The Sexualization of Women in Comic Books

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Jake0fTrades

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trooper6 said:
Buchholz101 said:
This isn't me being sarcastic, a legitimate question. How old are you?

And back to the original topic. We both have our opinion, and it doesn't seem very likely that either of us is going to change the mind of the other. Agree to disagree?
I'm 38, turning 39...and looking at your profile...I see that you are 15. Eep! Ignore everything I said that involved recommending you look at things you are not legally old enough to look.

But that you are not legally able to buy porn makes me think of something. Thinking about the sorts of poses they put women in in these books, like this one:


It just looks to me like a lot of the hero books are porn-lite standins for guys who can't yet legally buy porn.
I'd like mainstream comics to be a bit more welcoming to people besides young straight guys.

I'd also like to have more mainstream non-hero books, like the now departed Ms. Tree or Warlord, but that's another topic.

And I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. :)
My profile is outdated, I'm turning 17 in a few months. Don't sweat prompting me to look up "Despair" though. I may be young, but I don't think something like that is going to mess me up for the rest of my life.

Glad to see this won't turn into another pointless internet shouting-contest. Thank you for your time.
 

DarthSka

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The biggest flaw to her argument is that she says men aren't sexualized, just shown as muscular. Uh, that's how men are sexualized: portrayed like having the body of Greek gods. That's the stereotypical sexual feature that men have to deal with (Twilight anybody?). It's usually frowned upon to say, but that's just ingrained in us. Those are the basic sexual features looked to for survival and reproduction. Women looked for larger, muscular men to protect and provide for her and their offspring. Men looked for an ideal mate that would provide the ideal offspring and provide proper care for them. It's what we unconsciously look for: both sides. Women are just as guilty of this stereotype as men, especially in media portrayal. Do I care? No, but I am aware of how it works.
 

SilentCom

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Women have been sexualized in pretty much every medium as far as humanity has been around. I'm not saying its right but I am saying that comics aren't an exception.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Grospoliner said:
I think its rather irrelevant given that most comic book women can shatter worlds beneath their rather awesome powers. In fact, please correct me if I am wrong, but Death is personified in virtually all comic book franchises as female. When women get to be the ultimate force in existence I don't think they have room to complain about leotards and g-strings.
Um, since women are the ultimate power (death itself) in comics as you say, doesn't that mean they have the perfect place to complain about any damn thing they want, or everything dies?
 

brunothepig

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BonsaiK said:
spartan231490 said:
BonsaiK said:
The picture fails to make its point because men and women are culturally sexualised differently. A guy being sexualised does look unrealistic, but doesn't look like that.
This is a very good point. I also think that the idealization of men is no less detrimental. In other words, I don't think that it's anything for women specifically to complain about but I think that men should complain just as much.
That's funny, I think both sexes should stop complaining and just read their goddamn comics.

Humans are sexual creatures with sexual thoughts, so we sexualise ourselves, and each other. This is normal. That is all.
I was gonna quote your first post, say "what he said" then add that I don't really see how it's a big deal, I'm not at all offended by all the men being all muscular and shit, and tell everyone to stop complaining... Then you said that too.
Are... Are you me?
 

Paragon Fury

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Canid117 said:
Ilyak1986 said:
For instance, would people classify Nova (from the Starcraft universe) as sexualized?

Yeah a little.
Also I feel I shall link these articles because I hate all of you and your spare time.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
and
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicBuild
Dat ass.

10 years in the making.

Sorry, had to say it.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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Well, its not like women are the only ones being sexualized.

In pretty much every genre, medium, whatever, the protagonist and good amount of the male cast really have six pack abs, cleft chins, and a sort of aggressive aura of them. I don't know how many times I've seen women swoon over guys like that.
( And don't get me started on those bishonen with their flawless faces and pretty hair! AAAHHHH!)

Men are seaxualized just as such, and in my opinion even more then women ( Not to say it doesn't happen to me, but really, how many ugly male main characters can you name?)
 

sageoftruth

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Mid-Boss said:
Worgen said:
ehh, in comics it seems like both sexes get pretty sexualized, just in different ways, women tend to have big tits and small waists and guys tend to be on steroids.... altho both of those sexualizations might be aimed at guys, I mean as I understand it only so much muscle attracts women, more then that is really just for guys
Yeah women, at least the ones I know, don't read comic books drooling over steroid muscles. Most women I've asked actually find that kind of muscle to be a turn off since it's so unnatural looking and "freaky".

