The Souls series does inventory management brilliantly by... (RPG discussion as well)

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Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Not having you manage your inventory!!!

Inventory management is something I've grow to just completely loathe in RPGs/loot games. It just brings any game to a grinding halt having to stop and manage your inventory. Being able to pick up and carry a near infinite amount of different items doesn't improve the core or any game. Witcher 3 has literally at least 2 different chicken sandwiches you can carry, you don't have to manage food but still. The major problem that arises in just about any of these types of games from Witcher to Fallout to Borderlands is that you're constantly picking up new weapons/gear and almost all of them are worthless to you. You're walking around with an arsenal of guns/swords that are useless to you but pick them up and carry them to make money. It also creates needless busywork like finding a new sword that does 5 more damage so you switch it out, then find a slightly better new sword an hour later. The reason I'm actually excited to find a rare/good drop in Borderlands is so I can use that gun for a few levels before it becomes useless.

When you look at a Souls game, the genius is that you get souls from enemies to use as you please whether it's for just plain buying what you want or leveling. You don't get every enemy's weak ass sword and shield, you merely get what you need and nothing else, and you don't even have to pick it up to boot [that's the cherry on top :) ]. Then, when you do find loot in a Souls game, it's unique, it's special. If you want to use a scythe, you either find it or buy it and that's it. You don't find another scythe in an hour that does 10 more damage, you level up the one you have.

Video game RPGs have lost their way with regards to how a character increases their damage. Weapons play far too much of a role with regards to increasing damage and that's the crux of the problem. Even in DnD (the RPG blueprint), your damage is dictated by your level. As a rogue, your sneak attack gains more dice; as a ranger, you gain more shots in a round as you level; as a wizard, you can inflict more damage by gaining access to better spells. If your a level 5 ranger in DnD, you don't get say a level 10 bow that you have to hold onto until level 10 to use. But that's how it works in Witcher or Borderlands. Moving damage onto weapons vs character leveling has caused inventory management to be such the pain and waster of time it is now. Your character should be improving thus raising their inherent damage output vs better weapons doing that. Such inventory management does nothing to improve the core game and only needlessly bogs it down with basically fake complexity.

How much better would your Borderlands experience be if there was just one of every type of gun like a Souls game? Then, you wouldn't have you and 3 friends going to sell everything after every quest while equipping new guns and shields.
 

Seishisha

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While i do agree with some of the sentiment, the aquisition of new loot is often a driving force for the player, as in what can i get next? and a means to an end, incrementing stats and so on. While neither of these systems are bad per say i can certainly understand it feeling out of place in some games. Borderlands in particular being a FPS always seemed odd to me that it has that loot system.

I can't speak for borderlands but in the witcher (W3 specificly) i agree if you loot everything you'll soon get bogged down with uselss vendor trash. However most of the 'good' equipment has to be crafted rather than found, and it can all be upgraded and used throughout the game, a fine balance in my opinion.

Speaking of dark souls even though for the most part choosing a weapon comes down to selecting move set, there are alot of weapons with basicly the same moveset but different stat requirments, it's less about picking the sword or axe or whatever that has the best damage and more about picking the one that suits your statline, which i personly realy like. There is however always one weapon that has the highest attack rating, armor with the highest defence and catalyst with the highest magic adjust. Those examples though are less important over all when the basic starter sword can be just as viable as a weapon crafted from and end game boss soul.

After saying all that though there are certainly somce games that i just can't imagine without the loot treadmill, somthing like diablo would be very odd, to me atleast, without the loot progression, i guess context is realy important with this sort of thing.
 

iwinatlife

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Not To rain on your parade to heavily but yo do get random drops in souls games and weapons do have requirements. You need to level a lot to be able to use the Zweihander for instance. Or if you get lucky fighting the black Knight in DS1 and he drops the sword you need a lot of levels to wield it effectively. No it doesn't say "achieve level X to use this sword" Instead it say " you need x strength, y dexterity and z faith to use this sword."
And I dont know about you but as i am playing through ds1 so far I have picked up no less than 5 broken straight swords and a whole set of hollow armor.I know I dont have to loot every body but if I am looking for say the balder side sword I do
 

PacDwell

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iwinatlife said:
You need to level a lot to be able to use the Zweihander for instance.
Not really. The Bandit can level up twice as soon as they reach Firelink and use it - which still only puts them at level 6 (which is what the Deprived class starts at). The Pyromancer needs 4 levels investing at Firelink - which only puts them at level 5 to be able to wield the Zweihander.

It's easy to take Dark Souls inventory management for granted...but playing other games which have weight limits shows that inventory management is just a chore. I like the way in DS that you can sell stuff that you've discarded in the bottomless box too.

