The reason why open world gaming sucks.

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BloatedGuppy

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More Fun To Compute said:
I didn't say they were. I'm not sure that you have proved false equivalence here. The sort of argument I'm making is that group A might be the people who don't like the challenge of time limits and that group B might be people who think that every game should have a god mode because they don't like any challenge. And that both are part of group C which is people who I shouldn't offend because arguing for challenge that some people don't like in games is offensive. Group D, people posting in this thread, is not relevant in this case.
Agreed. This is a question of challenge.

I've long argued that our avatars in games should get tired, sick, and age. For example, if you take a gun shot, your character/game should be unavailable to you for 1-2 months of real time for recovery and physical rehabilitation. A sword cut should result in tetanus or possibly septicemia, the blades employed in most of these settings are filthy. Any serious wound or violent confrontation should have a chance of resulting in PTSD, which paralyzes your character during recurrences of these events. In addition you should have to eat, sleep and defecate in games, and your character should not respond to input commands during these times, leaving you vulnerable.

Some people may find these challenges extreme, but some people are pussies and like to complain. After all, challenges are NEVER at cross purposes with fun.
 

J.McMillen

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Sep 11, 2008
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OldDirtyCrusty said:
Some people here already posted the idea of time based questlines combined with the normal open world gameplay. I like this idea. Otherwise i prefer my free roam games without a timer. Dead Rising 2 was a game i really wanted to like but the concept of failing, restarting and leveling up on a ticking clock was not for me.
I agree, having some quests being time based can be a good thing. The pressure to complete the quest adds to the excitement. City of Heroes had a two part mission, the first was untimed but as soon as you finished it, you had 10 minutes to complete the second part. That's right, 10 minutes. I played this mission with several different character and it was one of the most exciting and nerve wracking missions every time. It was also one of the most satisfying too beat.
 

More Fun To Compute

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BloatedGuppy said:
Agreed. This is a question of challenge.

I've long argued that our avatars in games should get tired, sick, and age. For example, if you take a gun shot, your character/game should be unavailable to you for 1-2 months of real time for recovery and physical rehabilitation. A sword cut should result in tetanus or possibly septicemia, the blades employed in most of these settings are filthy. Any serious wound or violent confrontation should have a chance of resulting in PTSD, which paralyzes your character during recurrences of these events. In addition you should have to eat, sleep and defecate in games, and your character should not respond to input commands during these times, leaving you vulnerable.

Some people may find these challenges extreme, but some people are pussies and like to complain. After all, challenges are NEVER at cross purposes with fun.
You are like a bad version of Monty Python's argument clinic sketch.
 

snekadid

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More Fun To Compute said:
They should have time limits but people are pussies and complain. Things like time limits greatly enhance the feeling of engagement with worlds like this. The problem is that many people don't want to engage with the game and just want to fart around and have a laugh and it would take real effort to design for both. So we have cut scenes and quick time events to force people with low attention spans to engage. I blame the use of marijuana for this.
What are you talking about? Time limits do nothing but take you out of the game,ruining immersion and making you feel like you have a task to get done rather than a sense of something you have to do. Time limits are for time trials or singular events and should not be placed on the game world at large.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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More Fun To Compute said:
MiracleOfSound said:
Not on this thread, they don't.
I didn't say they were. I'm not sure that you have proved false equivalence here. The sort of argument I'm making is that group A might be the people who don't like the challenge of time limits and that group B might be people who think that every game should have a god mode because they don't like any challenge. And that both are part of group C which is people who I shouldn't offend because arguing for challenge that some people don't like in games is offensive. Group D, people posting in this thread, is not relevant in this case.
Strawmen, Strawmen everywhere! Enjoy your day, sir.
 

Loonyyy

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Considering the body of the text, your title is misleading. And I wish I had that picture of The Dude saying "That's just like, your opinion, man." Because that's what this boils down to. Yet another person trying to justify personal preference as objective fact. More accurate: "The reason I don't like open world gaming(Because I like urgent gogogogogo storytelling)"

As to your question, there are some open world games with time limits, but if you don't like that, I guess you can deal with it.

Open world games are enjoyable to some, and less to others, and if you're not finding them enjoyable: There's the metaphorical door. I hope it metaphorically hits you on the metaphorical way out.

