The stealth queen continued

[Thebabyboom]

I'd like to thank you all for you replies very pleased with the outcome, Now in my spare time i like to design games ive made alot in my time from numerous genres granted none of them ever get made but whatever i don't design em for that, Ever since i can remember my biggest challenge has been to design a stealth game and now i think im ready obviously the protagonist will be a woman but that will not define the story, just thought id let you know and i'll keep you up to date if any of you guys and goyles have any ideas let me know. Oh and noone better give stupid ideas like "wouldn't it be cool if she could seduce people" so preferably people who've actually played a proper stealth game in there time without out so much as a single body count you know cheers.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

...But seriously, being able to seduce people would be cool. Plus its pretty much one of the defining traits of the "femme Fatale" in spy fiction. Hell, if Bond is allowed why shouldn't a female character be?

The female Commando in Commandos 2 was doing it way back in 2001.

 

[Panzervaughn]

...But seriously, being able to seduce people would be cool. Plus its pretty much one of the defining traits of the "femme Fatale" in spy fiction. Hell, if Bond is allowed why shouldn't a female character be?

The female Commando in Commandos 2 was doing it way back in 2001.

But shes not a bond or Nikita. She's a shadow. You can't bang a shandow.

Speaking of which. Do stuff with shadows, you always feel badass crouched in a shadow.

 

[Thebabyboom]

Thank you for gettin what i mean and yes shadows will be involved, Im a big chaos theory fan

 

[Ordinaryundone]

...But seriously, being able to seduce people would be cool. Plus its pretty much one of the defining traits of the "femme Fatale" in spy fiction. Hell, if Bond is allowed why shouldn't a female character be?

The female Commando in Commandos 2 was doing it way back in 2001.

But shes not a bond or Nikita. She's a shadow. You can't bang a shandow.

Speaking of which. Do stuff with shadows, you always feel badass crouched in a shadow.

But if she is going to spend the entire game sneaking about and being invisible, why is being female important? Might as well go gender-neutral.

 

[Thebabyboom]

Cos it's the character behind it everyone remembers characters like Garrett fisher and snake, and since there are barley any memorable stealth queens i thought it would be interesting especially with ladies likes yelena fedorova hanging around as inspiration

 

[go-10]

is it going to be modern times, the past or the future. Or is she a time traveling ninja/spy/whatever they're called in the future

also if you want ideas disguises and costumes has something that has never been implemented

 

[Panzervaughn]

...But seriously, being able to seduce people would be cool. Plus its pretty much one of the defining traits of the "femme Fatale" in spy fiction. Hell, if Bond is allowed why shouldn't a female character be?

The female Commando in Commandos 2 was doing it way back in 2001.

But shes not a bond or Nikita. She's a shadow. You can't bang a shandow.

Speaking of which. Do stuff with shadows, you always feel badass crouched in a shadow.

But if she is going to spend the entire game sneaking about and being invisible, why is being female important? Might as well go gender-neutral.

The same reason that it was important that Samus was female... before she got all baby hungry.
Or Faith in Mirrors Edge, to a similar degree.
The mere fact that its NOT important is sometimes important ^_^

 

[SnakeCL]

I think you're looking into it from the wrong perspective. The game and design and plot should create the character.

That way, you have a character who fits into the story and setting, male or female. Instead of something bordering on the "cypher" style of game protagonist.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

...But seriously, being able to seduce people would be cool. Plus its pretty much one of the defining traits of the "femme Fatale" in spy fiction. Hell, if Bond is allowed why shouldn't a female character be?

The female Commando in Commandos 2 was doing it way back in 2001.

But shes not a bond or Nikita. She's a shadow. You can't bang a shandow.

Speaking of which. Do stuff with shadows, you always feel badass crouched in a shadow.

But if she is going to spend the entire game sneaking about and being invisible, why is being female important? Might as well go gender-neutral.

The same reason that it was important that Samus was female... before she got all baby hungry.
Or Faith in Mirrors Edge, to a similar degree.
The mere fact that its NOT important is sometimes important ^_^

The problem here is that the TC is trying to shoehorn in a female protagonist for no reason other than that she is female. Good stories don't work that way.

 

[thehermit2]

When you say stealth game I automatically think of Thief 2, but maybe that isn't what you had in mind. I've been waiting for a modern update of that game for years. Although Thief 3 had a good story the gameplay wasn't nearly as smooth, and they removed some of the mechanics like rope arrows in favor of useless things like a special command to hide up against a wall. For a stealth game, the character should be able to move as smoothly as possible, and the mechanics should create as many options for what to do next as possible.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The problem here is that the TC is trying to shoehorn in a female protagonist for no reason other than that she is female. Good stories don't work that way.