No the muscle guys are men's interpretation of the perfect guy for guys to impose themselves onto while the women are men's interpretation of the perfect girl for guys to dream of their imposed persona getting it on with. It's entirely aimed at guys.

You want girl fan service? Read Fruit Basket or Ouran City Host club or the new Young Justice show on cartoon network. That's girl fan service.

They're not drooling over Colossus or Stone Cold Steve Austin. They're drooling over Kid Flash and Edward Cullen.

That's very generally speaking though since everyone has their own tastes. But you get the point.
I was just thinking that myself. Most women I know like pretty boys rather than shaved bears.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
Well, its not like women are the only ones being sexualized.

In pretty much every genre, medium, whatever, the protagonist and good amount of the male cast really have six pack abs, cleft chins, and a sort of aggressive aura of them. I don't know how many times I've seen women swoon over guys like that.
( And don't get me started on those bishonen with their flawless faces and pretty hair! AAAHHHH!)

Men are seaxualized just as such, and in my opinion even more then women ( Not to say it doesn't happen to me, but really, how many ugly male main characters can you name?)
See my above post: they're not being sexualized. They're designed to fit wit our image of what a dominant male should be. Those characters are male fantasies, not female.

Ok, I don't get it. How are they not sexualized?

I mean, most of the time, muscles and a handsome face is what women want in terms of a males physique. Seen all the guys with their shirts off most of the time? Seen Spartacus? God of War? The cast of Twilight? The cast of Katekyo Hitman Reborn?

I don't see how they are not sexualized, though I think I may have trouble with the difference.

Also, 1,000th post! yea!
 

Sean Steele

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I'm not a real big comic book fan and this is one of the reasons why. Whenever I have a comic fan look at me and shout. "THIS IS REAL LEGITIMATE ART WITH ARTISTIC MERIT!" Then ten minutes later verbally drool over Supergirl's outfit and how he would like to be flying behind that. (Actual conversation so no one can really accuse me of hyperbole on that.)I just kinda sigh and hope that videogames don't fall into the same trap. Gaming did kinda fall into that hole a lot but lately all but the campiest games seem to have been digging their way out of it. (I.E. Mortal Kombat and Duke Nukem.)
 

SUPA FRANKY

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
Ok, I don't get it. How are they not sexualized?

I mean, most of the time, muscles and a handsome face is what women want in terms of a males physique. Seen all the guys with their shirts off most of the time? Seen Spartacus? God of War? The cast of Twilight? The cast of Katekyo Hitman Reborn?

I don't see how they are not sexualized, though I think I may have trouble with the difference.

Also, 1,000th post! yea!
Look at your average male superhero. Most of the time, they're wearing suits tight enough to shame a dominatrix, yet they have no crotch bulge. Look at the picture I posted of Superman above: he has no penis. His legs simply join his body, with nothing between them. Sexualization is not simply emphasising body characteristics, it's emphasising sexual characteristics.

Thus, Superheroines tend to have huge breasts, large round behinds, and thighs that could crush marble. The sexual aspects of women that men typically love (legs, behind, and boobs) are exaggarated. Usually, they wear costumes that highlight these exaggarations: tight PVC with plenty of cleavage, that give full shape and definition to each breast, and that leave nothing to the imagination regarding the, er... definition of inbetween her legs. They're basically walking, talking sex-dolls. Superheros, on the other hand, are physically exaggarated, but not sexually so. They tend to have extremely non-prominent crotches, their bums aren't subject to the same levels of ass-crack prominence, they tend to make more 'virtuous' poses, as opposed to the Playboy-level fair of their sistren. Their costumes generally expose very little flesh: Superman wears a blue jumpsuit, Batman/Spiderman/Captain America all wear all-in-one coverall suits. If they were sexualised, they wouldn't hide their skin, they'd expose it.

