The school system - what is it really about?

[Hawkseraph]

ATTENTION! WALL OF TEXT AHEAD.

Heya fellow escapists,

So in school we read the book "My Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn. In case you dont know, go check it out.. it's one of the most interesting reads I've ever had... and I love reading. The book won the one-time Turner tomorrow fellowship for "showing a way to solve the problems of our time" (or smth like that).
Now, school gets some attention in this book. I am not sure if I can deliver you with a good enough summary, since it relly builds off of the whole book. so, again, read the book

But I will try to do my best here and now. Basically, Quinn says that our society doesnt really work. He says, that to solve these problems, we should look at societies which DO work, and he means the tribal societies by that.
So, first we have to look at what we are told schools should accomplish. What is their purpose? Well, of course we have to learn "general knowledge", so we can decide on what job we could like... but honestly, most people already know what they like or dont like after what? Eight years? And honestly, if you do not know what you would like to do after those eight years, I really doubt school will help you with that (and really, I am in the same position... 13 years of school and still no idea).
And why the fuck are the test scores so low? Why do the children learn NOTHING? Should they not remember the stuff their teachers desperately try to tell them? Well, they just got no motivation. Tell me WHY I should know how vectors work.. or why my math-savy friends should know anything about the structure of cells? We will both forget these things right after the tests... So, why do we learn them? When in FACT we don't learn them, but forget them after a week. It has happened to me very often that I just walked out of an exam and could not remeber what it was about two days later. And the best is... I don't even care.
Think about it. Remeber those lessons when the teacher asked what you learned last year? We usually spend the whole lesson on it. And result? Well, we have certainly heard about th elegislation process... but.. umm... we do not really know anything about it, sorry.

Aww, I have not even touched the best evidence ever for the theories to come.
(Almost) Nobody likes school.
How many kids do you know that hate school? How many teachers complain about their job? Parents? Politicians? People who pay taxes for this system? See where I am getting at?
A funny sidenote: The first chapter of the german wikipedia article about school is "criticism on school".
I mean, why was school as an institution established? Forgive me if I will copy from wikipedia excessively now... But it all is already there. The article tells us that "A school is an institution designed for the teaching of students under the supervision of teachers". Well, nothing new here, right? But it gets better. The first school which resemble the ones we have today were.. well, honestly, schools exist since we invented writing. Which is why we invented schools. And.. WHY does nobody like school? Every teacher has to fullfill his curriculum. He or she has to get marks. And he or she has to do that with several classes. Which in turn consist of 20-30 pupils. Well. So much for "enlightening young minds"...
In tribal societies, children have finished their education at the end of puberty. I once read an article about young people and why they seem to be so "lost" and dont know what to do with their lives... The article drew connections to tribal societies, where, at the end of your puberty, you were told: Okay, you are an adult now and have all the rights and responsibilities of an adult, too. Nut for us, this clear line is never drawn. Well, the most obvious choice might be age 18, but why? You are now officially allowed to vote... Thats not really life-changing for most people, right? And you still could be totally dependent from your parents. And, of course, no two children are the same...
Anyway, when those children become adults, they have learned everything they need to survive. They could survive on their own, if every other human being on our planet vanished overnight. We cannot. I do not know one person, even someone I have never met, who is capable of doing this. Not. one. person. Do I really have to elaborate on that? For the sake of it, I'll do it. Just ask yourself these questions:
Do you know plants that grow where you live that are edible?
Do you know the plants that are poinsonous?
Do you know how to make a weapon? Out of the materials your surroundings (no, NOT your room) can supply you with, of course.
Do you know how to hunt for animals?
Do you know how to ?
So... a tribal child age thirteen can answer all these questions... and more.

