The Steam/Valve arguement, (Question! not starting a flame war)

[SajuukKhar]

There is a website that does digital trade-ins: Green Man Gaming. Basically, you buy the game, then, when you're done with it, you can trade it in either for something else, or store credit. Or, you can pay to keep it. It's not entirely unlike what Redbox and Netflix does.

I can see it working if the rewards for doing so outweighed the reward of scamming people out of a game for free. In Steam's case, there's the whole idea of playing on official servers, playing with friends, earning achievements, and while certainly people inclined to steal won't really think twice, it makes people not inclined to steal further away from a position where they would be. You can't convert a pirate, but you can keep people from becoming one. It's about trust - both the consumer with the company, and the company with their consumers.

I don't think its unreasonable to assume that there's a solution to what makes it, as you say, "broken at a fundamental level."

That unfortunately only works in a universe were all games are heavily multi-player based.

So unless you are advocating that we go 100% multiplayer only, that solution doesn't work for many, many, games out there.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

There is a website that does digital trade-ins: Green Man Gaming. Basically, you buy the game, then, when you're done with it, you can trade it in either for something else, or store credit. Or, you can pay to keep it. It's not entirely unlike what Redbox and Netflix does.

I can see it working if the rewards for doing so outweighed the reward of scamming people out of a game for free. In Steam's case, there's the whole idea of playing on official servers, playing with friends, earning achievements, and while certainly people inclined to steal won't really think twice, it makes people not inclined to steal further away from a position where they would be. You can't convert a pirate, but you can keep people from becoming one. It's about trust - both the consumer with the company, and the company with their consumers.

I don't think its unreasonable to assume that there's a solution to what makes it, as you say, "broken at a fundamental level."

That unfortunately only works in a universe were all games are heavily multi-player based.

So unless you are advocating that we go 100% multiplayer only, that solution doesn't work for many, many, games out there.

Well Green Man Gaming hasn't gone bankrupt yet so it sort of actually proves that it works for singleplayer games. And Netflix hasn't made any note of people copying their DVDs then sending them back, either. And you can copy games and DVDs from physical copies and no-one has really made a huge fuss about that. Anything on digital media can be copied, not just the downloaded stuff. Hell, how many people copied rented music? Rented VHS tapes? But it's still feasible to rent movies.

Making trade-ins worth trading a game in, but also not worth so much that you can always go direct 1:1 trade value, is a fine balance that a lot of companies have perfected. So even if you do rip the game then trade it back in for store credit, you aren't just living off of free games forever, but people who are being reasonable won't. I'm not saying that Steam's own advantages would work in 100% of cases, I'm just providing an example of people buying the game being offered a service that is arguably greater than those pirates are provided.

 

[Vigormortis]

I feel I need to address a few things:

- I had to register a physical DVD game on Steam to be able to install the expansions.

If a game box lists Steamworks as a requirement, and someone complains that they need Steam to run the game, then they aren't getting how this works. It's the equivalent of buying a PS3 copy of a game, and complaining that it doesn't run in your Wii or Xbox360.

Also, what game are you talking about here? With most games, many companies are moving to a purely digital form of DLC and expansions. It's a distribution decision that often saves time and money, for both the developer and the customer. So having a physical copy of the game, one that requires Steam to begin with, requiring you to download the expansions through Steam isn't surprising. Most developers aren't releasing physical discs of their expansions anymore.

- The "client" is an annoying loading delay and extra step even when I'm in offline mode.

Are you saying a few extra seconds of load time isn't worth the feature-set Steam offers in return? I mean, if it's that much of a bother to you, then fine. It's no skin off my bones. I can sympathize with your plight. But for most people, it's a tiny nuisance that comes with a lot of bonuses.

- I bought a game called Warp that required an Origin account + the Steam client to run.

This one baffles me. Which game required an Origin account AND a Steam account? I'm genuinely curious on this one. I'm not saying I doubt the validity of your statement, I'm just saying I've never heard of this before.

Still, this isn't really a Steam issue. If it was an EA game, then blame EA for requiring you to have two accounts for the game.

- That garbage system has become a badge of excellence so that people actually ask that some games be made available on Steam while they could play it without it. Insanity.

Garbage system is a tad hyperbolic, but opinion is opinion. Everyone's welcome to their own.

However, people preferring access to the systems, feature-sets, and other functions Steam offers over a vanilla copy of a game that has none of them is hardly "insanity".

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Making trade-ins worth trading a game in, but also not worth so much that you can always go direct 1:1 trade value, is a fine balance that a lot of companies have perfected. So even if you do rip the game then trade it back in for store credit, you aren't just living off of free games forever

Apart from the diminishing returns there's also the matter of it seeming like a lot of fucking around to get the same result as grabbing games off torrents. It's not like the hypothetical games gained from such a scam would be any more functional than downloaded cracked ones once a hack/crack was applied post-trade... not unless you're up to hacking Steam's activation and verification servers (and if you could do that, then you could just give yourself free games without the pissant scheming).

 

[Atmos Duality]

I've been bit by the DRM.

Wasn't able to play consistently for a couple of months because the minimal bandwidth requirement to connect to Steam and meet that little check wasn't taking (my ISP decided that "service" meant "when we feel like it". That has been rectified.)

I've also been locked out of my library when my connection failed (it refused to start in Offline Mode), though that happened on a very tenuous connection when I was on vacation this summer.

It isn't "draconian"; it works for me 99% of the time. Though when it fails, it is endlessly frustrating.