Open world games tend to lose urgency. So what? Urgency only matters to plots which require urgency. Urgency is a crutch. Look at the campaigns of modern shooters. They've got faster and faster, more and more urgent, location hopping and running, never stopping to think. Piling hostage upon kidnapped VIP, upon Nuclear threat, upon butchered friend. That urgency is a crutch for poor writing. Raising the stakes mindlessly to maintain forward momentum.

Open world games work better when trying to set up an epic. Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, the Fallout series, tend to do this well. Rather than needing to run somewhere, you just need to do things. In fact, urgency in writing will also cost you player agency: you're inevitably being told to go here, do this etc. Which doesn't exactly do much for the "Main" character of a story.

Dead Rising is an interesting example (Referring specifically to the second, I haven't gotten to the first. Same principle). Of how not to do things. The urgency added by the ticking clock forces the player to complete the story, but the game also tries to play itself off as something fun, with inventive ways to kill zombies. So the player is split between fun gameplay, and the story. Which isn't a great place to be in, really. The game works better as the sandbox mode, or campaign, because for the story, you're managing several timers: Different groups of survivors, the stupid storyline, zombrex timers. Which is interesting in itself, but never really exploited. Rarely are you in possession of enough information to be forced to make difficult choices (You really have to have prior experience at the mission to know how long it takes to be able to make those decisions. So you either rescue everyone, or lose the game, you don't choose between groups of survivors deliberately, all that often), you just rescue pretty much everyone, and wait by the misssion objectives. The zombie slaughter with the custom weaponry typically takes place in sandbox mode, which does let the player have fun with the mechanics.

So the addition of timer centric stuff actively detracts from the fun of the sandbox. You get one or the other, and to me, the urgency or choices in a linear setting don't do as much for me as freedom.

Sandboxes make good exploration games, and make games more open, and generally more enjoyable, and allow greater amounts of content. If you like more linear progressions, that's fine, but I'm always going to prefer a good sandbox.
 

CleverCover

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Because no, time limits are the most horrible evil things a developer could put in an RPG designed for exploration. I don't even like the Elder Scrolls games and I understood that. I would have frothed at the mouth if there was a time limit in ME1. I know I have to hunt Saren, but I also want to jump off cliffs on the moon. DX Hated that mechanic in ME2 for the beginning missions.

You want to run around like a chicken without a head for a month and then play the story? Sure. Go ahead.
You want to run through the story feeling as if a wasted moment means the death of someone you know and love? You can do that too.

RPG's are games where you can do whatever the fuck you want. That's why people (I) love them and will continue to play them. If you want something more linear, there are games that cater to that need. Trade in your copy of Oblivion for something else.
 

More Fun To Compute

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MiracleOfSound said:
More Fun To Compute said:
MiracleOfSound said:
Not on this thread, they don't.
I didn't say they were. I'm not sure that you have proved false equivalence here. The sort of argument I'm making is that group A might be the people who don't like the challenge of time limits and that group B might be people who think that every game should have a god mode because they don't like any challenge. And that both are part of group C which is people who I shouldn't offend because arguing for challenge that some people don't like in games is offensive. Group D, people posting in this thread, is not relevant in this case.
Strawmen, Strawmen everywhere! Enjoy your day, sir.
I made a effort to explain my position logically and somehow that is a strawman of your position.

I'll have a bad day and there is nothing you can do to make it worse, thank you very much.
 

Loonyyy

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More Fun To Compute said:
MiracleOfSound said:
Not on this thread, they don't.
I didn't say they were. I'm not sure that you have proved false equivalence here. The sort of argument I'm making is that group A might be the people who don't like the challenge of time limits and that group B might be people who think that every game should have a god mode because they don't like any challenge. And that both are part of group C which is people who I shouldn't offend because arguing for challenge that some people don't like in games is offensive. Group D, people posting in this thread, is not relevant in this case.
He didn't bring up False Equivalence, so I'm not sure why you're evaluating his ability to prove it. He's correct to call your argument a Strawman, because you decided to condescendingly insinuate that he, and others, were arguing against challenge. Not at all.