And what does this lead to? After school, you have to find a way to get food. Which is to get money, which in turn means finding a job.
And that is what schools are there for.
Let me make that clear.
SCHOOLS ARE HERE TO REGULATE THE FLOW OF YOUNG COMPETITORS INTO THE JOB MARKET
(Thats not all, but I will elaborate on this point further before introducing the others)
Imagine... 150 years in the past. How many years did children spend in school? Something around nine years, probably. Only a small percentage went to school longer, and those are the people who went on to become lawyer or physicians (= The ones who actually needed it). Later, the standard was to go to school eight years, no more exceptions. What job can a person of today get with eight years of school? After WWII, twelve years became normal and dropping out earlier was disencouraged. And today, they tell us that everyone should consider college... Even longer.
And now imagine... We make everyone leave school after eight years.
What will happen?
Our job market would simply go down. There would never be enough jobs for all these people.
Yeah. So the school system makes the job market smaller by making us useless longer. But, of course, they cannot let us do nothing in school. So they created subjects, and tests, what not to make it appear that we do something actually MEANINGFUL. But this is an illusion. As I have proven earlier, you do. not. Actually. Learn. ANYTHING. But hey, at least now it looks like we are doing something...

And here comes another purpose of school:
Think about things you buy that adults would never buy...
Dolls, going to the cinema, music (well... I hope you understand what I mean here), music players, computers, video games, magazines, trading cards, etc.
All this stuff has to be paid. But since you do not earn money, this money comes from your parents. And a huge industry is created by this money. All those people working there are to a great extent dependant on our spare time.

But HEY, at least school prepares the kids for their job, right? ... right? Ummmmm... No. You do not learn skills that you will need in your job. You will learn the history of whatever part of the world you live in. Does that help you start a business? No? Thats right.
Do you know WHY that is? Imagine that we would revise our school system so that everyone would be able to gette rbetter jobs at once. So, who will do the lower echelon jobs? Because, the people who did those jobs now also want this better job. Who would you give the job? Propably the older person, since he/she already worked at your company. But then the graduates will STILL need to do the lower-position job... and ultimately, they would learn all the skills they need for the higher-position job anyway. So what use is there in teaching children those better skills? None. Everyone imagines that would be a great idea, but in reality they do not want that, because nobody likes losing his job to a graduate, right?

So, we conclude: school does not serve the people, it serves the economy.

And now I ask you: What is your personal opinion about school?

 

[JRCB]

Hmmm a very interesting point of view. But, I am inclined to agree. I am actually trying to find a survival course somewhere so I know what to do if the shit really hits the fan.

Anyway, school is kind of crappy for me. I hate it, but it gives me time for some certain things I rather enjoy. And it's pretty good for meeting people.

 

[Susano]

Wow, you've obviously thought extensively on this. I would agree on a lot of those points, and I find that if you have an interest in a subject, you normally do well in it because you pay attention more.
I found [a href=http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/10/14/rsa-animate-changing-education-paradigms/]this[/a] video on the subject very interesting. ^^

(Geez, I haven't posted in so long. Feels weird man)

 

[spartan1077]

AK! No TLDR Now I have to read it

-----after reading------
Holy. Shit. You have thought about this more than anyone else. But I have to agree on pretty much every point! I'm in high-school and I find myself questioning things such as;
Why is it mandatory to take Geography, History, and PE when I want to go into medical studies?

And the reason for most of the kids I know that get 60s in class is because of lack of motivation(and also drugs and excessive alcohol). You don't meet much people that will mater later on and you don't gain any life-lasting relationships. High-school is mostly a place to be filed through. But the problem with it is that they should be failing the people under 70% but they don't because "every child deserves a chance"...I know people who get 50s in every class and they still take academic courses(the highest level) and they are still encouraged to go to college. Those people shouldn't be able to go to college...

And on the survival skills, I only don't know the answer to the plants ones. I know how to make a weapon(or grab my sword) and I have a vague idea on the usage of traps and how to use them(cadets taught me all that---as well as marksmanship) but I'd be screwed if there were no animals around.

 

[Hawkseraph]

Wow, you've obviously thought extensively on this. I would agree on a lot of those points, and I find that if you have an interest in a subject, you normally do well in it because you pay attention more.
I found [a href=http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/10/14/rsa-animate-changing-education-paradigms/]this[/a] video on the subject very interesting. ^^

(Geez, I haven't posted in so long. Feels weird man)

Thanks for the vid, man! Imma gonna try and make my teacher show that to our class.

 

[Berethond]

I know the answers to all the survival skills questions. I did wilderness training for a few years in the boy scouts.

Also, here's something you should read, OP <url=http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm>it's about how schools harm us.