You are looking at it the wrong way. You are basically asking the question "Why is the protagonist not male?" as if the defining normative for any protagonist is to be a man unless the protagonist needs a skill set that is archtypically female (such as being seductive). Good stories don't need men in leading roles to be good, it is just that a majority of stories contain men in leading roles and as such most good stories have men in leading roles.

Kate Archer was a strong lead not because she was a woman (even if the game pulled some gags and side-plots based on her gender) but because she was an assertive, quick witted and resourceful operative. Violette Summers was a strong lead because of her efficiency, dedication and indifference to violence and murder, not because she was a woman. Just to mention the two main stealth queens in modern gaming. As long as people, like you, only think of women in terms of female attributes and not as complete human beings we'll never get past the structural sexism that exists today.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

The problem here is that the TC is trying to shoehorn in a female protagonist for no reason other than that she is female. Good stories don't work that way.

You are looking at it the wrong way. You are basically asking the question "Why is the protagonist not male?" as if the defining normative for any protagonist is to be a man unless the protagonist needs a skill set that is archtypically female (such as being seductive). Good stories don't need men in leading roles to be good, it is just that a majority of stories contain men in leading roles and as such most good stories have men in leading roles.

Kate Archer was a strong lead not because she was a woman (even if the game pulled some gags and side-plots based on her gender) but because she was an assertive, quick witted and resourceful operative. Violette Summers was a strong lead because of her efficiency, dedication and indifference to violence and murder, not because she was a woman. Just to mention the two main stealth queens in modern gaming. As long as people, like you, only think of women in terms of female attributes and not as complete human beings we'll never get past the structural sexism that exists today.

I'm not asking "Why is the protagonist male", I'm asking "Why is the protagonist female"? The same way I'd ask "Why does Sam Fisher have a daughter?", "Why is Solid Snake a clone?", etc. Every choice you make in regards to character design is important, including gender. From what I can tell, the TC's idea for this game hasn't gone past "I want a stealth game with a female protagonist". Thats all well and good, but what makes this game different than other stealth games? If the entire game is "Its Thief with a girl instead of a guy" then honestly I don't care. I wouldn't buy it. Give me a hook, some reason why this protagonist is different than the others. If she is female, thats a start, but if thats the ONLY difference then you might as well have just made the lead a cardboard box for all it matters. Would have saved on animators too.

A stealth game where you played as a woman, where the objective was to infiltrate high society and corporate situations and use your charisma, charm, and "feminine wiles" to accomplish your objectives? That would be interesting, not only because it hasn't been done but also because it gives a very good reason why the protagonist should be female. A male character would work as well, but a woman would be more believable in the role, just as how I'd be much more inclined to accept Sam Fisher in his role than a female version.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I'm not asking "Why is the protagonist male", I'm asking "Why is the protagonist female"? The same way I'd ask "Why does Sam Fisher have a daughter?", "Why is Solid Snake a clone?", etc. Every choice you make in regards to character design is important, including gender. From what I can tell, the TC's idea for this game hasn't gone past "I want a stealth game with a female protagonist". Thats all well and good, but what makes this game different than other stealth games? If the entire game is "Its Thief with a girl instead of a guy" then honestly I don't care. I wouldn't buy it. Give me a hook, some reason why this protagonist is different than the others. If she is female, thats a start, but if thats the ONLY difference then you might as well have just made the lead a cardboard box for all it matters. Would have saved on animators too.

A stealth game where you played as a woman, where the objective was to infiltrate high society and corporate situations and use your charisma, charm, and "feminine wiles" to accomplish your objectives? That would be interesting, not only because it hasn't been done but also because it gives a very good reason why the protagonist should be female. A male character would work as well, but a woman would be more believable in the role, just as how I'd be much more inclined to accept Sam Fisher in his role than a female version.

You deny doing what I am claiming you do and then you go on to do it again in your second paragraph. You are defining women by female attributes and by extension feel that a role that doesn't require female attributes shouldn't have a female character. Why shouldn't the game have a female protagonist? "Because it doesn't fit the narrative" isn't an acceptable answer, because gender has (or rather should, in modern media) precious little impact in much the same way that skin color has. You wouldn't ask things like "Why is Sam Fisher white?" or "Why is Dom hispanic?" because that's only superficial traits just like gender.

By setting the norm as white male you are exercising stealth sexism at its' very worst. You are probably not doing it intentionally, but this is the strucutural discrimination that women and people of other ethnicities face daily. It is especially prevalent in media, just look at the men to women ratio in lead roles in Hollywood or try doing the Bechdel test on some big movies. Until we get over the notion that "If it doesn't need a woman we should use a man" we still have a long way to go in regards to structural sexism.

 

[RemuValtrez]

Outside of the main protagonist being a female, is there anything else you have set in stone for it?

Is it going to be a thief type game where you go in for loot for some greater cause?
Or an assassin type game where your job is to end your targets' life without being noticed and go on your way.
Or a mix of both.