They're arguing against a specific form of challenge, mainly because it isn't one that makes the game more difficult, it just adds in a specific challenge: Have fun and explore, or be able to complete the game. That's not a good challenge. You're liable to miss content whilst running over to the other content. You don't have to hate challenge to not want silly challenges. Although the underlying "More-Hardcore than though" sentiment is hilarious. You can make a difficult game, without putting in silly challenges, and not including those, doesn't make you somehow fearful of challenge (See Guppy's hilarious post).

Then, you use a non-sequitur and refer to the popularity of cheats and walkthroughs, and references to game journalists who like easy modes and such, as an argument against his position, which is entirely what he wasn't talking about, hence "Not in this thread.". Hooray for more Strawmanning!

It's amusing that you changed tack completely once called on it though. It takes a lot more effort to try using rational argument than condescension, and watching you try to categorise people into opinions that you could be talking about rather than the person you're addressing is just adorable. It's like a Straw-castle, filled with the straw men.
 

BloatedGuppy

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More Fun To Compute said:
I made a effort to explain my position logically and somehow that is a strawman of your position.
It's hard to explain your position logically when the position you assume upon entering the thread is that time limits are essential to creating tension and that people who don't enjoy said tension are "pussies" who just like to complain. That's a difficult position to establish, you know. Using logic.

I agree with you that removing time frames from games comes at the cost of tension, unless there is some heavy willing suspension of disbelief going on. This isn't unique to open world games, linear games are shackled to the same problem. It goes beyond just "I have all the time in the world to do this" though. If you can't suspend your disbelief that far, you're going to have a hard time suspending it in order to cover realities like being able to save and reload, or game the mechanics, or any of the other million conveniences that make games less irritating to play at the cost of ratcheting up the tension.

Now, you can establish tension and create the ILLUSION of a white knuckle time frame through good storytelling and use of music/pacing. There are a few games that do this well. Even an open world game could do this, although the experience of "being short on time" would be limited to a particular quest or mission.

What you haven't established is that time limits = challenge, as if A) the only reason someone might dislike a time limit is because they found it challenging (as opposed to annoying) and B) there are no other ways to challenge a player...either physically (twitch) or mentally (strategy)...other than strapping an arbitrary time limit onto their recreational activity. You certainly haven't established that people who dislike time limits are "pussies who like to complain", not that you ever could have established that to begin with. The easiest thing to do would have been to go back and remedy that original statement, instead of spending two pages willfully defending it while acting confused as to why people have assumed an argumentative tone with you.
 

More Fun To Compute

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I wish MiracleOfSound could just be left to speak for himself instead of having to listen to his greek chorus.

@Loonyyy; I used false equivalence to describe his use of what people are saying in this thread to dismiss my views on what people have said in the past about the subject. As in the only reason why I could see what people are saying here as being the limit is an argument based on false equivalence between his position and theirs. If you want to say that he is not arguing against challenge because "bad challenge" is not challenge at all then I don't agree. I'm saying that that where call is made is a personal thing. If it seems like I am changing tack halfway through and am "on the run" then please consider that I might actually just be trying to explain myself and that words that people put into my mouth or caricatures people paint of me might not be what I intend to argue for.

@BloatedGuppy; So just by using one word I completely disarmed your ability to think rationally? Get over it. Don't come at me your hilarious joker attitude to cover for the fact that you take small irrelevant things way too seriously. Time limits as challenge is basically adding a scarcity laying on top of the game. If you use the time is money metaphor then would you think it was acceptable to start every RPG with infinite money or infinite any other scarce resource? In terms of exploration time limits are important. If you were to seriously set about making a game that covered exploration themes then time would be important as would things like food and survival. Consider making a game about a shipwreck. You would have a limited time to salvage wreckage before it was lost, you would have limited to build shelter before bad weather, you would have a limited time to build a beacon before a plane passes by. Without time you just have a list of mundane busy work tasks with no consequence and no tense adventure story.
 

BloatedGuppy

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More Fun To Compute said:
@BloatedGuppy; So just by using one word I completely disarmed your ability to think rationally? Get over it. Don't come at me your hilarious joker attitude to cover for the fact that you take small irrelevant things way too seriously.
Sigh.