It's very in-depth.

 

[rabidmidget]

Personally I believe in knowledge being an end in itself, aka: it does not need to be a means for some other objective for it do be deemed of worth.

I mean, although knowledge of history will probably never help you in an interview, it seems important for people to know of the general events of WW2.

 

[internetzealot1]

Pretty good points. I have a friend who is a teacher, and he says that most of what you learn in school won't be useful in the real world, but that its actually just a sort of practice for when you need to start learning how to do your jobs. And I've figured that the only reason most schooling is important is because of competition. Think about this: Two candidates apply for the job. Its a simple job, and requires no more than a basic ability to follow directions. One candidate has a high school education, while the other one has a college education. If they both work for the same pay, who do you hire? It might as well be the one with the higher education, right?

 

[spartan1077]

Personally I believe in knowledge being an end in itself, aka: it does not need to be a means for some other objective for it do be deemed of worth.

I mean, although knowledge of history will probably never help you in an interview, it seems important for people to know of the general events of WW2.

WW2=A dictator(Hitler) for unknown reasons(all historians disagree on reasons) grew into power of Germany and declared war. They lost! A lot of jewish people and non-jewish people were killed. What else is there? Do we really have to know that Hitler was against mustard gas to build a house? Do we have to understand Germany's economy at the time in order to bake a cake?

 

[Hawkseraph]

Personally I believe in knowledge being an end in itself, aka: it does not need to be a means for some other objective for it do be deemed of worth.
I mean, although knowledge of history will probably never help you in an interview, it seems important for people to know of the general events of WW2.

The problem is see here is that, yes, that would be totally cool, but the fact is that people do not know. They just don't. I could ask my history class tomorrow, and no one would know what Verdun is. Okay, mabe some FPS gamers would know the D-Day, but that spretty much the end of the line. They just do not care enough to memorize it.

And I agree with your views on knowledge, but we must not get our own POV to assume this for others. They think other things are more important. So we have to accept that and look for solutions.

-snap-

Yeah... but I'd really hate to have spent four years of my live just for that... right?

 

[zehydra]

Contrary to what OP has said, you DO actually learn a LOT in school, it just isn't memorized to the point where we could actually use it, unless we continue going down a certain academic path.

Although, I do think the education system is an utter mess and used simultaneously as a tool to instill American (I'm american) propaganda into children's heads. (Ex: Every morning before class, we were supposed to look at the flag and pledge allegiance to it. It was very prayer-like. I did this for 12 grades, from when I was 7 until I was 19.)

 

[Ayrtonh]

Wow. I am in agreement with you. I am in high school right now and I am prepared and am very excited to become an animator and hopefully open an animation business. But! In grade ten I had finished all ONE of my schools programs to become an animator. And it only barely touched flash. I wonder why I have to learn about P.E, chemistry and others when they have little to no use for my Career path. Sure some little things from Physics or Bio might help, and I can understand why we need to learn language... But why do I need to know about Napoleon's great feats or any other person? Even if I am told to animate something about these guys/girls, I could easily get a book. Or read the script they give me to follow... Anyway, I think they put us through school for more lengthy periods of time so that we can work the lower class jobs if we need to. Hell, my last boss told me not to become an animator cause I could obviously never make it (Pshhh...) and to stay working with him. He was also sexist and racist by the way. Anyway /endrant.

 

[Chappy]

I believe my notes are right one this, I think this view is very close to what I have noted as Marxism.

Basically the Bourgeoisie, people who control production where said by Marx as 'The people who own the ability to produce have control of the society' and as such I believe he said that Schools and teachers in school had the job of how to teach us the Proletariat how to deal with boredom to better prepare us for life in the workplace to keep the production going.

As well as this Schools are to inforce the idea of hard work now and reward later in life eg. You work hard in school you get a good job. You work hard in that job you have a nice retirement.

So in essence the Bourgeoisie need schools to teach the students how to deal with work later in life to keep their Production going so they can keep control of the Working class population.

Please excuse and correct if I'm wrong, only been doing Marxism for 2 lessons.

 

[rabidmidget]

Personally I believe in knowledge being an end in itself, aka: it does not need to be a means for some other objective for it do be deemed of worth.

