The Sad Truth About Global Warming

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

 

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

its not my country so maybe i shouldnt comment but, wasnt romania a soviet puppet state and just like any communist country at the time had a severe problem with human rights?

im by no means saying communism cant work (tough the fact it has almost never worked is worth mentioning...) the point i wanted to bring to the table is that we shouldnt make blanket statements, and if we want everyone to cooperate, every voice must be heard

but id like to address a few extra points:

"Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba."

this happened, back in the day, when this country was actually worth a damn, Venezuela used to be one of the most developed countries in the region during the 20th century, to this day some of the biggest archivements of those past government remains, the 3rd biggest electric dam in the world, the biggest steel corporation in the region, nowadays they are in shambles thanks to mismanagement and corruption

"Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America"

of course there is, propaganda, this government has repeated over and over again that "the Empire" invaded us, but do you want to know what was the only country that invaded us during the 20th century? Cuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machurucuto_Incident

they supported the communist guerillas that caused havoc in the country during the 60s, and the current leaders of Cuba are the same ones that supported these actions, the Castro brothers, and yet this government loves to act as if that never happened, filling the ranks of the army with Cubans

 

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

its not my country so maybe i shouldnt comment but, wasnt romania a soviet puppet state and just like any communist country at the time had a severe problem with human rights?

im by no means saying communism cant work (tough the fact it has almost never worked is worth mentioning...) the point i wanted to bring to the table is that we shouldnt make blanket statements, and if we want everyone to cooperate, every voice must be heard

but id like to address a few extra points:

"Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba."

this happened, back in the day, when this country was actually worth a damn, Venezuela used to be one of the most developed countries in the region during the 20th century, to this day some of the biggest archivements of those past government remains, the 3rd biggest electric dam in the world, the biggest steel corporation in the region, nowadays they are in shambles thanks to mismanagement and corruption

"Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America"

of course there is, propaganda, this government has repeated over and over again that "the Empire" invaded us, but do you want to know what was the only country that invaded us during the 20th century? Cuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machurucuto_Incident

they supported the communist guerillas that caused havoc in the country during the 60s, and the current leaders of Cuba are the same ones that supported these actions, the Castro brothers, and yet this government loves to act as if that never happened, filling the ranks of the army with Cubans

Soviet puppet state? Not really. Not after Ceausescu came to power. The Russians really hated Ceausescu, cause he was first a nationalist and then a Communist. But I do not want to argue Romanian history with a non-Romanian, it will just get me angry.

So you have only 1 example of a good capitalist system where the country didn't suffer. I have far more negative examples: Romania's economy, The Fukushima-Daichi power plant having a small counter for tsunamis, courtesy of TEPCO, the corruption of the Batista government in Cuba in the 1950s, the taking away of the manufacturing base from the West to China for profits since 1990s, the spill in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010 by BP. The economic downturn caused by the American banks and subsequent recession in 2008. And I am not even going to get into the shit they pulled during the 19th century and early 20th century, before laws forced them to offer proper pay and compensation. History clearly shows that companies are at best neutral, willing to offer the least in name of maximum profit. Companies need to be regulated heavily. Everybody with some knowledge of economic history knows that.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

snip

look we are getting sidetracked, this isnt a discussion of political systems, is painfully obvious we have our own stances

my point was, if we want people to work together, we must make sure none of them gets totally screwed over, it doesnt matter if you want corporations dead or not, if we want to reduce human pollution and its effects on global warning, we must work together, think of it as, when the east and west worked together to erradicate smallpox, it didnt matter if the country infected was capitalist or communist, both parties worked together to get rid of the disease, and everyone had a great time

lets try to do just that

 

[Haerthan]

snip

look we are getting sidetracked, this isnt a discussion of political systems, is painfully obvious we have our own stances

my point was, if we want people to work together, we must make sure none of them gets totally screwed over, it doesnt matter if you want corporations dead or not, if we want to reduce human pollution and its effects on global warning, we must work together, think of it as, when the east and west worked together to erradicate smallpox, it didnt matter if the country infected was capitalist or communist, both parties worked together to get rid of the disease, and everyone had a great time

lets try to do just that

Fair enough. I still believe that working together is a pipe dream though. Human greed is far too strong a force for us to get together and work on this specific issue. The eradication of smallpox was a lucky thing, a thing we won't ever see happen in our lifetimes.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

snip

look we are getting sidetracked, this isnt a discussion of political systems, is painfully obvious we have our own stances

my point was, if we want people to work together, we must make sure none of them gets totally screwed over, it doesnt matter if you want corporations dead or not, if we want to reduce human pollution and its effects on global warning, we must work together, think of it as, when the east and west worked together to erradicate smallpox, it didnt matter if the country infected was capitalist or communist, both parties worked together to get rid of the disease, and everyone had a great time

lets try to do just that

Fair enough. I still believe that working together is a pipe dream though. Human greed is far too strong a force for us to get together and work on this specific issue. The eradication of smallpox was a lucky thing, a thing we won't ever see happen in our lifetimes.