No, by assuming a ridiculous and indefensible position, you have disengaged my desire to take your thoughts on the subject particularly seriously. I'm not sure how you get "I take irrelevant things too seriously" when you were the individual who hand waved an enormous cross section of people as "pussies" because they disliked time limits in games. An idiom about people living in glass houses springs to mind. How does that one go again?

I'm aware of the perceived benefits of employing time limits in games, as I believe I made clear in my previous post on the subject. This is not a question of me failing to comprehend why you like time limits. This is a question of you failing to comprehend why people do not. Or at the very least, feigning a lack of comprehension in order to obstinately assume a position on the internet.
 

natster43

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I could see it working if it was either a core part of the game or just for certain missions and you were told before starting them, and that failure of this timeline doesn't just give you either a game over or an unwinnable game. If the time mechanic wasn't either of those, it would just be annoying. Dead Rising has a time limit system for the entire game, and personally it is my favorite game series. You can pretty much do everything you want within the time limit, especially in 2.
 

More Fun To Compute

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BloatedGuppy said:
More Fun To Compute said:
@BloatedGuppy; So just by using one word I completely disarmed your ability to think rationally? Get over it. Don't come at me your hilarious joker attitude to cover for the fact that you take small irrelevant things way too seriously.
Sigh.

No, by assuming a ridiculous and indefensible position, you have disengaged my desire to take your thoughts on the subject particularly seriously. I'm not sure how you get "I take irrelevant things too seriously" when you were the individual who hand waved an enormous cross section of people as "pussies" because they disliked time limits in games. An idiom about people living in glass houses springs to mind. How does that one go again?

I'm aware of the perceived benefits of employing time limits in games, as I believe I made clear in my previous post on the subject. This is not a question of me failing to comprehend why you like time limits. This is a question of you failing to comprehend why people do not. Or at the very least, feigning a lack of comprehension in order to obstinately assume a position on the internet.
Not really sure why you not taking my thoughts seriously should be such a huge "in your face" issue for me. There are plenty of people whose thoughts I do not take seriously but I don't really hound them so much.

What responsibility do I have for explaining why people don't like time limits? Not much at all really. I can empathise to a certain extent but not with the harsh absolutist position against the concept to the point of saying that it should never be used in a game because there are other challenges that can be put in games. You could use that same position for any challenge. Like, I think that anagrams should be completely removed from scrabble and replaced with maths puzzles because anagrams make me angry and I can't do them, so there is no excuse.
 

omicron1

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The ticking timer sounds like the antithesis of a good design idea - if it just leads to a Nonstandard Game Over.
However: if (say) something like Oblivion's Oblivion Gates were tied to a timer, and as time went on more and more demons covered the land (and, one assumes, towns fell and the path to stop them grew more and more desperate)... That would make for an interesting design. A "the longer you wait, the harder it gets" sort of thing.

This is hard to make content for. But it would be relatively trivial in a procedural game - think Din's Curse with a team of 500 rather than just one guy.
 

thejackyl

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It does break immersion a little bit, when the world is doomed unless you do something, and you can take 10 in game years to do it, it makes you doubt the severity of your mission.

Now, I think the change to the original Fallout's time limit (It's been like 8 years since I played it, and it won't run on my computer anymore) didn't the change not remove the time limit, but change the penalty. (Originally it was game over, after the patch mutants found the vault.)

Now, I'm not saying time limits are a good thing. It's the one thing that I absolutely HATE about the Dead Rising series. I like doing EVERYTHING, but when I only have time to do less than 50% it really ticks me off, and after I stop trying to do everything I'm stuck with waiting for a timer to count down before I can move the story.

I think the best way to do it would be to get rid of a time cycle, or at least don't keep track of how many in-game days you spent doing things, and do something like:

"Day" 1: Main quest and side quests a,b,c,d are open
"Day" 2: Starts when main quest in "day" one is finished. Opens up more of the main quest, closes side quests a,b and opens side quest e,f
"Day" 3: Continues like above pattern.

That way your time progression is based on the main quest. There's no real time limit, and you still feel the urgency on side-quests at least because if you advance the story too far, they fail.

It's how I think they should have done Dead Rising, but perhaps keep the time limit for Katie's Zombrex Vaccine (since that time limit made sense, and wasn't too punishing, and didn't end the game.)