The physical exaggaration is due to male envy, not female lust. Look at those characters you mentioned, especially Spartacus and Kratos. They are characters designed and written by men, in shows/games designed primarily to entertain men. Kratos represents the kind of man many gamers subconsciously wish to be- physically strong, sexually confident, able to overcome all dangers that beset him. Every woman I've met whose seen Kratos thinks he's an ugly, pugnacious pig. He has little appeal for real women, because women by and large don't get turned on by lumbering cavemen. Look at the other example you posted: Twilight. The main character in that film, Edward Cullen, is the antithesis of characters like Kratos: He's more delicately built, pale, and in touch with his emotional side. That's how he's got his worldwide sex appeal. By not being a physically exaggarated giant of a man. Women (again, by and large) go for men with something to offer mentally, not just physically.
Well, I guess you have a point. But just because men aren't on all fours doing the catwalk doesn't mean they aren't sexualized. I guess it means their sexualized in a different way...

Wait, I think I got the two confused again.
 

Nieroshai

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You see, when men are sexualized they are sexualized through either making them prettyboys or making them unbearably manly. This is every superhero male ever aside from non-human or distinctly mutant heroes.
 

GiantRaven

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With comics, what I want to see is artists stop drawing naked people (both male and female) and then colouring them in. Actually draw the goddamn costume.

Along with that, stop drawing only two people; the ridiculously muscled male and the big-boobed supermodel female. People in real life come in different shapes and sizes. Why is it so damn impossible to represent that in comics?

And stop giving artists like Ed Benes work. Seriously. Fuck that guy.


Treeinthewoods said:
I hate this kind of thing. You want to rail against scantily clad women as entertainment? Don't buy comic books that do it, enjoy your Ghost World and WE3 and leave me alone to enjoy Spider Woman's incredible rack.

If it keeps selling it keeps showing up, maybe just accept that you are in the minority asking for less cleavage and go fight a battle worth winning.
I love that you deride two hugely critically acclaimed comics seemingly for not having scantily clad females whilst talking up another I've never any widespread critical acclaim for.

Seriously, it's way better for comics as a medium if people are enjoying Ghost World and We3 more than Spider Woman.

thaluikhain said:
Here you have both Batman and Batwoman following similar cases, and both have just been thrown out of vans, and adopt the same pose on the ground. Batwoman here is being more or less exactly the same as Batman (she's the one on the bottom), being no more sexualised than Batman is. Alot of Batwoman's run on detective comics was like this. Alot of the time, you could swap Batwoman for Batman and it'd make no difference (well...except when going into her backstory as coming from a Jewish military family and being kicked out of the US army for being a lesbian).

I think using the current Batwoman as an example of non-sexualisation of females in comics is ridiculous. This is a character whose nipples quite blantantly show through her costume. A character that when she removes said costume, revealing her to be wearing a top underneath, said nipple imprints are nowhere to be seen.

trooper6 said:
But that you are not legally able to buy porn makes me think of something. Thinking about the sorts of poses they put women in in these books, like this one:

Those are fanart pictures, and are not representative of actual content within comic books. Not that I'm saying there isn't questionable content within some comics, but you could find better examples.
 

Treeinthewoods

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GiantRaven said:
Treeinthewoods said:
I hate this kind of thing. You want to rail against scantily clad women as entertainment? Don't buy comic books that do it, enjoy your Ghost World and WE3 and leave me alone to enjoy Spider Woman's incredible rack.

If it keeps selling it keeps showing up, maybe just accept that you are in the minority asking for less cleavage and go fight a battle worth winning.
I love that you deride two hugely critically acclaimed comics seemingly for not having scantily clad females whilst talking up another I've never any widespread critical acclaim for.

Seriously, it's way better for comics as a medium if people are enjoying Ghost World and We3 more than Spider Woman.
I love how you assume I don't already love/own the complete Ghost World and We3 collections and read them regularly.

You see, for someone who truly has a problem with scantily clad women there is already a rather rich selection of incredible art available so why do you focus on what Jean Grey, Emma Frost or Poison Ivy are wearing? Why would you spend time bitching about something you won't change when you have a series as good as We3 with none of that "rockin' hot bew-bage?"

Sidenote - Oh yeah, I forgot Spider Woman is terrible because there is not enough critical acclaim for her comics. Guess I'll have to give it up and go back to Section 8, the Great Lakes Avengers and No Hero. I hate it when I accidentally like something that Comic Book Guy would disapprove of.
 

