The relationship between Batman and The Joker

[Alternative]

I also just finished reading The Killing Joke. It seems that some Batman writers like to portray the idea that Batman and the Joker are both crazy.With Batman channeling his insanity into a helpful pursuit. Where as the Joker revels in his insanity, which is why he'll never be "cured". He doesn't want to be cured.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

If you really want a great Batman / Joker read check out the Flashpoint: Batman story. It's an alternative take on the two but an AMAZING story! Probably my favorite read for all of last year.

That was an excellent story, no doubt. One of the best twists of all time. That said, really not applicable regarding this particular topic... just a fun read.

OT: The answer is that it depends on who's writing them, though I would say that on the whole Joker projects on to Batman a lot more meaning than Batman projects onto Joker. There are multiple points in Batman continuity in which Joker completely defines himself around Batman, because to Joker it's all a game, and without Batman there would be no game to play.

Batman, on the other hand, tends to just view Joker as an insane man. The reason he won't kill Joker isn't because he needs him to define himself, but because he follows a deontological system of morality (like Superman, Flash, and Green Lantern, and unlike Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and the current Robin, who are more utilitarian). Batman simply won't kill people, central to his character, since he decided not to kill the man who killed his parents, is a belief that human life is not to be taken but is to be preserved. It's an absolute rule, and even if the indirect action of his not killing the Joker is that more people die, he still has to save him because he can't be directly responsible for causing death.

EDIT: Now that I think about it though, there is one story which implies that Batman needs Joker. That would be Batman: Odyssey. But it's also worth noting that Odyssey probably isn't cannon and definitely isn't sane. Seriously, Batman: Odyssey is fruity loops with a side order of nuts and bananas.

I actually find this quite interesting, this idea is explored in Under the Red Hood as well

Spoiler

Near the end when jason confronts batman about Joker still being alive and tells batman to either kill him or the joker, he still refuses to kill him.

Yeah, it's a plot device that makes for a really interesting story. I've always felt the best version of the story though was in Superman: Sacrifice when...

Spoiler: spoilers for Superman: Sacrifice and some general DCU history

Maxwell Lord uses his psychic powers to control Superman and make him go on destructive rampages and attack his friends. The climax of the story comes after Wonder Woman manages to beat Supes into submission and tracks down Maxwell Lord. She uses the Lasso of Truth on Lord, and asks him if he'll ever stop taking control of Superman and using him to do horrible things. He says he won't (the lasso means he can't lie) and when Superman still refuses to kill him, Wonder Woman straight up breaks his neck.

Incidentally, Wonder Woman is a total badass and, to the best of my knowledge, is one of the only Justice Leaguers to have killed someone intentionally, the others being Aquaman (who is also way more of a badass than anyone gives him credit for) and John Stewart (the black Green Lantern... which is gonna get really confusing if the prophecy in the latest issue of Green Lantern comes to pass and Hal Jordan becomes a Black Lantern, meaning he'll also be a black green lantern).

 

[Fijiman]

I don't have much of an opinion on the subject, but I do believe that this is somewhat relevant.

 

[LetalisK]

I have a question that kinda references Batman. He's kinda known for not killing any of his enemies, but isn't that true of most heroes? I know there are the villains that can't be killed, but what heroes have no problem killing their enemies?

Punisher notwithstanding...

 

[Julianking93]

I have a question that kinda references Batman. He's kinda known for not killing any of his enemies, but isn't that true of most heroes? I know there are the villains that can't be killed, but what heroes have no problem killing their enemies?

Punisher notwithstanding...

Not many, really, though with Batman, it's shown to be a very strict moral code.

He'll go so far as to endangering or sacrificing himself rather than killing someone.
It's been explained already, but that's central to Batman's character and what separates him from the villains he faces.
The same can be said for really any superhero who abides by a similar morality but Batman's is possibly the most well known and recognised.

Now, as for other heroes who have no issue killing another, I can't really think of any except for certain members of the X-Men. And I think Wonder Woman killed a few people but I never read her comics much.

If anyone ever did, they're usually presented one of two ways, that I've seen. The first being that they fall closer to the antihero spectrum (see virtually every character from Watchmen, the newest Robin, the main protagonists of the Sin City books or Catwoman). And the second where it's presented as horribly traumatic for the hero in question.