unlikely

we wouldnt have gotten this far as a species ignoring the benefits of jolly cooperation, thats why we stopped using CFCs once we discovered that shit was eating out our ozone layer

but there are still some issues to be resolved about climate change, some people are still not convinced of how much are humans to blame, and to be fair, climate change has happened before without humans intervening, and it was slowing down for no reason recently, now it seems this was thanks to volcanic activity

im all in for more research to be done, we should start by taking some meansures to reduce pollution because climate change or not thats generally a shit thing, and we save the most drastic meansures for when we have more data, tough im aware time is an important resourse and we shouldnt waste it

 

[Haerthan]

snip

look we are getting sidetracked, this isnt a discussion of political systems, is painfully obvious we have our own stances

my point was, if we want people to work together, we must make sure none of them gets totally screwed over, it doesnt matter if you want corporations dead or not, if we want to reduce human pollution and its effects on global warning, we must work together, think of it as, when the east and west worked together to erradicate smallpox, it didnt matter if the country infected was capitalist or communist, both parties worked together to get rid of the disease, and everyone had a great time

lets try to do just that

Fair enough. I still believe that working together is a pipe dream though. Human greed is far too strong a force for us to get together and work on this specific issue. The eradication of smallpox was a lucky thing, a thing we won't ever see happen in our lifetimes.

unlikely

we wouldnt have gotten this far as a species ignoring the benefits of jolly cooperation, thats why we stopped using CFCs once we discovered that shit was eating out our ozone layer

but there are still some issues to be resolved about climate change, some people are still not convinced of how much are humans to blame, and to be fair, climate change has happened before without humans intervening, and it was slowing down for no reason recently, now it seems this was thanks to volcanic activity

im all in for more research to be done, we should start by taking some meansures to reduce pollution because climate change or not thats generally a shit thing, and we save the most drastic meansures for when we have more data, tough im aware time is an important resourse and we shouldnt waste it

We have been at it for how long now? 40 years at least. The ecological movement got its start in the 1960s. It seems to me that we have to be RIGHT AT THE edge before we start doing anything. And the hole in the ozone layer is still there 30 years after CFCs were banned. Yes we need to measure it, yes we need to stop it. But I am afraid that it won't happen till it is too late. The stopping part I mean, the measurement part has been going on for decades now. I wish I had your optimism in this matter.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

We have been at it for how long now? 40 years at least. The ecological movement got its start in the 1960s. It seems to me that we have to be RIGHT AT THE edge before we start doing anything. And the hole in the ozone layer is still there 30 years after CFCs were banned. Yes we need to measure it, yes we need to stop it. But I am afraid that it won't happen till it is too late. The stopping part I mean, the measurement part has been going on for decades now. I wish I had your optimism in this matter.

the hole in the ozone layer is shirking, it will take some time but atleast the damage is being reverted

humanity has survived unmeansurable obstacles im fairly possitive we are moving towards being a society more conscious of their effect on the environment and taking steps to reduce it

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

Id like to see you move, say, Los Angeles. You do realize that over 80% of human population on this earth lives on coastlines that will go underwater with polar caps melting? While you may not feel it, there are towns in india already sinking and the inhabitants got nowhere to go. You live in one of the most sparsely populated countries, so you dont see problems of moving a billion people away.

Not to mention that this shift im temperature is already killing thousands of species that are not as adoptable as humans. we may be able to just move away, but it wont help of we starve once things stop growing.

Oh shit, humanity might have some real hardship to deal with after so many years of growing fat and spoiled that the fucking user interface of our android phones changing slightly pisses everyone off? The horror, I am not going to be upset if people cant live in LA any more. We, as a species are spoiled. I do not deny global warming, I just think maybe it wont be the worst thing ever for us.

We are so spoiled that apathy of our own government has become a huge problem, because we have everything we could want already.

Along the same vein.... I think it would be pretty terrible if we cured cancer and all sickness. For individual people sure it would be awesome, but on the larger global scale pretty fucking awful.

 

[Strazdas]

Id like to see you move, say, Los Angeles. You do realize that over 80% of human population on this earth lives on coastlines that will go underwater with polar caps melting? While you may not feel it, there are towns in india already sinking and the inhabitants got nowhere to go. You live in one of the most sparsely populated countries, so you dont see problems of moving a billion people away.

Not to mention that this shift im temperature is already killing thousands of species that are not as adoptable as humans. we may be able to just move away, but it wont help of we starve once things stop growing.