Having said that I also like games which give you a minimal amount of inventory - such as Gears of War. Two main guns and a sidearm...and that's yer lot. No inventory to cock around with.
 

CaitSeith

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*Remembers the countless Hollow armors and short swords that were stored or fed to Frampt*

Yeah, sure.
 

Xprimentyl

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CaitSeith said:
*Remembers the countless Hollow armors and short swords that were stored or fed to Frampt*

Yeah, sure.
Haha! Yep, this.

I don't too terribly mind Dark Souls' inventory system; wouldn't call it the best or the worst, but the one thing that's irked me from the beginning is how they list duplicate items individually. I understand you can have two identical pieces each with different durability making them technically unique (i.e.: one at 250/300 and another at 300/300,) but when they list 10 piece of identical armor, all in the same, perfect state of repair individually, it makes navigating the menus a chore. That's why I decided long ago that I only keep one of everything and feed duplicates to Frampt. The ONLY exceptions being rare drops like Black Knight items.
 

Saelune

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Its really a matter of many things. Borderlands has RNG mix-and-match weapons, so "collecting them all" makes no sense, while the Souls games have specific weapons.

As for damage, it depends on realism and what sets weapons apart. Again, Souls makes more of a point of -how- the weapon is used, and varying stats, while say, Skyrim it is mostly a matter of tiers. DnD makes little difference to weapons like either Souls or Elder Scrolls. Sure there are special effect materials like silver, but a barring enchantments, a longsword is a longsword is a longsword.
 

DoPo

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Phoenixmgs said:
Video game RPGs have lost their way with regards to how a character increases their damage. Weapons play far too much of a role with regards to increasing damage and that's the crux of the problem. Even in DnD (the RPG blueprint), your damage is dictated by your level.
It's really funny you should mention that because it's so very wrong. You're referencing D&D 3.X here, which has been influenced by video games to get to this state. Older versions? They exhibited exactly the problem you are describing because of how they worked - you need equipment to "counter" the enemies. As a fighter you need a +1 sword or you are not able to hurt enemies which have protection (which is pierced by +1). Once you deal with that, you need a +2 sword for the next set of enemies who come in and can only be hurt by that. And paladins? They were basically on a quest to find the Holy Avenger - the sword that some of their class features depend on.

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to address another thing

Phoenixmgs said:
If your a level 5 ranger in DnD, you don't get say a level 10 bow that you have to hold onto until level 10 to use.
No, you don't because by all of the GM advice, the player shouldn't be getting a level 10 item when they are level 5. Sure, a DM could do that and there is nothing in the rules that says "the players are unable to equip this" but at the same time the rules for the DM (or suggestions, if you wish) would disallow handing out the item in the first place.

All in all, I just find the D&D comparison quite funny as you're praising an edition that has been criticised for being "too videogamey"[footnote]Yes, before even 4e[/footnote] and you're praising some of the features that were used as examples of that.
 

Dalisclock

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Xprimentyl said:
CaitSeith said:
*Remembers the countless Hollow armors and short swords that were stored or fed to Frampt*

Yeah, sure.
Haha! Yep, this.

I don't too terribly mind Dark Souls' inventory system; wouldn't call it the best or the worst, but the one thing that's irked me from the beginning is how they list duplicate items individually. I understand you can have two identical pieces each with different durability making them technically unique (i.e.: one at 250/300 and another at 300/300,) but when they list 10 piece of identical armor, all in the same, perfect state of repair individually, it makes navigating the menus a chore. That's why I decided long ago that I only keep one of everything and feed duplicates to Frampt. The ONLY exceptions being rare drops like Black Knight items.
There's also the downside of not being able to do so until you meet frampt. Until then, you either tote the hollow armor sets or stuff them in the box to declutter the inventory. Really, that's the only point of the box in Dark Souls. It would have been more useful in demons souls due to the weight limit but it's a minor flaw.
 

Bombiz

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aren't you the person that keeps saying Dark Souls isn't an RPG? or that it's a very bad one?
also
If your a level 5 ranger in DnD, you don't get say a level 10 bow that you have to hold onto until level 10 to use.
I mean if you ever did get a lvl 10 bow I don't think you would be restricted by lvl to use it.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Ahhh the inherent flaw in RPGs. I used to think weight limits made things more tactical and interesting, but ultimately decided it counter-intuitive if you can never physically see the treasure trove of stuff you're carrying anyways. I had fun going through Uncharted 4 recently in a large sense because it doesn't have this issue. What you see is what you get; procure guns and ammo on site and apply/switch out as needed on the fly. Simple, but effective.