Either way, if you are going for a stealth game, you have to realize that using charm is something that fits stealth type people very well, male OR female. Gender doesn't matter at this point. The thief that can charm his or her way past guards, or conning their way in as a delivery person to get closer to what they are after are essential traits to stealth game play, it makes you feel as though you ARE being stealthy, infiltrating their base without them knowing.

It is not sexist to think that a Thief/Assassin will use their charms and wit to get what they want, it's not gender biased. Gender does not matter when you are using charms. Only when you make it so that is the ONLY way to do it does it make it dip into the bias pool.

There are just too many tools a stealth game can use to call any one of it biased, as it would be your choice to use them (I'd strongly suggest there being a choice of how to go about doing your job). Be it true stealth, conning or charm. All of them are useful and they will all help develop the type of character you are trying to play.

 

[Thebabyboom]

I'm not asking "Why is the protagonist male", I'm asking "Why is the protagonist female"? The same way I'd ask "Why does Sam Fisher have a daughter?", "Why is Solid Snake a clone?", etc. Every choice you make in regards to character design is important, including gender. From what I can tell, the TC's idea for this game hasn't gone past "I want a stealth game with a female protagonist". Thats all well and good, but what makes this game different than other stealth games? If the entire game is "Its Thief with a girl instead of a guy" then honestly I don't care. I wouldn't buy it. Give me a hook, some reason why this protagonist is different than the others. If she is female, thats a start, but if thats the ONLY difference then you might as well have just made the lead a cardboard box for all it matters. Would have saved on animators too.

A stealth game where you played as a woman, where the objective was to infiltrate high society and corporate situations and use your charisma, charm, and "feminine wiles" to accomplish your objectives? That would be interesting, not only because it hasn't been done but also because it gives a very good reason why the protagonist should be female. A male character would work as well, but a woman would be more believable in the role, just as how I'd be much more inclined to accept Sam Fisher in his role than a female version.

You deny doing what I am claiming you do and then you go on to do it again in your second paragraph. You are defining women by female attributes and by extension feel that a role that doesn't require female attributes shouldn't have a female character. Why shouldn't the game have a female protagonist? "Because it doesn't fit the narrative" isn't an acceptable answer, because gender has (or rather should, in modern media) precious little impact in much the same way that skin color has. You wouldn't ask things like "Why is Sam Fisher white?" or "Why is Dom hispanic?" because that's only superficial traits just like gender.

By setting the norm as white male you are exercising stealth sexism at its' very worst. You are probably not doing it intentionally, but this is the strucutural discrimination that women and people of other ethnicities face daily. It is especially prevalent in media, just look at the men to women ratio in lead roles in Hollywood or try doing the Bechdel test on some big movies. Until we get over the notion that "If it doesn't need a woman we should use a man" we still have a long way to go in regards to structural sexism.

Thank you very much at least someone gets it, what i meant was i didn't want her gender to define the story for example there's a disease that only affects men so she has to do it whatever that would be stupid, An just to be clear IT'S A STEALTH GAME why would you seduce or charm in a stealth game your main objective is to not be seen this aint deus ex or vampire jeez

 

[Thebabyboom]

Outside of the main protagonist being a female, is there anything else you have set in stone for it?

Is it going to be a thief type game where you go in for loot for some greater cause?
Or an assassin type game where your job is to end your targets' life without being noticed and go on your way.
Or a mix of both.

Either way, if you are going for a stealth game, you have to realize that using charm is something that fits stealth type people very well, male OR female. Gender doesn't matter at this point. The thief that can charm his or her way past guards, or conning their way in as a delivery person to get closer to what they are after are essential traits to stealth game play, it makes you feel as though you ARE being stealthy, infiltrating their base without them knowing.

It is not sexist to think that a Thief/Assassin will use their charms and wit to get what they want, it's not gender biased. Gender does not matter when you are using charms. Only when you make it so that is the ONLY way to do it does it make it dip into the bias pool.

There are just too many tools a stealth game can use to call any one of it biased, as it would be your choice to use them (I'd strongly suggest there being a choice of how to go about doing your job). Be it true stealth, conning or charm. All of them are useful and they will all help develop the type of character you are trying to play.

Right now there is not much set in stone i am working on the story some ideas have come up as for mechanics i'm choosing between shadow play and cover to cover sort of thing, But to me the fun part will be designing the all round theme and feel of the game this will in turn affect's the costume and characters especially the guards

 

[DEAD34345]

Uh... how about, a Russian female spy in the cold war?

Really though, the character and setting don't tend to matter as much as the actual gameplay, and if this is just going to be Chaos Theory with a female protagonist and a different setting, then it's kind of pointless.

 

[ScoopMeister]

She's a shadow. You can't bang a shandow.

Speak for yourself.
Try it. Seriously.