Oh shit, humanity might have some real hardship to deal with after so many years of growing fat and spoiled that the fucking user interface of our android phones changing slightly pisses everyone off? The horror, I am not going to be upset if people cant live in LA any more. We, as a species are spoiled. I do not deny global warming, I just think maybe it wont be the worst thing ever for us.

We are so spoiled that apathy of our own government has become a huge problem, because we have everything we could want already.

Along the same vein.... I think it would be pretty terrible if we cured cancer and all sickness. For individual people sure it would be awesome, but on the larger global scale pretty fucking awful.

I think you underestimate the effort it would take to move everyone from the flood zones.
here is a map where red = underwater after polar caps melting:

Spoiler: big image

As youll note, all the major cities will be under water.

we have spent our entire written history populating those.

Although you seem to be of the opinion that humans need to suffer so i guess that wont sway you.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

Id like to see you move, say, Los Angeles. You do realize that over 80% of human population on this earth lives on coastlines that will go underwater with polar caps melting? While you may not feel it, there are towns in india already sinking and the inhabitants got nowhere to go. You live in one of the most sparsely populated countries, so you dont see problems of moving a billion people away.

Not to mention that this shift im temperature is already killing thousands of species that are not as adoptable as humans. we may be able to just move away, but it wont help of we starve once things stop growing.

Oh shit, humanity might have some real hardship to deal with after so many years of growing fat and spoiled that the fucking user interface of our android phones changing slightly pisses everyone off? The horror, I am not going to be upset if people cant live in LA any more. We, as a species are spoiled. I do not deny global warming, I just think maybe it wont be the worst thing ever for us.

We are so spoiled that apathy of our own government has become a huge problem, because we have everything we could want already.

Along the same vein.... I think it would be pretty terrible if we cured cancer and all sickness. For individual people sure it would be awesome, but on the larger global scale pretty fucking awful.

I think you underestimate the effort it would take to move everyone from the flood zones.
here is a map where red = underwater after polar caps melting:

Spoiler: big image

As youll note, all the major cities will be under water.

we have spent our entire written history populating those.

Although you seem to be of the opinion that humans need to suffer so i guess that wont sway you.

Dude, you could randomly wipe out half the world's human population in a year and the species would be totally fine. Would it suck? For sure. Would it be the end of us? not even remotely close. Not to mention that this water level rising will be gradual, you do not need to move everyone at once. The modern age has been very disillusioning for us as a species. And yeah, suffering is part of the human condition, it drives us.

But I am the first to admit that I speak about this from a position of relative safety, see that little red line on your map on western canada? I live about there.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well, that article hit a little closer to home than I'd like.
I'm finishing up my Meteorology/Climatology degree this Spring, and it's been...interesting to see how science actually works in the public and private thus far.

To put it politely, the U.S. government has an incredibly bipolar relationship with the sciences.0

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/8q3nmm/burn-noticed
Relevant part: 3:30 onward
(I wanted to find the original congressional hearing, but Stewart's attitude here is shockingly on point, so, there you go)

To put it honestly, we have some incredibly crooked, ignorant, stupid, and anti-intellectual people in places of real power.

Which is to say nothing of the ignorance of everyday people, but as I've learned, part of my job is to try to find ways of bringing understanding without being preachy or pushy. And that's not easy, because most people (who aren't scientists) the attitude and approach to scientific subjects is quite different than it is to an actual scientist.

In my limited experience, I've come to understand that most people "learn" things once and then have a difficult time un-learning them, even when challenged with evidence to the contrary. Global Warming/Climate Change is a firestorm of a subject because scientists don't have as firm of a grasp on the subject.

We understand the POTENTIAL consequences better than the causes, and ongoing research takes a lot of time and effort to produce results, mainly because unlike other sciences, Met/Climate is a VERY YOUNG branch of physical science; we're barely a century into what could actually be called meteorological science (essentially pioneered by Bjerknes and Rosby), and Climatology is even younger than that.

In terms of scale, our raw data collection is WOEFULLY lacking.

The short version of this is: Our understanding of the subject is improving, but it's erratic and rapid.
Imagine having to unlearn and relearn things considered "proof" or "true" every other year due to new insights, methods and just general improvements to existing tech. Most people don't want to deal with the burden of relearning; all too often, it's one-and-done, even if what they learned turned out to be wrong.

It's kinda like how in the United States, during a tornado, some people on the road opt to hide under an overpass, despite literally decades of literature and announcements telling people not to. Why? Because once upon a time, the weather service (and others) actually suggested that as a safe place to hide. There's an old PSA video dedicated to it, in fact.
(It's part of our cultural memory, if that stupid ass scene in Man of Steel was any indication)

Good editorial.