I mean, although knowledge of history will probably never help you in an interview, it seems important for people to know of the general events of WW2.

WW2=A dictator(Hitler) for unknown reasons(all historians disagree on reasons) grew into power of Germany and declared war. They lost! A lot of jewish people and non-jewish people were killed. What else is there? Do we really have to know that Hitler was against mustard gas to build a house? Do we have to understand Germany's economy at the time in order to bake a cake?

Notice the word "general", people don't need to have an in-depth knowledge in everything, but neither should they be ignorant to the fact that such a war existed, without history, the past can be changed by those in power.

 

[spartan1077]

snip.

Those in power have already changed history. What we are learning in school is the opinions along with recorded facts. And the thing is, the winners get to record it and not all facts are recorded.

 

[Hawkseraph]

I believe my notes are right one this, I think this view is very close to what I have noted as Marxism.

Basically the Bourgeoisie, people who control production where said by Marx as 'The people who own the ability to produce have control of the society' and as such I believe he said that Schools and teachers in school had the job of how to teach us the Proletariat how to deal with boredom to better prepare us for life in the workplace to keep the production going.

As well as this Schools are to inforce the idea of hard work now and reward later in life eg. You work hard in school you get a good job. You work hard in that job you have a nice retirement.

So in essence the Bourgeoisie need schools to teach the students how to deal with work later in life to keep their Production going so they can keep control of the Working class population.

Please excuse and correct if I'm wrong, only been doing Marxism for 2 lessons.

Hm, interesting. My thoughts were not inspired by Marxism, but I can agree with this statement. Bacause If you have been through 13 years of boredom, well, 50 more wont be able to shock you very much anymore, right?

 

[Dastardly]

snip

You're romanticizing tribal cultures to an incredible degree, largely because your selected author does the same. You're also underestimating what children learn in school beyond the simple content.

You're right that a lot of it has to do with assimilating children into the economic culture, but teachers, by and large, want it to be more than that. And we work toward that. The problems only persist as long as uneducated parents and businessmen are running education, with teachers getting nowhere near the driver's seat.

See, in our society, the school has to do a lot to make up for the incredible shortcomings of a great many parents. Without that, these parents still wouldn't be doing the job, so we wouldn't be able to function in the way this idealized "tribal society" does. The school isn't the problem. The lack of parental accountability is.

Schools have a lot to offer, and teachers have a willingness to provide that. Business men get in the way, and weak administrations that buckle to parental pressure when "Mom doesn't like when the teacher tells her son to stop punching other kids."

Basically, the point of view you've expressed drastically oversimplifies both sides of this--the schools and tribal societies. The ideas need a lot more time in the oven before they are fit for real discussion.

 

[Serenegoose]

I think schools are already entirely too concerned with the economy as it is. "Don't take X, you'll never get a job doing X" pretty much sums up the entire education philosophy of the west. Schools should be more concerned with harnessing an individuals skills and creativity than telling them all to learn english, maths, a few sciences, and then go off to university so they can get a good job, and what they're actually interested in is secondary to this entire process.

 

[Blue_vision]

I'll agree with some of the points you posted, and disagree with others.

Firstly, school is an important institution to have if just to give kids a process to socialize by. And it's great for that. I love school, mostly because of interesting teachers and, of course, seeing friends every day with new things to talk about, and I know plenty of people that really don't have much of a problem with it (this is ranging from about grade 8-12,) and plenty that like it.

But there are some problems. Firstly is using the western school model we have as the be all end all. There are plenty of other opportunities for kids to learn, socialize, and be disciplined. I personally believe that school should be a lot shorter and replaced by a societal model which lets students live ordinary lives. I very much see it as a way to get people into the home>work>home>work>sleep cycle that'll last the next 50-odd years of their lives. And that's something that needs to be broken, not just for students but for broader society in general.

However, you seem to go a step further and say that school is some machine designed by evil people in high places to keep us working and paying. This isn't the case. School is based on a principle that lifelong learning and proper education are necessities to a good society, and that's true. Everybody should be literate, media-savvy, able to do simple math, and most importantly know how to be inquisitive and interested in the world around them. School teaches them that.