The element of gamey fantasy is needed when dealing with huge RPG inventories. It isn't perfectly done in any game, but frustrations and tedium is definitely minimal in Dark Souls vs something like The Witcher or Fallout for me. In those games it almost seems like inventory management is a meta game in itself. In Souls, while lists are a bit of a drag, the categories are distinct enough to keep things fairly tidy. I usually only use the BB for gear or items I don't see myself needing readily available, and simply dropping anything I don't want as I go.

What I do think could improve - and I haven't played 2 or 3 yet so maybe it's gotten better - is stat change notification in terms of what you have and what you plan to get. Being at a vendor or blacksmith and having to back out of the menu to see what x will do to y compared to z is simply clumsy and inefficient.
 

Specter Von Baren

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My favorite is how Resident Evil 4 did it. I dunno.... it's just like.... there's something pleasing to me about getting something and then finding a way to fit it into my inventory and then organizing so I know where everything is.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
Its really a matter of many things. Borderlands has RNG mix-and-match weapons, so "collecting them all" makes no sense, while the Souls games have specific weapons.

As for damage, it depends on realism and what sets weapons apart. Again, Souls makes more of a point of -how- the weapon is used, and varying stats, while say, Skyrim it is mostly a matter of tiers. DnD makes little difference to weapons like either Souls or Elder Scrolls. Sure there are special effect materials like silver, but a barring enchantments, a longsword is a longsword is a longsword.
The only point of actually getting great loot in Borderlands is for end-game purposes. That awesome purple or orange drop you found at level 15 will be useless by level 20 so what's the point? Say I find just the kind of sniper rifle I'm looking for at level 10, what's the point of it becoming useless in a couple levels and making me find another one, then another one, etc?

How damage works in Borderlands is even at odds with its game design. The game is obviously designed for 4-player co-op and its most fun played with friends. I already mentioned how the game comes to a grinding halt when everyone has to stop and manage their inventories (switch weapons/gear out, sell useless shit, fast-travel back & forth, etc). But then you and all your friends have to stay at levels very close to each to play together. If I'm level 25 and my friend is level 20, we can't play together and have fun; it's either going to be missions in his game are far too easy for me and I'm basically one-shotting enemies or he joins my game and he can't kill anything. Both issues are directly caused by how fast damage increases.

Everything should IMPROVE the game experience.

DoPo said:
It's really funny you should mention that because it's so very wrong. You're referencing D&D 3.X here, which has been influenced by video games to get to this state. Older versions? They exhibited exactly the problem you are describing because of how they worked - you need equipment to "counter" the enemies. As a fighter you need a +1 sword or you are not able to hurt enemies which have protection (which is pierced by +1). Once you deal with that, you need a +2 sword for the next set of enemies who come in and can only be hurt by that. And paladins? They were basically on a quest to find the Holy Avenger - the sword that some of their class features depend on.

No, you don't because by all of the GM advice, the player shouldn't be getting a level 10 item when they are level 5. Sure, a DM could do that and there is nothing in the rules that says "the players are unable to equip this" but at the same time the rules for the DM (or suggestions, if you wish) would disallow handing out the item in the first place.

All in all, I just find the D&D comparison quite funny as you're praising an edition that has been criticised for being "too videogamey" and you're praising some of the features that were used as examples of that.
DnD 3.X is considered the best by most people. I don't recall the last time I've played DnD (outside of trying 4e for a few sessions) as my group moved to Pathfinder (more refinements to 3.X) and you really only need +1 weapons.

The question I'm asking is how does constantly getting slightly better weapons and spending hours managing inventories improve any game?

Bombiz said:
aren't you the person that keeps saying Dark Souls isn't an RPG? or that it's a very bad one?
Most video game RPGs are not RPGs. There's an Errant Signal video explaining how role-playing in Fallout 4 is basically non-existent. Fighting enemies for the vast majority of a game (Dark Souls) makes a game a combat game, not an RPG. RPGs shouldn't focus on combat. I just use the term like everyone else so everyone is on the same page. Plus, the thread is about inventories and how they only serve to only bring down the experience.

https://www.gnd-tech.com/content/949-Role-Playing-Games-A-Dying-Breed/view/3

hanselthecaretaker said:
It isn't perfectly done in any game, but frustrations and tedium is definitely minimal in Dark Souls vs something like The Witcher or Fallout for me. In those games it almost seems like inventory management is a meta game in itself.
There should be no frustration or tedium let alone an acceptable amount. When you think about it and analyze it, constantly getting slightly better weapons/gear doesn't help the core game at all. The only reason I can even give for it being there is for Skinner box purposes.