(incidentally, I learned about the Sleep/Hibernate trick last year. My friends and I were playing Terraria and my friend didn't have internet at his house at the time. So we would have to all pile into a car and nab free wifi from a McDonald's, Culver's or this one Laundromat down the street to appease the Steamworks DRM, then go back to his place)

Capcha: Corporate Tool Mode Activated

 

[zumbledum]

The "Pro's" of Steam usually are:
- convience/ease of use
- daily deals & sales
- library selection
- modding & customer support
- automatic patches
- it's not origin

And the "Con's" are:
- Draconian DRM
- "You DON'T actually own your games"
- Online/offline gaming
- "unfair" market share

Your thoughts?

-Hawk

for me its convenience and price mainly. and im the other way around on the issue of not actually owning the game. im untidy i loose disks or brake them. ive purchased many disk based games multiple times. now i dont have to have 200 boxes on my wall and i cant loose the disks so i only have to buy stuff once!
its also nice being able to access your library from any computer and with the cloud saving you even get your saved games to.
the auto patching and the cross game community features rock to , makes so many multiplayer games easier to organise.

 

[Assassin Xaero]

And the "Con's" are:
- Draconian DRM
- "You DON'T actually own your games"
- Online/offline gaming
- "unfair" market share

Someone has probably already brought this up, but I am so tired of hearing this bullshit. Yeah, you don't actually own your games, and you NEVER DID. It has always been that way with all kinda of software and it isn't only with software. Now, since someone (finally) realized that is how things work, everyone is going off acting like it is some new law that has been forced on everyone. Go to a store and by a CD, you don't actually own it, you just bought the right to listen to it. Sure, you have physical copy of it, but that is because digital distribution wasn't around until recently, and even then, some people still don't have internet.

 

[Vigormortis]

Too many assumptions and automatic reactions for me to bother replying, but it's just my experience. You can continue to feed and enjoy Steam if you like.

Assumptions and automatic reactions? What assumptions? What reactions? I responded to what you said. I didn't assume anything about it. Is this how people retort to having their statements refuted? As in, not actually providing proof or evidence of their claims and simply being dismissive and petulant towards the person questioning them?

You're right about one thing, though. Experiences will vary from user to user. It's the nature of software today. Not to mention human nature. But that's an existential, philosophical discussion for another day.

Oh well. Even so, I'll take your advice and continue to enjoy Steam. It's a fantastic service that has provided me and millions of others with untold hours of gaming bliss.

Though "feeding" it might be difficult. (I didn't know it consumed food) Perhaps you can tell me how to pass a burger or something through an ethernet cable? I'm afraid I don't know how to do that. Perhaps some form of quantum atomizer or something?

[sub]By the way, it's a bit silly to say "I'm not going to reply" within a message replying to another message. Just sayin'.[/sub]

 

[Pebblig]

I've never really had issues with Steam really, I'd rather play anything on PC through Steam rather than getting an installer on a disc.

It's nice to have everything in one place, cheap sales, game tracking and friends.

I can't really see any reason to dislike Steam?

(I has aboot 400 games and have had Steam for 2 years =D)

 

[ScrabbitRabbit]

The only thing I *really* dislike about Steam is the inability to play games until they're fully updated. Sleeping Dogs is currently sitting on a 3.3GB patch and I can't play it again until it updates. My internet is currently fairly slow so it'd take me a good couple of hours.

Not as bad as buying Shogun 2 retail and finding that it installed less than half of the game's total data :|

I dunno if the PS3/360 do this, but it's fuckin' annoying not to be able to play a game that was already working perfectly fine until I've downloaded another 3 fucking gigabytes.

 

[DoPo]

- I bought a game called Warp that required an Origin account + the Steam client to run.

This one baffles me. Which game required an Origin account AND a Steam account? I'm genuinely curious on this one. I'm not saying I doubt the validity of your statement, I'm just saying I've never heard of this before.

Well, it says right there - Warp [http://store.steampowered.com/app/102850/]. You can save a step if you buy it from Origin, though - the Steam description does say that you need it, too.

 

[Vigormortis]

Well, it says right there - Warp [http://store.steampowered.com/app/102850/]. You can save a step if you buy it from Origin, though - the Steam description does say that you need it, too.

My question was intended to seem rhetorical, though I admit I worded it improperly. My bad.

I was just baffled why a game purchased on Steam would require an Origin account.

 

[Something Amyss]

Also, I agree with the refunds. Though, I must add that I can appreciate that it isn't quite as simple a process to grant a refund with purely digital mediums. (no physical product to return, etc, etc)

You can still generally get a refund from a movie theater, despite there being no physical product to return. They can't take your memories back.

The larger obstacle seems to be the fact that publishers see digital as a purer profit stream and do what they can to guard it.

 

[Vigormortis]

You can still generally get a refund from a movie theater, despite there being no physical product to return. They can't take your memories back.

The larger obstacle seems to be the fact that publishers see digital as a purer profit stream and do what they can to guard it.

Yes, but paying to see a film at a theater isn't quite the same as buying a game to play at any time at your own leisure.

If you "purchase" a film via netflix, for example, barring any odd circumstances you generally can't get a refund.

With physical products, it's easier. With purely digital products, it's not as simple.

Regardless, I think a form of product refund or exchange could be implemented into most DD services.

At least, in theory.

The bigger issue, of course, is getting the publishers and developers to all agree with the refund method.