However, there is a problem that school shoots too broadly, and is a one size fits all kind of solution. There should certainly be institutions to teach kids, but perhaps not as nonanimitic as the current school systems. I'd say that for starters, school should be shortened to give students more time for their lives. That's important, because it precedes a societal shift towards more living, less working that we need. All you need to do is ensure that those early students are still actually learning. Challenge them with relevant assignments and homework. Class time should be time for discussion: talk with your teacher about something in their subject that you want to learn more about, talk with your class about the content, figure out real-world uses for it, etc. This is something that needs to be in place.
Lecture is also an important part of teaching and learning, and I think that should be introduced as a separate part of the education system. Schooling provides discussion and hands on material, while lectures are extra-cirricular kind of activities, open to anyone if they're willing to listen. Whether it's a high school student, university student, retiree or middle aged farmer, educational lectures should always be available outside of the curriculum. We already have a form of that in speakings from individuals, but it's not quite a standardized academic practice in the way university lectures are. Free, public-paid lectures would be a great way of encouraging lifelong learning and also give people means to express their viewpoints and personal knowledge. This kind of idea flows with that of documentaries, wikipedia, some aspects of Youtube, and so on.
Finally is the certification. As much as I wouldn't like to admit it, society needs some form of certification. But I'd like to think that doesn't need to come with a year long university course costing thousands of dollars. Certification, too, should be a relatively separate aspect of the whole schooling strand, and should be in-depth and specialized enough that it reflects the certification accurately. I.e. apprenticeship for a certain field, or a work session with a mathematician, physicist, etc, for a maths or science degree, etc. Standardized tests for earlier learning is fine, but there comes a point and complexity of work that passing a high school or university course shouldn't amount to handing in a paper and writing a test.

So here: Education is great. It isn't some government conspiracy to fuel money to the big corporations. That's just what it's ended up doing, because society in general is flawed. If anything, it's the other way around; the only reason school asks for everything is because today's jobs ask for everything. The only reason school takes so much damn time is because jobs today take so much damn time. It just needs some changes in its methodology.

Not sure if that's the kind of answer you'd like OP, but it's my opinion on schooling and education.

 

[GLo Jones]

ATTENTION! WALL OF TEXT AHEAD.

Heya fellow escapists,

So in school we read the book "My Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn. In case you dont know, go check it out.. it's one of the most interesting reads I've ever had... and I love reading. The book won the one-time Turner tomorrow fellowship for "showing a way to solve the problems of our time" (or smth like that).
Now, school gets some attention in this book. I am not sure if I can deliver you with a good enough summary, since it relly builds off of the whole book. so, again, read the book

But I will try to do my best here and now. Basically, Quinn says that our society doesnt really work.

Well. I'm really sorry, but I nearly stopped reading there.

There is absolutely no reason to think 'our society' (by which I assume you mean the developed world) doesn't work. What is it's purpose? I think it's (universally) to keep us organized, and help maintain the coordination and efficiency necessary to compete with natural predators/rival tribes/other nations. I also believe the schooling system serves multiple purposes within this.

It helps to familiarize us with the basic structures of a work environment, you have an overseer to obey, fellow workers to cooperate with, and tasks you must complete, regardless of your view on them. It improves your basic problem solving skills, your arithmetic, and your general knowledge. All of this is required to help us compete with those from other 1st world countries. Exams and tests are merely methods of measuring how well we're doing compared to last year/the next best country.

Granted it is far from perfect, but it fits neatly into a system vastly larger than itself. If you're going to change schools, you'll have to change our current society itself. Like you said, the school system and economy go hand in hand, but I wouldn't say one causes the other, they've developed side by side.

Finally, you're comparing us to tribesman, and talk about how we're lacking in necessary skills, but if you consider the societies of our differing ways of life, and therefore the needs of our different systems, we're still really not different from them. Our economies compete between nations just like tribes compete for resources, and the educations of these societies reflect that.

Basically, while our schooling system may be an aid for the economy, I don't see anything wrong with this, and definitely don't see anything wrong with our society.

(I hope this makes sense, I am tired)

Edit: I'm seeing some very basic Marxism being thrown around here. I may have to leave before my head implodes.