolved to feel them strongly, which is why we misjudge their import to the world at large.jboking said:
Fact is, emotions are irrational. It's just their nature. When in a dangerous situation, it is good to be cautious but we feel the emotion fear which can be detrimental in some cases, but we gained this emotion because fear of danger strongly and irrationally compels us to avoid danger. A man may find his wife attractive, but to say she's the most beautiful woman in the world is just absurd. Even if she is Angelina Jolie.
So this extreme emotional duress imprint idea is based on the idea that somehow out emotions, which are just chemical reactions and electrical impulses in out brains, are powerful enough to leave behind an energy or whatever artifact and even imprint this on another dimension. Forgive me if I find that hard to swallow. Ultimately I think it still falls under my previous response, wishful thinking. Which is, incidentally, a specific type of appeal to emotion.
Yeah, I find the idea a little laughable as well, but it is one that has been thrown around. People who support this notion typically stand behind the idea that we have no idea what it takes to make an imprint on another dimension.the antithesis said:
I quoted this separate because I find something incredibly odd about this statement. I think what you have done here is prove that emotions are essentially instincts. Also, I don't think there is a way to irrationally avoid danger...care to explain that?
I was probably overreaching a bit. Had I thought twice, I would probably have deleted that example. But, while it is reasonable to be cautious in danger and try to avoid it, the high-strung emotion of fear is not. We can feel fear with weak or no cause. Look at all the people suffering from anxiety. What are they afraid of? But ultimately that statement was probably a bad idea I should have discarded.jboking said:
One of the disturbingly common traits of people who believe so-called paranormal phenomenon, from ghosts to god, is that they "have no idea." I spend a bit more time on an atheist form and theists often come by to preach to us. It's a amusing though annoying. But a few are also regular posters who engage in actual discussion. The problem is that I only need to have another browser window open on the Wikipedia list of fallacies [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies] to formulate a rebuttal. Appeal to emotion, especially wishful thinking are the big ones, it seems. Because there has GOT to be something to these things despite a complete lack of supporting evidence. But its based solely on emotions. We think there MUST BE something to our feelings because they effect us so deeply, but the simple fact is, emotions lie. They are not based on external events but internal hormones and nervous reaction. External events may trigger them, but once triggered, the emotion self-perpetuates and often turns out to be baseless. We cannot trust them. Emotions lie.
I don't think anxiety much flows with the situation either. Most anxieties are either grown from negative experience or actually are a disorder (malfunction of the parabrachial nucleus), but I can see what you are getting at with your argument(even if I slightly disagree).the antithesis said:
The only reason to be religious that I have ever read that isn't just wishful thinking is Pascals Wager. Of course, most religious individuals wont use this theory because it "Stops you from truly believing." They say this almost as though they could use it to recruit people who see no logic behind religion. If I had to pick a religious theory to follow, it would probably be the watchmaker theory, as I truly see no divine intervention in the world today.
Edit:
P.S. Get an avatar, it adds some instant personality to your posts. Just nitpicking
Isn't it possible that they can feel the emotions of those around them, kind of the way you can tell if the person next to you is agitated, rather than feel the emotions of the long since dead?rdaleric said:
Best defense I've heard all thread.bernthalbob616 said:
I believe in ghosts because I do. It's my opinion. I have seen many strange things in my life that cannot be explained. Such an event happened on the day my brother hung himself. I was walking outside at night. I looked up and I saw a white image of my brother hanging from the exact branch in the exact way he was when we found him.
I have heard footsteps in the hallway when I was alone. I have seen a picture of my grandfather slide across the floor to my feet. I have seen an apparition laying in my bed. My bed was the same exact one my grandfather died in.
Those are only a few of the things that have happened to me. I would also like to direct your attention towards a certain video I have seen. I believe it to be real in all aspects.
Please divert your attention to 5:29 through 7:25. I am not sure that the events other than the two between 5:29 and 7:25 are real.
I have heard footsteps in the hallway when I was alone. I have seen a picture of my grandfather slide across the floor to my feet. I have seen an apparition laying in my bed. My bed was the same exact one my grandfather died in.
Those are only a few of the things that have happened to me. I would also like to direct your attention towards a certain video I have seen. I believe it to be real in all aspects.
Please divert your attention to 5:29 through 7:25. I am not sure that the events other than the two between 5:29 and 7:25 are real.
Perhaps phobias would have been better. i experienced it quite a bit this weekend when I drove to visit family and I am subject to acrophobia and driving over bridges make me nervous to the point that I have to focus to avoid panicking and having an accident.jboking said:
Actually Pascal's Wager is just the opposite of appeal to consequences: "a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument that concludes a premise is either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences for a particular party." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences] So once again, it's just appeal to emotion.
I used to subscribe to that until I learned that the very reason we think there is an immaterial or spiritual plain above of beside this material plain is baseless. It's is a product of the way our brains evolved. In this case, useful survival instincts are giving us a false impression about the world around us. Because the human brain is roughly the same the world over, this mistake is common. But the particulars of this belief evolved differently in different parts of the world. Hence all the different religions.
Of course this is reaching beyond your original topic of ghosts. But it all fits together since it all hinges on the mistaken belief in the spiritual plain, or whatever people prefer to call it.
Oh, well. I have avatars turned off so I can't see anyone's. It's just not that important to me. Although if I wanted to use an avatar, it might be Mr Gruff from Objective Ministries. [http://objectiveministries.org/kidz/] (You have to scroll down)
You can't get proof for ghost because even if you do no one will believe it or scientist will finally realize what they are making it not a ghost. I've had things happen to me that I can explain so I blame it on a ghost, what else do you call it when your playing with a dowsing chain and a Ouija board and the chain gets forcefully yanked out of your hand and nothing is there. I've also had my bed moved over a few inches while I was on it and it felt like someone was shoving it and no one was there, you could see the marks on the floor where the bed use to be.
Ghost are an explanation for the things we can't explain.
Ghost are an explanation for the things we can't explain.
Yes, I could see where you were coming from, it just didn't seeming like you were hitting on the proper example.the antithesis said:
Oddly, I've found that most common uses of pascal's wager are not to prove something exists, but prove that from a betting standpoint, betting on something and getting nothing is better than betting on nothing and getting something worse. It doesn't become appeal to emotion, it becomes a betting mans game.
Do you happen to have a source or could you expand on what it is in our minds that caused this? Or is it observation of different cultures over time and nothing more?
It's a caveat, and a decent one at that. Enjoying the conversation thoroughly, and I suppose that was the point of making a thread.
"Spiritual Safety Tip" Facepalm of the highest caliber.
and what exactly do you mean by that?Gormourn said:
You're completely right, these things are baseless and irrational. However, if you spend too much time staring into the dark abyss that is reality one of two things will happen:
1) You'll go insane.
2) You'll spend your life miserable.
So every now and again, it is healthy to indulge in something that clearly makes no sense, but is still fun and exciting to pretend about.
I suggest reading chapter 5 "The Roots of religion" in The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He gives somewhat better explanations than I.jboking said:
For my own part, I was thinking that the religion was part pareidolia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia] and part anthropomorphism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism]. Dawkins confirmed and expanded on what my own untrained mind was already working on. The most import concept, I think, is dualism as I mentioned above. Without dualism, I think that religion would have died out thousands of years ago. But that's just my guess.
I'm pretty sure that site is a parody. I doubt if a real christian site would sell this [http://www.cafepress.com/objectivemin.111704665] in their store. They might, but I doubt it.