Spider Man, for instance is rarely shown to kill someone but the few times I remember he did, a central plot point surrounding it is that he's left traumatised over the murder or, at the very least, regrets killing them.

Just my take.

 

[LetalisK]

I have a question that kinda references Batman. He's kinda known for not killing any of his enemies, but isn't that true of most heroes? I know there are the villains that can't be killed, but what heroes have no problem killing their enemies?

Punisher notwithstanding...

Not many, really, though with Batman, it's shown to be a very strict moral code.

He'll go so far as to endangering or sacrificing himself rather than killing someone.
It's been explained already, but that's central to Batman's character and what separates him from the villains he faces.
The same can be said for really any superhero who abides by a similar morality but Batman's is possibly the most well known and recognised.

Now, as for other heroes who have no issue killing another, I can't really think of any except for certain members of the X-Men. And I think Wonder Woman killed a few people but I never read her comics much.

If anyone ever did, they're usually presented one of two ways, that I've seen. The first being that they fall closer to the antihero spectrum (see virtually every character from Watchmen, the newest Robin, the main protagonists of the Sin City books or Catwoman). And the second where it's presented as horribly traumatic for the hero in question.

Spider Man, for instance is rarely shown to kill someone but the few times I remember he did, a central plot point surrounding it is that he's left traumatised over the murder or, at the very least, regrets killing them.

Just my take.

And I guess in the meta it makes sense that heroes don't kill the villains since it would be too taxing to come up with completely new villains all the time since you obviously can't reuse the other ones.

 

[JesterRaiin]

So I just finished the Killing Joke, and it got me thinking, how do Batman and the Joker really feel about eachother?

Well, the Joker recognizes Batman as his ultimate opposite.
Batman deals with tons of maniacs and villains and Joker is one of them. Top class, but ONLY one of them.
I believe Batman would do great without the Joker, but the opposite... i'm not so sure.

Also, it raises the question whether or not he is truly insane, or if he is just putting it all on.

It really comes down to understanding what "insanity" is. I think sometimes that the Joker is beyond madness.

And while at that - read Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns". Really. It answers the questions you're asking here now. Have fun, it's worth it.

 

[Sean Hollyman]

So I just finished the Killing Joke, and it got me thinking, how do Batman and the Joker really feel about eachother?

Well, the Joker recognizes Batman as his ultimate opposite.
Batman deals with tons of maniacs and villains and Joker is one of them. Top class, but ONLY one of them.
I believe Batman would do great without the Joker, but the opposite... i'm not so sure.

Also, it raises the question whether or not he is truly insane, or if he is just putting it all on.

It really comes down to understanding what "insanity" is. I think sometimes that the Joker is beyond madness.

And while at that - read Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns". Really. It answers the questions you're asking here now. Have fun, it's worth it.

Oh I have read it, I was actually quite shocked when he

Spoiler

broke his neck.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Batman and the Joker are pretty much polar opposites, and opposites attract. The Joker defines himself by the Batman (e.g. in The Dark Knight Returns, he comes out of his catatonia, coincidentally when Batman comes out of his retirement), and likes to play with pushing his boundaries, to see how far he?ll bend the rules, because to him, ?the only way to live is without rules?. That?s why he?s even willing to be killed by Batman, because it means that he would?ve proven himself right. If that isn?t psychopathic, I don?t know what is. The Joker is clearly batshit insane.

But what they have in common is that both of them are violent and psychologically unstable. Batman?s not as unstable as the Joker, but still unstable nonetheless. I think there have been numerous adaptations that argue that Batman?s actually bad for Gotham City, even though he strives to do so much good for it. But, at the end of the day, he is just an orphan who dresses up as a bat to take out his anger over his parents? deaths on the criminals that have plagued ?his city?. That?s another thing lending evidence towards the ?Batman?s actually insane? theory: he can?t stop being Batman. When he?s not Batman, he has a mental breakdown and becomes a recluse.

Talking of which, my mum?s going to get me Year One and The Killing Joke as a reward for passing my exams. Yay!