DarthSka

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
DarthSka said:
The biggest flaw to her argument is that she says men aren't sexualized, just shown as muscular. Uh, that's how men are sexualized: portrayed like having the body of Greek gods. That's the stereotypical sexual feature that men have to deal with (Twilight anybody?). It's usually frowned upon to say, but that's just ingrained in us. Those are the basic sexual features looked to for survival and reproduction. Women looked for larger, muscular men to protect and provide for her and their offspring. Men looked for an ideal mate that would provide the ideal offspring and provide proper care for them. It's what we unconsciously look for: both sides. Women are just as guilty of this stereotype as men, especially in media portrayal. Do I care? No, but I am aware of how it works.
Thing is, as has been mentioned above, while men are stereotyped in comics, it's really not in a sexual way.

Thick muscular limbs, mountainous pecs and abs you could break rocks on have little to do with sex. It's much more a male power fantasy: characters like Superman embody the alpha-male physique and mindset many guys subconsciously wish they had. By and large, women don't find ridiculously pumped men sexy, but we get jealous of characters like that because we recognise that they could easily beat us in a fight. In essence, characters like this:

represent the male fantasy of power, not a female fantasy of sex. Need proof? Check out Superman's crotch in that picture I posted. It's non-existent. His legs simply join together, and there's a slightly flat gap between them. If Superman was sexualized to the same extent as female characters in comics, he'd have a bulge in his pants out past his knees, and his arse cheeks and nipples would be visible through his suit. Whenever a man wears a skin-tight suit, his behind is simply a featureless, slightly rounded block that attaches to his legs. Whenever a woman wears a skin-tight suit, however, her arse cheeks are viewable as if there's no fabric there in the first place. Just check out that picture of Nova above.

In fact, the occasions were famous male super-heroes have been sexualised to the same degree as their sistren caused so much wailing from fans, artists and designers now take special care not to evoke it again. My example:



In this film, you had a design for Batman, Robin and Batgirl that deliberately played up sexual aspects. Batman's suit had nipples, the costume designers put extra emphasis on the crotch reasons, in the movie you see the suit riding up Batman's arse... in short, Batman and Robin subjected its two male leads to exactly the same kind of sexualisation that the comic industry has applied to female characters for decades. And fans screamed and called the Batman franchise "ruined" as a result. It's OK to show Batgirl in a sexualised way, in a tight leather suit that emphasises the characters boobs and behind, and leaves no imagination as to what's inbetween her legs. In that sense, the film was staying true to the comic. But by applying that same mentality to the male characters, the film earned the ire of fanboys everywhere who failed to see the double-standard.

Until Superman has a red G-string on top of his blue suit, not a set of crotchless boxers, until Marvel puts Spiderman thrusting with his junk on the front of his comic, until Batman has a whip and handcuffs to go with his shiny black suit, then its simply unfair to say male characters are just as sexualised as female characters. They are certainly exaggerated in their physical attributes, and they certainly play on fantasies. The trouble is, those are our fantasies, the fantasy of being the dominant male, not female fantasies about being ravished by a man as large as a Cave Troll. I think you'll find many women prefer their men more toned and sculpted rather than out-and-out ripped.
Just because they aren't involved with sexual reproduction itself doesn't mean that they can't be used to sexualize men just like women. Again, it's different features. For example, breasts have nothing to do with sex itself, just the feeding of offspring. However, they are one of the most, if not the most, sexualized images in human history. The same with the female posterior. It is also the same with the muscles of a man. As males, our main sexual feature isn't as prominent and in view as some of the female features (breasts, butt), but the muscles can be quite visible under clothes. It's the same with women. The main sexual feature is not really visible in outline, so others are focused on. Just like women, these muscles are used in sexualization, because they are what sexually atrracts females to males on a physical level.
 

Dags90

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DarthSka said:
Just because they aren't involved with sexual reproduction itself doesn't mean that they can't be used to sexualize men just like women. Again, it's different features.
They're still completely correct that most women do not find the amount of muscle most superheroes have attractive. And most men overestimate the amount of muscularity women find attractive by as much as 20-30 lbs. The ridiculously huge chests and arms don't appeal to women. I would full agree that they're male fantasies, which isn't to say they aren't sexualized. But they're sexualized from a male perspective. More Men's Health than Cosmo.
 

Seanfall

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I'm sorry what? I was too busy oogling Power Girl's tits. *sits and reads more power girl* Hmm...boobies. *power girl's fist fly's out of the page into my nads* OOOF!